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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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the day after a minidose is peak IQ for me, today is low IQ.
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27481411 - 09/25/21 04:54 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do you have a distinction between what you may say vs another animal?
If you do bite the bullet.. do you have a name..
What is it between us which is distinction?
We are almost insane between us both..
It is usually the one most insane which reveals the wave.. (of wave of the world via a 11th dimension string.. which is higher and bigger than any lesser wave!)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#27481436 - 09/25/21 06:14 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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do you hide intended meaning of your lines of text in casual paradox so that you will not reveal your delicate self?
my name is just redgreenvines because anything else is a mirror of the same world just different.
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#27481528 - 09/25/21 08:10 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: Also another question..
I follow my curiosity and sometimes it gets out of order..
My question to you, is why? Why at all does curiosity go to unrighteous things?
Maybe a way to establish freedom of choice and freewill?
I think that is one of the most valuable questions anyone can ever ask. It implies growth, introspection, and honesty.
Curiosity goes to unrighteous things, as Jung would say, because we are capable of some really horrible crap.
The inability to define good or bad does not negate their existence. For example, if Geoffrey Dommer thinks it seems and feels good to think about kidnapping 10 girls to make them his temporary sex slaves by getting them all addicted to meth, and then disposing of them after a couple of years in a large plastic bag, that would be still an evil, bad, and unrighteous thought regardless of whether or not I can articulate a definition for good and evil.
But yes, it makes sense that anyone raised with a Judeo/Christian paradigm who removes God from the equation will see obvious problems in defining good without the definer. So much relativism when you have to vote morality.
I have certainly had my own bad thoughts that led to bad decisions with bad consequences.
It always follows this progression: a. Sensory input b. Conscious thought of the sensory input c. Deliberate repetition of the conscious thought d. Exploration of possible action e. Real life action. f. Bad consequences (divorce, job loss, waking up in jail) are not always subsequent.
If you want to exercise freedom of choice to change this there are two great ways to do this:
A. Stop the cycle upstream. Stop the sensory input/exposure to whatever it is that is making you think these thoughts. For an alcoholic, that may mean avoiding certain friends, TV shows, or going to the bar. Once it has entered the thoughts, you can't really control if it pops into your head, but you can control if you choose to think on it. I may not be able to control if I see a sensory input that troubles me, but I can control if I am going to take a second look or pause on it.
B. Interrupt your patterns. Instead shopping when hungry and buying soda and chips at the store, one can eat before shopping and then avoid buying the temptation foods.
C. Reprogram your representational engrams. Pavlovian response is everywhere. We have associative conditioning to all sorts of things. If you are trying to lose weight and think of sugary soda and potato chips, and associate ultimate refreshing pleasure with them, its going to be difficult to stop thinking about them. If you learn to associate pop and chips with tooth decay, periodontal death-breath and tooth loss, diabetes, obesity, acne, heart disease, premature death, and ultimate pain and suffering, then you will NOT want to choose that, and you've removed the need for self control from the equation.
With all of the above said, temperance is what we are talking about here. That is one of the central tenets of stoic philosophy. Self-discipline. This can be helpful in life for everything from avoiding a diet that will turn one into Jabba the Hut, to avoiding sexual proclivities that will be destructive or dangerous. If someone has developed a Pavolovian anchor for perverse pleasure at the thought of inserting hamsters in their rectum to enjoy the feeling of their spasms during their death, or if they have developed a fetish for children, or sheep, or some other "sexual liberation" which is beyond the societally accepted norms of our day (or one within them), or even if they just plain do not like their thoughts, then it is well and good if they wish to learn to stop entertaining such thoughts.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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I would group both A & B above with avoidance of triggers
and I would put C, in which an understanding of the associative nature of mind and experiencing can lead to staging the association of useful mental forms to healthy ends i.e.: 1) negative associations that are true about sugar and teeth and breath and heart disease which very healthy operant conditioning, but also 2) positive + neutral associations where unperturbed calm breathing is combined with any mental contents, including both fond and difficult memories and trauma (i.e. insight meditation).
certainly accept one's limitations and do use avoidance (A) at the outset, but then transcend one's limitations by introducing calm understanding (B) that things are just the way they are by virtue of nature of mind and all things; and then bring that healthy orientation into the world.
