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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28366930 - 06/20/23 10:29 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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I seem to see a lot of overlap between your perspective and the one from the default space Theory paper that I linked you. I'll point out that the author of that paper admits that while it's very good at answering soft questions of consciousness it does and likely will invariably fail to answer the hard question.
I'm not even trying to suggest that this so-called hard question of consciousness can be answered or that it's a sensible question to begin with.
I don't know much but I do know that it's been proven for over a century that there are true propositions that cannot and will never be provable/proved. So I don't go around with this expectation that I'm going to be able to understand everything about what's real by trying to represent it with symbols or sound waves. A lot of materialists use the term god of the gaps with derision and there's an extent to which consciousness could be one of these gods of the gaps. Nevertheless those gaps show up every time we try to capture the entire set of truths in language
I do think there's an extent to which you're failing to 'see the [potential] forest for the trees [you tend closely]. And your trees are very beautiful and you've taken good care of them. Nevertheless. Forest?
Edited by morrowasted (06/20/23 10:41 AM)
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28366941 - 06/20/23 10:40 AM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
am not sure why you are a better dancer on ketamine, but I note that I dance more spontaneously and fluidly on LSD even without music.
so let me try to explain it a little more thoroughly. On the one hand you're saying that back propagation of signals depends in part upon hepatic fields. But the primary mechanism of information propagation through nervous tissue is the extra/intracellular ion-dependent electrical gradient. Presynaptic Calcium ion channels are opened by nmda antagonism allowing calcium to flow into the extra cellular space. Each ion carries a charge of two and thus the net charge difference is negative 4 intracellularly. When the extra cellular charge surpasses the intracellular charge of the following neuron, the same positively charged calcium ions flow into that neuron, which depolarizes it. Thus the signal from the thalamus to the cortex travels more quickly. All I'm saying is that this effect acts in concert with the ephepatic field effect that you describe as playing a pivotal role in back propagation to the thalamus. Therefore the total amount of time necessary for each CT Loop and for three or however many loops to happen will be shorter than usual, and your perceptual reflex will happen in response to sensory events more quickly.
Edit: I think I may have gotten it backwards. The signal from the cortex back to the thalamus is the segment of time that would be shortened. Either way the entire feedback loop is shorter but the first time I stated the opposite directionality which I think is incorrect. I need to poke back through the literature on psychopharmacology and pharmacodynamics of ketamine against general neurophys cuz I think I am making an error here somewhere but I can't pinpoint it yet
Edited by morrowasted (06/20/23 11:51 AM)
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28367075 - 06/20/23 12:17 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: I do think there's an extent to which you're failing to 'see the [potential] forest for the trees [you tend closely]. And your trees are very beautiful and you've taken good care of them. Nevertheless. Forest?
The Brain Forest of Dreams.
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morrowasted
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Quote:
the substrate of what is observed and the Observer are exactly the same thing then...
let me try this more expanded analogy to see if I can understand what you're trying to say. In a typical theater the screen and the projector are not connected to one another. Imagine A theater where the screen is connected to the projector. Imagine that the film in the projector contains the full spectrum of perception (which is to say the entire set of potential perceptual experiences). Imagine that the screen originally shows nothing Even though he projector light is shining. Now imagine that the screen is a single photo receptor. The screen will either flash white or black depending on whether whatever is on the film is closer to one or the other. And so forth according to my previous analogy.
The connection between these two things maps onto your CT circuit?
Even on this analogy I feel like I'm missing something. The screen isn't watching the projector or vice versa. What's happening on the screen appears determined by the circuitry of the connection between the two. but they're still just a screen and a projector. There's no need for a watcher to be there and yet there is watching. The movie is being seen whether or not there are any seers in the theater
How?
Edited by morrowasted (06/20/23 01:52 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] 2
#28367106 - 06/20/23 12:38 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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maybe just put out one question at a time or one post with 2 or 3 ideas in it. I am going to do a special drawing for you because I can see some gaps that I do not want to try to fill with words as the shape of the parts makes a big difference.

when a signal reaches the thalamus from the reticular formation from the body or from the ear or from the eye, the thalamic neuron (A) that receives the signal transmits the signal to its cerebral counterpart the cortical neuron (B) which when activated does 2 things. 1. it sends a Feedback signal back down to (A) - (this signal successively becomes weaker such that after 3 feed back loops it is not normally strong enough to reactivate the thalamic partner ) and 2. it BACK PROPAGATES a charge up through its dendritic arbor. That charge spreads through the surrounding neural tissue as an ephaptic field, and those fields are picked up by EEG.
Field strength from back propagation may be strong enough to activate a local pyramidal neuron (C), or constructive field interference may activate a pyramidal neuron that is less proximal.
A fractional charge is distributed by the pyramidal neuron widely through its 100,000 axon branches.
When a charged pyramidal axon branch touches a back propagating (active) cortical neuron it creates a memory spine (if there is not already one there)
When several (8 in the program) charged pyramidal axon branches reach a resting cortical neuron and they all have spines (meaning associative memory exists) then the cortical neuron is reactivated - it will back propagate charge and it will activate its thalamic partner.
