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Invisibleredgreenvines
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RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics * 5
    #27446374 - 08/28/21 01:23 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

I often get into little discussions with people about what I think consciousness is or is not, and how the brain and the mind are one thing, and how sensation is input and perception is everything else, and how memory engrams are constantly being formed as sets of all the activated Primary Cortical Neurons which are complete combinations of Sensation and Perception (everything else), that become more cohesive accessible associative memories through repetition.

Accordingly I made up the chart below which arranges the non-exclusive lists of ideas in a way that can work for a lifetime providing animal or human consciousness.



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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (05/30/23 08:37 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27447462 - 08/29/21 07:22 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

smaller file



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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27448942 - 08/30/21 03:37 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)



Quote:

The thalamocortical neurons receive sensory or motor information from the rest of the body and present selected information via nerve fibres (thalamocortical radiations) to the cerebral cortex

It now appears certain that the hypothalamus influences the cerebral cortex through the intermediary of certain principal nuclei of the thalamus which project on to focal areas of the cortex

https://www.google.com/search?q=cerebral+cortex+hypothalamus&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU906AU907&oq=cerebral+cortex+to+hyp&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i22i30l4.4695j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

From the study, it is found that the hypothalamus is the key area for the integration of forebrain control of autonomic and endocrine function with ongoing behaviour and emotional state.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079612300260056





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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27455065 - 09/03/21 03:52 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Eureka!


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27461783 - 09/09/21 12:56 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

a pimple on one's amygdala would certainly get one's HPA amped up.

Yes the regions of the brain that have been activated recently is of interest in observing the constellation of neurons that embody short term memory - that is assuming the scans take more than a few seconds to resolve,
but if they are very fast scans (resolving temporal local changes at 1/6th of a second or less) then they can show engram contents, basically (depending on fineness of resolution grain) the set of neurons that make up the frame of memory of the moment.
Without subjecting myself to the video, he would be using the state of the art scanning capability which is pretty crude - capable of showing large pieces of tissue that have metabolic activity over the duration of the scan.

Yes that is also interesting. Of course, and distracting, but it does not add much new to the story that neuroanatomists - Santiago RamΓ³n y Cajal in particular, were aware of 100 years ago.

https://qz.com/1276040/these-lush-100-year-old-drawings-of-the-brain-are-still-used-by-medical-students/






here is one of his Pyramidal neuron illustrations - its wide branching is the basis of interconnecting active cortical neurons that are contacted in a moment of time:



His work in a general way is more valuable than nearly any other single contribution to neuroscience since his day.

it is a whole different mindset I would say.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27462801 - 09/10/21 09:00 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

hendrix!!!!


Edited by redgreenvines (09/10/21 09:14 AM)


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27469352 - 09/15/21 01:01 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I prefer what we have but wings would have been fun too.




Flying around with wings is overrated. I have hit a few too many trees and decided to just stick with walking around in the dirt.

Not an actual picture of me... but you get the idea.



LOL I can't believe they let anyone fly these without a license.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson] * 1
    #27469744 - 09/15/21 06:55 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

If you think it's a good tactic to throw in technically valid arguments like that of the probability the Sun does not rise tomorrow then you do you.

Their is such thing as neutrality bias though.

Quote:

False balance, alsoΒ bothsidesism, is aΒ media biasΒ in which journalists present an issue as being more balanced between opposing viewpoints than the evidence supports. Journalists may present evidence and arguments out of proportion to the actual evidence for each side, or may omit information that would establish one side's claims as baseless. False balance has been cited as a cause ofΒ misinformation.

Exaggerated portrayal of false balance in science journalism

False balance is a bias, which usually stems from an attempt to avoid bias, and gives unsupported or dubious positions an illusion of respectability. It creates a public perception that some issues are scientifically contentious, though in reality they aren't, therefore creatingΒ doubtΒ about the scientific state of research, and can be exploited by interest groups such as corporations like the fossil fuel industry or the tobacco industry, or ideologically motivated activists such as vaccination opponents or creationists.






--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineIcon
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #27469851 - 09/15/21 08:09 PM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for putting a definition on neutrality bias. That's exactly what some religious people hide behind. The belief that the world is in the hands of a higher power and all events are part of a destiny is neutrality bias isn't it? It's a neutral, non-dualistic dismissal of right vs wrong and probabilistic evidence to avoid challenges to their own beliefs.


How do you guys think music plays a role in consciousness? It seems like something as old to man as consciousness. The ability to read the present, past and predict the future is all required to keep a rhythm. Most animals seem unconscious of musical patterns. Maybe some exceptions for birds and dolphins but language and rhythm mostly require consciousness. And music is a good exercise of awareness. In a way, you can make anything in life 'musical' if you're good at it; like rap, sports, or hand skills. As you practice you 'get the rhythm' and it becomes a behavior from predictive repetition. It's also described as 'flow' when you tap into that deep, rhythmic consciousness.

I think it's interesting that hallucinations respond to music. Like if I'm hallucinating a mandala of colorful orbs and also play music the mandala rotates at a different pace and the orbs change their pulse to the rhythm of the music and the shapes snap to different forms on beat. How can the visuals do that without some kind of predictive machine, ie our brains.