In this comment I used "healthy" instead of "good or moral", which are valid terms in themselves but that have some baggage that can confuse the situation, which is mostly about how a person feels.
so feeling healthy is worthwhile, and, while "good" is definitely better than "bad", it can also be part of an endless spiral of breathless comparisons (- so not that useful to point out good and bad or better at every turn); while "moral" reduces to "healthy" when examined in each particular instance, yet as an abstraction it entangles ideas with cultural history and norms.
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Icon
Bloomer


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27481707 - 09/25/21 11:26 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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step F detailing consequences doesn't always happen tho. Sometimes you murder 9 people with no repercussions so by the 10th I wouldn't blame him for not even feeling bad about it. Maybe he did feel guilty the first time.
That's part of what makes me think that morality isn't defined by anything but ourselves. If god was enforcing morality the people who make bad choices would always meet unfavorable consequences. But that's just not the case, people get away with so much for so long, humans are clearly dictating and in control of enforcing. Something that is totally morally wrong like an employer requiring an employee to be twice as productive to make up for an absence, without compensating them double. Fools would get their skulls split with a club in the caveman days but now the system is setup to take advantage and distort morality, at least numb the consequences. A story of final judgement and afterlife seems like a tool to keep us sitting back and letting bad things happen without consequence. And christian's twist it where you're welcome to sin as much as you want as long as you say sorry before you die.
I was robbed by a 'friend' who is a christian. They didn't leave one fucking penny, took it all. Did not show any remorse, no guilt or regret, still no confession. There's no fucking morality or karma or consequences out there. I did something horribly righteous in return and there hasn't been any consequence for my vengeance. Either god works in mysterious ways by giving me a free pass to balance the scales, or it's really a free for all. That's why addiction and shit is possible. Losing some teeth is a slap on the wrist to a meth head. Drinking a soda doesn't perceivably punish you until you're 400lbs. It's stupid human brains that can't see the consequences because too often there aren't any. A conscious god wouldn't allow that. Poor design.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Icon] 1
#27481731 - 09/25/21 11:52 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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exactly - mostly irrelevant to the discussion of the mechanics of Consciousness, save to support the fact that once associative perception is engaged, it can drag the rest of the system into a series of attitude laden activities.
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Icon] 1
#27481773 - 09/25/21 12:38 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icon said: step F detailing consequences doesn't always happen tho.
"f. Bad consequences (divorce, job loss, waking up in jail) are not always subsequent."
Quote:
Icon said: And christian's twist it where you're welcome to sin as much as you want as long as you say sorry before you die.
There are many interesting religions in the world. Christianity is one of them. Since you brought it up, I'll clarify:
The Bible, which is the authority to subscribers of Christianity, says that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. As you can know a tree by the fruit it produces, so too you can know a person by the metaphorical fruit they produce in their lives. It also says to its followers, "On that day, many will say to me, "Lord, Lord!" and I will say to them, "Depart from me, I never knew you." While Christianity allows people to change at any point in their lives (even at the end), someone who takes the attitude of deliberately choosing to ignore God until the end and then just utter some magic words will, according to the Bible, (even atheists will agree with this) not be spending eternity with God.
Quote:
Icon said: A conscious god wouldn't allow that. Poor design.
I'm not going to shove God down your throat, but let's give credit where credit is due. The vast majority of human evil and suffering is a direct result of human irresponsibility and human self-governance.
You are not pure as the driven snow. You are, in fact, the antagonist in somebody's story. So the question is not "why do the innocent suffer," but "why don't we all suffer a whole lot more, right now?"
A trichocereus cactus that grows in perfect humidity, lighting, and water conditions does not produce the beautiful characteristics it is intended to grow. For this, is needs hardening. Bones grow weak without gravity and stress. Suffering produces perseverance. Perseverance produces character.
A trout was born to swim upstream and succeed as a thing of beauty and strength against adversity.
You are the genetic result of millions and millions of successes in the struggle against adversity. You were created this way to face adversity with strength, and fight against it. Our adversity defines us.