(if the resting cortical neuron were recently active and not exhausted by extended looping, then half the number of branches with memory spines are required to reactivate the resting neuron - this produces the short term memory effect which can be reduced by getting stoned or emotional - losing track of what you were doing, and even in extreme cases of who you are.)
Back propagating is what cortical neurons do when activated, AND at the same time that they back propagate, they send a signal back to the thalamic partner. During sensation the thalamic partner is the source of the signal (Bottom up) and during perceptive reflexes the fields and the pyramidal neurons are the source of the signal (Top down) - however in either case it is the same kind of activation.
HOWEVER, in bottom up sensory activation, the thalamic neuron is activated in total, by an incoming feed, but in top down (perception) activation the thalamic neuron is activated on top. Hypothalamic GABAergic signals can suppress perception allowing sensory input that is not clouded by perceptive reflex cortical activation. This enables attention to sensation when necessary, and I have found that by sniffing - the olfactory bulb's proximity to the hypothalamus provides a momentary general pause to perceptive reflexes in favor of raw sensation.
______________________________________________ The hippocampus as part of the limbic system can flood the thalamus with neurotransmitter that makes the thalamic neurons more sensitive to the feedback signals so that as they get successively weaker, they are still able to reactivate the thalamic neuron. This describes the extended looping by emotional activation.
Serotonergic drugs act in the same way in the cortex keeping the cortical neurons responsive to successively weaker thalamic signals in a pulse train during longer feedback loops.
______________________________________________
keep the questions simple and I may be able to answer it reasonably, or maybe this drawing and explanation helped a bit.
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morrowasted
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Actually yes your explanation was extremely good and thorough and I don't have any questions that call what you.just claimed into doubt but I do have one comment and one question
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BACK PROPAGATES a charge up through its dendritic arbor. That charge spreads through the surrounding neural tissue as an ephaptic field, and those fields are picked up by EEG.
I was misunderstanding the term back propagate but this makes sense.
Quote:
The hippocampus as part of the limbic system can flood the thalamus with neurotransmitter that makes the thalamic neurons more sensitive to the feedback signals so that as they get successively weaker, they are still able to reactivate the thalamic neuron. This describes the extended looping by emotional activation.
I'm still missing the process where salient engrams become 'encoded' in the hippocampus such that future instances of limbic system neurotransmitter floods are altered over time.
Thank you for being patient and thorough. I think that your understanding of the hardware explains what determines the dynamics of [potential and actual] conscious content but I remain unconvinced that it says anything at all about the ontology of consciousness
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] 1
#28367234 - 06/20/23 01:21 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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morrowasted said: ...I'm still missing the process where salient engrams become 'encoded' in the hippocampus such that future instances of limbic system neurotransmitter floods are altered over time.
Thank you for being patient and thorough. I think that your understanding of the hardware explains what determines the dynamics of [potential and actual] conscious content but I remain unconvinced that it says anything at all about the ontology of consciousness
the hippocampus is not inovlved in memory at all - this fallacy is propagated by scientists who have proven that mice and rats show molecular deposits and cell growth AKA PLASTICITY when they learn tasks that are FEAR BASED. these "assholes" are making a mess of the science. Hippocampus does become more active when the creature is having FEAR based emotional activity (end of explosion in my head)
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sudly
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: @Sudly - which slower processes are you discussing?
The phonological and articulatory loop.
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redgreenvines said: The examples you provide of repeating a verbal phrase to yourself occur on a slower timescape of several seconds of shifting mental contents until the phrase repetition cycle resolves.
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28367242 - 06/20/23 01:28 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Interesting. So let's say that the hippocampus is involved in mediating only these fear based changes to plasticity. How does this relate to the function of the amygdala?
Are there non fear based changes to plasticity? In psychotherapeutics it's now commonly said that there's really just two basic emotional states, Love and fear. Let's suppose that is the case. Are these pyramidal neurons mediators of Love based changes to plasticity? Would make sense
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28367246 - 06/20/23 01:31 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Sudly, I don't understand the distinction you're making between the kind of loop between auditory cortex and a thalamus and other kinds of non pyramidal cortex and the thalamus? I see you saying that it's slower but other than that what are you saying is different about it? Why does that difference matter? Because that means it's the last bit of information to be selected for at the end of each loop? I thought visual information would be slower?
Like shouldn't the speed be smell then touch (then 'taste'*), then hearing, then sight, in decreasing order?
* Or is the distinction we make between smell and taste not really there? Or does taste follow smell and precede touch?
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sudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28367251 - 06/20/23 01:35 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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I'd say we are each individual organisms with lots of little organisms that make us up. The cells as such.
Suggesting there is one life sounds eerily panpsychic. Common ancestory isn't a single organism.
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sudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28367252 - 06/20/23 01:37 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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I haven't delved into the neural correlates of the phonological or articulatory loops yet, but I intend to.
