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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
#4454935 - 07/26/05 09:51 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Wow, insightful posts, but I can't leave out a rant: If you negate your free will, you sure won't have any problems to submit on my will, have you ? I am sure you wont be pleased if anyone would treat you like an animal without free will or the freedom of conscious choice.
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
#4454984 - 07/26/05 10:11 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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i agree. free will being an delusion seems logical enough. very hard to accept, but trying to explain how free will would work brings so many problems.
-------------------- "Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: alsey]
#4455041 - 07/26/05 10:31 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Jeze, I will treat all of you now like in ancient history, where slavery was some outcome of these ideas.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4455247 - 07/26/05 11:32 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Jeze, I will treat all of you now like in ancient history, where slavery was some outcome of these ideas.
More like history's and your own misconceptions of these ideas. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
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No, it's all about the pressure I will present, to convince you of the evident cause of your actions
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4455416 - 07/26/05 12:22 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Wow, insightful posts, but I can't leave out a rant: If you negate your free will, you sure won't have any problems to submit on my will, have you ? I am sure you wont be pleased if anyone would treat you like an animal without free will or the freedom of conscious choice.
Just because I believe in natural selection and Darwinism instead of creationism, does that mean organisms (including humans) should have no rights simply because they are the products of finding a more stable genetic code?
The Darwinism of our ideas, the clash of many elements causes us to perceive ourselves as having choices and a wholely personal consciousness. Yet even if we don't have a controlled subjective free will, does that mean we should enslave and kill everybody? I don't follow the logic.
Not to mention that, looking at it from another angle, if the idea that we should kill and enslave everybody because of this theory tried to enter Darwinistic consciousness and fight for dominance of the mind, I doubt it would succeed, not only because it has no evidence but because it'd be horrendous for the survival chances of the self and the species. Anyone who carried this idea would probably die out as people got up in arms and had revenge in simply another act of Darwinism.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
#4455535 - 07/26/05 12:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Anyone who carried this idea would probably die out as people got up in arms and had revenge in simply another act of Darwinism That is, what we see everyday around in real live an in TV. Survival of the fittest.
...and thats a part of free will, to get out of that in a good way...
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
#4455569 - 07/26/05 01:01 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: Yet we're dealing with reality and using Occam's razor here. It is possible that some vastly unimaginable and unknown scientific principle may hook us up to some ethereal free will from another universe, but the evidence is lacking. I haven't "made up my mind" but I've looked at our current evidence and there is nothing there to indicate that the deterministic large-scale universe has room for free will.
I do not understand how any (empirical) evidence could be gathered about determinism or freewill? It seems to be mostly inductive reasoning.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (07/26/05 01:11 PM)
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swampthing
audioboy

Registered: 12/23/04
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like forest gump says... fate and us just 'floating by'(up to us) are both going on at the same time... awwwyeah
-------------------- ------------------- peace with everystep
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alsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4455973 - 07/26/05 02:39 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Jeze, I will treat all of you now like in ancient history, where slavery was some outcome of these ideas.
the fact that bad things happen doesn't mean that you are correct.
-------------------- "Gently return to the simple physical sensation of the breath. Then do it again, and again, and again. Somewhere in this process, you will come face-to-face with the sudden and shocking realization that you are completely crazy. Your mind is a shrieking, gibbering madhouse on wheels." - ven. henepola gunaratana
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psychomime
o_O



Registered: 05/16/05
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: crunchytoast]
#4456499 - 07/26/05 04:52 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
crunchytoast said:
i guess i don't understand - how come consciousness is something acting on the brain, rather the brain itself?
well what I got out of that Hameroff article is that the brain is a sorting mechanism for the proto-consciousness that Hameroff believes exists at the Plank scale and that a brain of a certain complexity will have the necessary processing power to process consciousness. i guess what he's trying to say is that consciousness is a basic property of the universe and that beings of a certain complexity can embody that consciousness. a very beautiful idea. whether the platonic ideals also exist at that level is a matter of personal belief on his part.
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crunchytoast
oppositional