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27487044 - 09/30/21 01:40 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said:btw, we find hypothalamic suppression using body sensation, looking around for the keys to concentration our baby brain shuttles through all it can, memories of murmurs and sensations until BonK! it finds a glimmer, it goes back to that specific elbownian + gut sensation echo and BonK! the internal accupressure engram results in a hammerlock focus on the thing of interest.
in this way we learn to focus on kinds of sensations and ideas, the keys are hidden in other engrams.
That elbownian accupressure, the idea of how to hammerlock that focus on a thing of interest.
The saying goes,
Quote:
Perhaps it's good for one to suffer. Can an artist do anything if he's happy? Would he ever want to do anything? What is art, after all, but a protest against the horrible inclemency of life?
If inclemency is severity of character, it only means to have an intense character, and to call it horrible is more of a personal whim.
Is art a declaration of disapproval for ones sincere or passionate character?
Perhaps we will suffer, in fact I guarantee it, but we can do in all degrees a little bit. Either way, I wouldn't protest against passionate people,
Perhaps in a psychological sense, no new art is created to achieve the hammerlock of focus on a thing of interest, if it is truly a thing of interest, because if it were truly a thing of interest, there would be some kind of hammerlock of focus that makes it a thing of interest in the first place.
Maybe there are levels of focus and you've got to jump to them in a sustainable way.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] 1
#27487130 - 09/30/21 05:45 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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focus of attention is suppression of perception of signal channels not being attended, i.e. not of interest. we learn it associatively, is what I am saying, and it starts in the womb.
art is synthetic and compositional, often idiosyncratic but with wide appeal, or at least wide enough support to be exhibited.
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BrendanFlock
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27487990 - 09/30/21 08:22 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Happy art does exist in my opinion.. zen moments of appreciation for example.
Though I have heard that many artists had a sad composition.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#27487998 - 09/30/21 08:29 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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we may not be talking abut the same thing when I say composition
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27488297 - 10/01/21 04:53 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you mean like focused attention? as opposed to open monitoring meditation? Sorry, I just jumped in and didn’t follow along so I may be way off base here. If so just ignore.
Anyways, for some reason your posts on this page bring to mind Marcel Duchamp. Your mapping out of things in an open way that is receptive & inclusive to change/addition, as we understand more over time, is a neat model for people wanting to intellectually grasp the mechanics behind the phenomena of consciousness from a psychonaught-scientist-yogi’ish POV. Being able to see it in action - so to speak - reflected by our actual experience of the moment reminds me how amazing it truly is to be aware of consciousness. Plus, your sig of the baby-mirror pic is a powerful image, evoking primal non-dual awareness - and used as a link to the map model? Thats just icing on the cake. Good work RGV.  
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (10/01/21 05:15 AM)
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: The Blind Ass] 1
#27488339 - 10/01/21 06:55 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said: Happy art does exist in my opinion.. zen moments of appreciation for example.
Yes, I see.

Is the way art makes you feel a representation of how the world makes you feel?
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: The Blind Ass] 1
#27488361 - 10/01/21 07:20 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Blind Ass said: Do you mean like focused attention? as opposed to open monitoring meditation? Sorry, I just jumped in and didn’t follow along so I may be way off base here. If so just ignore.
Anyways, for some reason your posts on this page bring to mind Marcel Duchamp. Your mapping out of things in an open way that is receptive & inclusive to change/addition, as we understand more over time, is a neat model for people wanting to intellectually grasp the mechanics behind the phenomena of consciousness from a psychonaught-scientist-yogi’ish POV. Being able to see it in action - so to speak - reflected by our actual experience of the moment reminds me how amazing it truly is to be aware of consciousness. Plus, your sig of the baby-mirror pic is a powerful image, evoking primal non-dual awareness - and used as a link to the map model? Thats just icing on the cake. Good work RGV.  
hey, thanks for the appreciation of many factors +++,
In that post I was responding to Brendan's use of the word composition, for which I mostly use a photographer/painter/abstract artist mind set that determines composition as a thing in itself, a totality and an expression with unity.