Perhaps I'll find some clarity or turn the other way.
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sudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28367263 - 06/20/23 01:44 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: I'm not even trying to suggest that this so-called hard question of consciousness can be answered or that it's a sensible question to begin with.
Again, there is no hard question from my perspective.
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28367264 - 06/20/23 01:46 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I'd say we are each individual organisms with lots of little organisms that make us up. The cells as such.
Suggesting there is one life sounds eerily panpsychic. Common ancestory isn't a single organism.
It's not panpsychic. It's pretty simple dualism if anything. Things that are not alive do not become alive. Life is made of nonliving components. But non-living components themselves are not alive. A pool of water in a carbon/calcium crater is not alive even though thats most of what you are, or at least most of what your body's mass is.
I don't think that things that are not alive can have any kind of experience. I think that things that are alive can. I'm undecided on whether they necessarily do. The chemical soup that happens at ocean floor vents probably does not have a experience even though most of the components needed for one to eventually be possible are there.
When you eat something, you transform that thing into a portion of your body for a time.
The little bits and pieces are still nonliving bits and pieces. The little bits and pieces are not having experiences. they can be arranged into nonliving systems, like a rock. But they can also be arranged into living systems. Most of what you shit back out is not living either.
Explaining why I think that distinguishing between different lives rather than just envisioning a cosmos where is one nonliving system and one living system that appear spatiotemporally separate by 'space'.
Not convinced that space exists at all
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28367265 - 06/20/23 01:47 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
Again, there is no hard question from my perspective.
I mean so you can just keep doubling down like dennet there's definitely a question. You can say the question doesn't make any sense, and you can explain why. But you can't deny that there's a question. Even if nobody before me had asked it, I just did
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I haven't delved into the neural correlates of the phonological or articulatory loops yet, but I intend to.
to what end are you picking them out during this course of this dialogue then?
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sudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28367268 - 06/20/23 01:50 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Trees communicate with one another and are alive, rocks do not and are not.
I think using the term one life instead of single or group of organisms can be misleading or difficult to interpret.
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28367287 - 06/20/23 02:05 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: Interesting. So let's say that the hippocampus is involved in mediating only these fear based changes to plasticity. How does this relate to the function of the amygdala?
Are there non fear based changes to plasticity? In psychotherapeutics it's now commonly said that there's really just two basic emotional states, Love and fear. Let's suppose that is the case. Are these pyramidal neurons mediators of Love based changes to plasticity? Would make sense
I think the hippocampus is involved in both love and fear responses, and the plasticity aspect from those bunko experiments is nearly meaningless.
plasticity is a terrible term related to both neuron growth and development and to the ARC protein spines that appear when new memory is made. it is a terrible term but one that keeps reappearing in the literature about Hippocampus AND about psychedelics.
I am sorry I used it, I am just too annoyed about the hippocampus related memory researchers, AND many of the psychedelic neuroscientists as well. Personally I do not use the term I am specific about spine growth occurring on cortical neurons at synchronous activation only.
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redgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28367297 - 06/20/23 02:14 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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If you want to talk about trees and mushrooms (hyphae) communicating, and if it is not about dendritic trees, (arbors) or the psilocybin mushroom effects in our minds, please use a different thread.
I personally do not think there is memory or perception going on with forest trees and the fungi that help feed them and help extend their root effectiveness. I do admire the fine fibres of hyphae, and I must say they curiously do resemble (superficially) the white matter of the brain, but they are not equivalent to axon branches which effectively connect single neurons to 100,000 others enabling engram creation and reactivation.
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sudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
#28367314 - 06/20/23 02:31 PM (7 months, 5 days ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
Again, there is no hard question from my perspective.
I mean so you can just keep doubling down like dennet there's definitely a question. You can say the question doesn't make any sense, and you can explain why. But you can't deny that there's a question. Even if nobody before me had asked it, I just did
I explained what perspective would indicate there is no hard problem.
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If you believe in a very broad spectrum of shared experience, the hard problem doesn't exist.
Like being able to land on the same grain of sand over a myriad of beaches.
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I haven't delved into the neural correlates of the phonological or articulatory loops yet, but I intend to.
to what end are you picking them out during this course of this dialogue then?
To make a hypothesis and see if it can be falsified.
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morrowasted
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
#28367327 - 06/20/23 02:40 PM (7 months, 4 days ago) |
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Let's start from basic principles.
I can't speak for you but I can speak (type/re-Present). There is watching/thinking/sense happening.
Your contributions are very valuable RGV and I think for a while I was just trying to get more out of the thread that you were interested in talking about and misinterpreting you as a consequence. However I don't think you have explained away the phenomenon of The happening itself but I don't really get the sense that you care to and that's fine.
I guess I probably would have titled the thread perception 101. Consciousness is a lot more of a loaded word, sort of just like one step down and abstraction from God (if not just a lateral step) and that's probably the entire source us talking past and misunderstanding each other
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