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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: psychomime]
#4458423 - 07/27/05 12:56 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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yes- i muddled through that so many times, your reading of it is much more lucid (once again )
i still feel like he's saying the brain is separate from consciousness- like it accesses external consciousness through microtubules- and that this is less parsimonious than saying the brain is consciousness.
-------------------- "consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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raytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
#4458941 - 07/27/05 03:56 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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setting free will aside. darwin does not control ideas.
think darwinism, then lamarckism. which one fits better the evolution of ideas?
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: alsey]
#4459723 - 07/27/05 10:36 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I thought it was obvious to everyone, that personal freedom is strongly dependend on free will/free choice.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: raytrace]
#4459734 - 07/27/05 10:39 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darwinism n. A theory of biological evolution developed by Charles Darwin and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/d/d0033100.html
Evidently Darwin does not control ideas, but Darwinism is not Darwin.
Lamarckism was disproved in biology many years ago, and I also can't see it being true for the evolution of ideas. If you examine ideas, you'll notice that many ideas don't just continue in the same direction (like the elongating of the neck of a giraffe, to use the Lamarckian analogy) but rather have small almost chaotic variations that the viewer of the ideas wouldn't expect. As evidence accumulates, the idea can shift in any odd number of ways, many of which Lamarckism wouldn't seem too fit to describe in my opinion.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4459746 - 07/27/05 10:46 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: I thought it was obvious to everyone, that personal freedom is strongly dependend on free will/free choice.
What is personal freedom? Where does freedom come from? Can't freedom be taken away by a stronger power- for example, someone imprisoning you and torturing you for years until they broke you, where does free will come in?
It doesn't. Your freedom can be overpowered if you're not strong enough to resist the expansion of others, and in that case freedom is simply a temporary way of living, not some absolute law that requires the illusion of free will.
I thought it was obvious to everyone, that without absolute morals, there is nothing to stop us from doing evil. Well, that's true, there is nothing to stop us in the first place, and the same with your statement- personal freedom may rely on free will, but that's why neither of them exist except as ideas to help our survival. It is simply a battle of strength to see who wins out, not of any illusion of freedom, because in nature there is no freedom- there is only survival and the lack of it.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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crunchytoast
oppositional

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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
#4459791 - 07/27/05 11:05 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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with free will-
people who use these words are describing something-
it's like, yes there's cause-and-effect type thing going on
but it's like you can draw a circle around certain of the causes and effects, certain ones that occur in a person, and you call this circle- choice, or free will
not free from determinism- but free in the sense that it 'feels' free- freedom is a real feeling with a real reference point- IMO- feelings are certain of the cause-and-effect
-------------------- "consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: Ravus]
#4459875 - 07/27/05 11:40 AM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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I somewhere read : You may bend, but don't let you break. Free will is something very precious and should not let been taken away so easily  Even with torture, the mind holds its free will. While splitting up into multiple personalities, the part in which your consciousness is, won't feel the pain. Also, I think, free will is that, what, on the one hand, can get us more out of the darvinistic misery of this struggle, but on the other hand also more in to strenght-proving fights. The choice is yours
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psychomime
o_O



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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: crunchytoast]
#4460848 - 07/27/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
crunchytoast said: with free will-
people who use these words are describing something-
it's like, yes there's cause-and-effect type thing going on
but it's like you can draw a circle around certain of the causes and effects, certain ones that occur in a person, and you call this circle- choice, or free will
not free from determinism- but free in the sense that it 'feels' free- freedom is a real feeling with a real reference point- IMO- feelings are certain of the cause-and-effect
yeah, well put. you have free will in the sense that actions feel free but they they are not seperate from causality. determinism does not remove moral responsibilty from your actions as you are the only agent of those actions as many of the determining factors are intrinsic to the individual. I like to think that "free will" is an internal determinist loop that operates on an external determinist one. like two cogs.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Darwinistic Consciousness [Re: psychomime]
#4460920 - 07/27/05 05:08 PM (18 years, 6 months ago) |
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Interesting theory, and possibly true the way you word it. Though strictly according to definition, if free will is part of determinism, is it actually any sort of "free will" or is the fact that it is the result of determinism contradictory to any sort of choice?
Quote:
determinism does not remove moral responsibilty from your actions as you are the only agent of those actions as many of the determining factors are intrinsic to the individual.
What does moral responsibility matter? Morals are subjective, and responsibility is simply an idea humans hold which allows them to judge the actions of others. Not to mention, it's debatable whether you are the only agent of these actions, because we don't have all the information; there's no way to verify that the actions are purely coming from us, and therefore that we are completely responsible for them.
Of course, if you think of it in this light, then the topic of moral responsibility is thrown out the window, because normal philosophical prejudices are wiped out; everybody is simply following the battle in their minds, even in the way their mind judges others for their actions.
Quote:
I like to think that "free will" is an internal determinist loop that operates on an external determinist one.
What's the difference between the internal and the external? If you think of consciousness as existing in the brain, then the brain is as physical as everything else; if you say all of (the perception of) reality only exists within our subjective mind, then everything exists internally.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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