However with regard to focusing attention, it seems that the way the hypothalamus suppresses parts of the thalamus under frontal cortical coordination, at the point where feedback from sensation enters the thalamus, which is the same place that perception enters the thalamus. The point is moot, basically where is the brake shoe. It is in the best place to stop any feedback whether the feedback is from primary sensation or from mental objects. The most effective point for the brakes is where perception or mental objects arrive to begin feedback, i.e. one step later than sensation.
it means that even a suppressed sense will have one signal enter the proper part of the cortex, and that minor signal can influence experience even as the sense channel is suppressed.
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27488380 - 10/01/21 07:46 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nearly everything of the human mind can be explained in very simple, primal concepts.
The human brain is an over-achieving part of an otherwise pretty typical mammal body, and in typical mammal behavior it will do something to (simply, primally) try to assert dominance, and when questioned, "why did you do this," the brain will come up with some elaborate explanation to justify it.
(Id est, "Well, It was David's birthday and his friends said it would be fun to have a blah blah blah." No... you were just flexing. No different than any other animal throughout the ages.

I could probably post an entire thread on how men are always baffled by the "complex" behavior of their wives and their frustration when trying to get more sex. This also can be viewed very simply in terms of mammalian tournament species primal urges.
We like to come up with complex reasons for why we are looking into things, but it is as simple as a baby investigating a mirror, "WTF is that?"
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
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we go from anywhere in our consciousness during the day the more we are there the further we are the better we go so goal is to not damage oneself and make oneself build oneself up that will result in better life
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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actually, Moses, while you can say those things, and arguably be correct, they leave the explanation more in confusion and surrender than clarity.
Naturally people want a root cause so they can root it out, as we do emulate hungry pigs in the forest intellectually speaking.
Quote:
and when questioned, "why did you do this," the brain will come up with some elaborate explanation to justify it.
the question is really never "why" anything, more "what is this about" or just "huh???"
and, there is no single simple answer forthcoming; but instead a rabble of associations emerge: contextual, environmental, personal, social.
amidst that riff raff rabble of associations - one perceptive response may ensue, or it may may be a collaborative synthesis of behavioral responses to fit the occasion - which you could reduce to dyslexic mental perceptive response.
That is the most natural thing among mammals, and probably all vertebrates, and probably all bilaterally symmetrical creatures with a central neural node.
the more dyslexic the more creative and spontaneous and intelligent, IMO. Simpler creatures are less likely to combine perceptions, I mean like worms etc.
the questions about your wife, however, do deserve a different thread, of course. She's worth it - no?
@Ferdinando, I think that your poem sits well.
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Moses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27489134 - 10/01/21 07:08 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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redgreenvines said: actually, Moses, while you can say those things, and arguably be correct, they leave the explanation more in confusion and surrender than clarity.
...
the question is really never "why" anything, more "what is this about" or just "huh???"
Yeah I agree with you. I spoke too broadly. I should have given a little better context to my point. There are obviously very complex behaviors in any mammal, but most of them have have somewhat simple motivations, exempli grati, social dominance hierarchies. So much of human behavior makes perfect sense after having animals around the house. Horses, chickens, dogs, even the fish and hermit crabs in a reef aquarium all have social dominance hierarchies.
It's as though the human ego is the black hole about which our universe rotates, but nobody can see it and people seldom like to attribute their actions to their huge egos.
In the absence of hallucinogens, a lot of what people do has been motivated by ego, various social dominance hierarchies, and desires to grow into various archetypes. Maybe most all of it.
(Side note: It is so liberating to objectively look at all of the ego-driven social constructs and just say, "meh," isn't it?)
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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I do not think about ego much.
I do think about nature and animal behavior and animal social behavior and I see the similarities in my own behavior and that of others.
I don't call that ego, I call the unpleasant parts of it brutish, or in bad taste, or mean, or criminal. most of the self is quite sympatico, actually all of it is totally sympathetic, the whole idea of associative memory relies upon sympathetic field interference patterns, cognitive resonance.
Freud did us a disservice with all that gets lumped in with ego, and the bad rap gets delivered to all the innocent members of that lumped together collection of ego properties.
My Buddhist friends deplore ego but say that you cannot live without it, and I find that is an error in distinctions and attitude, because you have to love yourself not deplore your self, but you have to learn to act with dignity. Lots of fuzzy thinking in Buddhism too.
I have had to ask the Buddha to step out into the hall with Freud so that I can live in peace. When they sort this shit out they can come back to class.
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