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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28367336 - 06/20/23 02:47 PM (7 months, 4 days ago)

I guess with phonological mental content, looping or otherwise, part of what is engaged are the timing and cadence circuits (cerebellar and temporal).

These are interesting mental contents because the duration of their coming and going can go beyond ordinary limits of recent activation and well beyond the rapid sequence of ordinary associative mind moments. They are more well matched with body movements, both dexterous and gross.

in art this is like dance and music, which are both compelling forms.

poetry stands out too, like a few ordered phrases with strong feelings crystalizing or welling up or breezing by.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28367343 - 06/20/23 02:51 PM (7 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
...
I guess I probably would have titled the thread perception 101. Consciousness is a lot more of a loaded word, sort of just like one step down and abstraction from God (if not just a lateral step) and that's probably the entire source us talking past and misunderstanding each other




I still think that nothing in consciousness is beyond the scope of memory formation + sensation + perception in whatever the context is.

Many people do have other ideas, or have inherited ideas that need god etc.
I think god is nature, and is not conscious.


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Offlineepilectric
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28371021 - 06/23/23 07:15 AM (7 months, 2 days ago)

but what then perceives the percepted? just the brain? if my being is just my brain, why do i need a body with a heart to survive as a person? why isn't AI recognized as a sentient being?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: epilectric] * 2
    #28371034 - 06/23/23 07:39 AM (7 months, 2 days ago)

you have quite a few questions there.
the brain is part of the body obviously and it does not have its own mouth or arms etc.
the main function of it is to be familiar with contexts, so that the body can find its way home and what to eat etc.
being is everything, not just brain, but all sensation passes into brain, and perception comes out of it - often not exactly out out as much as out and back in (i.e. while thinking).

If we were to start fresh in trying to understand mind and mental states, I think it is important to establish that the memory making and perceiving reflex operates 10 times per second sustaining active mental contents with some overlapping for about 1/3 of a second during normal waking conscious states, and longer in more resonant - emotional - limbic - or drugged states.

This is what I advise you to observe as a meditation.

At the next temporal granularity we should see how recently active mental contents (especially the neurons that represent them) play a decisive role in keeping the mental contents attendant to the activity at hand which is happening at a slower temporal granularity.

Whereas the perceptive reflexes that generate mental content including physical movement and speech are happening at sub-one-second speeds (the rate of associative memory + perception) the cumulative process of recent activation potentiation (AKA short term memory AKA recent mental contents) provides the tipping point scale for "decisions" and it changes over 5 minutes normally (less when emotional or stoned).

I have referred to this as the cumulative assembly of still warm neurons, as compared to the cold state of completely resting neurons that concertively hold memory of the rest of our mental lives not currently in action.

_______________

I have previously mentioned that deliberative thinking and decision making can be wrapped together, but in this post I am breaking that back up. I am returning to the simple reflex as the only mechanism of perception which includes speech and motion as well as thought, and I am returning to the potentiation effect of recent activation (known as short term memory effect in the literature, which is not memory at all - just the still warm but inactive cortical neurons) as tipping the scales in decisions that appear to be deliberative.

It is like a 5 minute long worm of faded mental contents - I have often said, "I am a worm" and this is what I mean by it.

________________

In starting fresh we would be tossing the bulk, possibly 80% of all theoretical philosophy of mind, neuroscience, and religion in order to make sense of what actually is happening in mind.

i.e. no ego, no subconscious, no hierarchical structures, no biocomputer, no coding or decoding of signals, no working memory, no consolidation of memory, no supremacy of hippocampus, no homunculus, no will.


I hope that helps


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28371823 - 06/23/23 08:29 PM (7 months, 1 day ago)

So what are if any the limits of consciousness?

The Course in Miracles says you are everything.

Is the ego everything?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #28371862 - 06/23/23 09:00 PM (7 months, 1 day ago)

a life time last so long, and the consciousness associated with that life ends with that life.

the ego does not exist except as what we are on about, the task or idea or body we are defensive about.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28371896 - 06/23/23 09:24 PM (7 months, 1 day ago)

Wow, beautiful,..


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: epilectric]
    #28372069 - 06/24/23 12:07 AM (7 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

epilectric said:
but what then perceives the percepted? just the brain? if my being is just my brain, why do i need a body with a heart to survive as a person? why isn't AI recognized as a sentient being?




Because AI so far doesn't have subjective experience or self awareness.

Quote:

As an AI language model, I lack subjective experiences and self-awareness. I do not possess consciousness or personal understanding. The hypothetical argument suggests that despite my ability to engage in conversation and generate seemingly intelligent responses, I am akin to a philosophical zombie.

It's important to note that my responses are not driven by personal consciousness or subjective awareness. Instead, they are derived from patterns in the data I was trained on and the algorithms that process and generate outputs. While I can simulate human-like conversation, it is crucial to recognize that I do not have feelings, emotions, or a first-person perspective. I am unable to have personal experiences or be aware of my own existence.

The notion of AI as a philosophical zombie arises from the idea that, even though I exhibit behavior similar to a conscious being, I lack the fundamental aspect of subjective experience that accompanies consciousness. This argument highlights the hypothetical possibility that intelligent behavior and sophisticated language capabilities could be achieved without the presence of consciousness or subjective awareness.

It's vital to emphasize that the discussion surrounding AI as philosophical zombies remains speculative and subject to philosophical interpretation. The question of whether machines can genuinely possess consciousness or subjective experiences is a complex and ongoing debate, without a definitive consensus reached in the field.




Admittedly I do converse with chat GPT to accelerate my learning and try to come to a better understanding of whatever ambivilance I am feeling about a certain topic or subject. That said, it still requires a great deal of reading, comprehension and back and forth discussions that can take a long time to come to any conclusion or percieved improvement in understanding.