You need some more intuitive graphics for your concept RGV, like these models on flow:


Edited by Icon (09/15/21 08:34 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly] * 2
    #27470260 - 09/16/21 07:16 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Is a long shot but imo, it would be nice to see a cropped model of the feedback loop in the thalamus, and how the hypothalamus links to, or provides suppression.

For that visual.





black dot represents a thalamic neuron receiving axon from somatic sensory nerve (1) and projecting to cortex (2), Cortical feedback (3) is blocked by suppression from Hypothalamus (4+5). the frontal cortex can "conjure" hypothalamic suppression in an efferent way that does not go through the thalamus but is learned through experience.

in this view a previous series of mental formations would have set up the suppression, and since it is set up, the somatic sensory event does not establish feedback but it does produce a single ephaptic field pulse that can momentarily affect other fields (e.g. blindsight in which events that are not perceived have real but subtle impact on behavior)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27472727 - 09/18/21 08:21 AM (2 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, concentration and distraction filtering are employed at the beginning of meditation and each time it gently begins again during a session.

in meditation both perceptive behavior (eg. sitting) and sensation (eg. breath following) merge in the practice of open awareness - perceptions (mind forms) are never separate from sensations (~reality~) in consciousness.

the input and output merge into one harmonious feed


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #27488339 - 10/01/21 06:55 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Happy art does exist in my opinion.. zen moments of appreciation for example.





Yes, I see.



Is the way art makes you feel a representation of how the world makes you feel?


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27488380 - 10/01/21 07:46 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Nearly everything of the human mind can be explained in very simple, primal concepts.

The human brain is an over-achieving part of an otherwise pretty typical mammal body, and in typical mammal behavior it will do something to (simply, primally) try to assert dominance, and when questioned, "why did you do this," the brain will come up with some elaborate explanation to justify it.

(Id est, "Well, It was David's birthday and his friends said it would be fun to have a blah blah blah." No... you were just flexing. No different than any other animal throughout the ages.



I could probably post an entire thread on how men are always baffled by the "complex" behavior of their wives and their frustration when trying to get more sex. This also can be viewed very simply in terms of mammalian tournament species primal urges.

We like to come up with complex reasons for why we are looking into things, but it is as simple as a baby investigating a mirror, "WTF is that?"


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27491128 - 10/03/21 02:22 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Connections can be metaphorical in the brain when one thing represents another, but they can be quite literal too. I think our brains are very quick to start linking unrelated things together. We seem programmed from birth to seek out familiar patterns in the unfamiliar.



--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #27491299 - 10/03/21 05:18 PM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Connections can be metaphorical in the brain when one thing represents another, but they can be quite literal too. I think our brains are very quick to start linking unrelated things together. We seem programmed from birth to seek out familiar patterns in the unfamiliar.






the brain finds things even without a seek underway, but when it does find some rich related thing in a particular context, then some seeking routines begin - they are not hardwired, but related matching is the basic association activity of perception which is on all the time as well as sensation and memory formation.


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27513130 - 10/22/21 02:18 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

:2cents:






--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #27513171 - 10/22/21 04:23 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
:2cents:








I wonder what date that book was published and for which audience,
do you have a title?
yes the thalamus is a relay, no it does not process signals, it is a relay.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27530743 - 11/05/21 01:13 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

sudly said:
It sounds to me like perception enacts as a catalyst for the unionisation of external input and internal activation, resulting in our dynamic experience.

Perhaps I'm full of it, but it makes a little bit of sense to me.



yes but (using your words) it is the ongoing harmonic reflex (internal activation) of the memory tissue to ongoing sensory events during unionisation of external input and internal activation, resulting in our dynamic experience becoming linked into memory.






Where, or what is the receiver?



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: sudly]
    #27530871 - 11/05/21 06:09 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

sudly said:
It sounds to me like perception enacts as a catalyst for the unionisation of external input and internal activation, resulting in our dynamic experience.

Perhaps I'm full of it, but it makes a little bit of sense to me.



yes but (using your words) it is the ongoing harmonic reflex (internal activation) of the memory tissue to ongoing sensory events during unionisation of external input and internal activation, resulting in our dynamic experience becoming linked into memory.






Where, or what is the receiver?





there is no receiver just the activity we have described.

however, the nature of short term memory (all the cortical neurons that were activated in the last 5 minutes which are easier to stimulate with subthreshold pyramidal activations) is that one has a context or contextual reference prejudice with an "i am here" net effect.
that effect is easily misconstrued as a persistent ego.
(it is not just "i am here" physically, it is the train of thought, the smear of all mental activity over the last 5 minutes.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: RGV's Consciousness 101 Basics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27565520 - 12/02/21 12:23 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I often get into little discussions with people about what I think consciousness is or is not, and how the brain and the mind are one thing, and how sensation is input and perception is everything else, and how memory engrams are constantly being formed as sets of all the activated Primary Cortical Neurons which are complete combinations of Sensation and Perception (everything else), that become more cohesive through repetition.

Accordingly I made up the chart below which arranges the non-exclusive lists of ideas in a way that can work for a lifetime providing animal or human consciousness.






Why didn't you include the nerves, the neural pathways!

Also how did you manage to turn to a baby?


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