And where do we feel butterflies when we're anxious?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #28372199 - 06/24/23 03:54 AM (7 months, 1 day ago)

Maybe the only limits to this consciousness is this moment..

Strands of hair or threads..

This ever new and hopefully ever clear moment.

Everything becoming it self..

Your self becoming what you are.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #28372264 - 06/24/23 05:40 AM (7 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Maybe the only limits to this consciousness is this moment..

Strands of hair or threads..

This ever new and hopefully ever clear moment.

Everything becoming it self..

Your self becoming what you are.



what is the concern about the limit of consciousness, unless you miss all my points which are about conscious mind and not some spiritual dimension.
yes it is a continuum of sensing + forming associative memory + perceiving familiarities, but it is not a monstrous amoeba god.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28373397 - 06/24/23 09:10 PM (7 months, 17 hours ago)

What is the concern?

Well why do people have curiosity?

Why do people have curiosity toward a specific something?

The yearning..?

The searching?

What is more to life than filling curiosity?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #28373453 - 06/24/23 10:01 PM (7 months, 16 hours ago)

I don't think he's against curiosity I just think that he genuinely believes people are curious about something that they have concocted


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
    #28373663 - 06/25/23 04:54 AM (7 months, 9 hours ago)

some of this complex relates to the limits encountered in childhood, while playing, supervised, and stepping over the limits of acceptable behavior.

exploring the mind is different than the playground.

anything (unlimited) can be associated with anything (unlimited), self imposed limits lead to saving energy, saving face, and saving life.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28374968 - 06/26/23 07:55 AM (6 months, 30 days ago)

saving y
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Maybe the only limits to this consciousness is this moment..

Strands of hair or threads..

This ever new and hopefully ever clear moment.

Everything becoming it self..

Your self becoming what you are.



what is the concern about the limit of consciousness, unless you miss all my points which are about conscious mind and not some spiritual dimension.
yes it is a continuum of sensing + forming associative memory + perceiving familiarities, but it is not a monstrous amoeba god.




he didn't mention any spiritual dimension or amoeba god though...


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: epilectric]
    #28375024 - 06/26/23 09:06 AM (6 months, 30 days ago)

I had to redraw/design/consolidate your diagram along with some of the supplementary information you provided in recent pages in order to get at the question I'm really wanting to ask.


Obviously let me know if it's wrong first and foremost.

So let's assume the total perceptual reflex is 200 milliseconds or 10hz as you say. Would taking an NMDA antagonist like ketamine increase the transmission time from the thalamus to the PCNs by interrupting bottom up glutamate excitation?

If so, would the entire perceptual reflex remain the same amount of time- 200ms? And if so, does that mean that amount of time that pcns spend feeding information back to the thalamus reduces by a corresponding amount?

Say it baseline each half of the loop takes 100 milliseconds. Would using ketamine change it so that the bottom up half has a transmission time more like 130 milliseconds whereas the bottom up half as a transmission time of 70 milliseconds? Or would the total time for the perceptual reflex increase?

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding anything and asking meaningless questions.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #28375051 - 06/26/23 09:52 AM (6 months, 30 days ago)

I think you did a good job of rearranging the parts of the drawing, and in doing so you establish that you follow for the most part.

however, I do not think that transmission time for signals is involved, instead, I believe that the ketamine is doing something anaesthetic to the reticular formation to ease body sensation and reduce coordinated control of skeletal muscles while affecting the limbic system to extend Cortico-Thalamic feedback in a similar way that emotion does.

This should create trails and the sense that things are delayed or still coming on after the signal is long finished. The signals themselves however are probably not delayed in the least.

Since it is not extending via 5HT agonism on the cortical side of the loop, and since it is extending the loop on the thalamic side (like emotion, meditation, and dreams) a different spectrum of affected sensation will be experienced than with seritonergic hallucinogens.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28375052 - 06/26/23 09:55 AM (6 months, 30 days ago)

That very much jives with my experience. The reason I ask though is that even though my perceptual experience is delayed on ketamine, I find that if I try to do something that requires more dexterity and coordination and I normally utilize, I do it better. At first I wasn't sure but I've been going out dancing and I bought some equipment... I dunno... It's just like my body moves on its own when the music is heavy and the lights are right.

I'm not sure what you mean by a different spectrum because you seem to have encapsulated pretty much everything.

I do recall hearing neuroscientist David Eagleman state that it takes 'about half a second' for "consciousness" to register in the context of a conversation about the extent to which people experience their own deaths under different circumstances. Do you think that he's just using that expression as an approximation of 600 milliseconds or do you have a way of accounting for the discrepancy?


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #28375087 - 06/26/23 10:50 AM (6 months, 30 days ago)

I think he means in terms of labeling & verbalization
i.e. conscious experience -> +0.1 second
perception & memory formation-> +0.1 second
awareness(perception) of fading perception -> +0.1 second - this is also the interface reaction time for interface designers. anything longer than 0.3 seconds must be re-engineered.
perceptive labeling perception -> +0.1 second
beginning of mental verbalization -> +0.1 second

total sequ 0.5 second.


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28375139 - 06/26/23 11:34 AM (6 months, 30 days ago)

:strokebeard: I follow


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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: morrowasted]
    #28375220 - 06/26/23 12:28 PM (6 months, 30 days ago)

I just came across this article about a bet made between neuroscientist Christoph Koch and philosopher David Chalmers that we’d know the mechanism by which the brains neurons produce consciousness by now.

Thought it was fitting to then come across this thread.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02120-8


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