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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3192983 - 09/28/04 09:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

what was this all about? "Either evil is implicit at the Planck scale along with good, or evil people are wired differently biologically for whatever reason and are influenced in an aberrant way

There's some technical background and some of the usual good/evil philosophical dead ends, but don't let that get in the way of the interesting bit about consciousness. Take that stuff with a grain of salt. It's just him trying to make sense of something that's hard to make sense of.

Anesthesiologists and neurologists have no idea why anesthetics put us to sleep; they don't even know what makes us awake. It's the possible relation between deep quantum mechanical principals and the folding of proteins in the brain which appear to cause willed movements and actions and consciousness that's interesting.

This kinda sums it up:

"The question is, why would such very, very weak quantum mechanical forces in such tiny regions of certain proteins have such profound effects? The answer seems to be that proteins normally dance back and forth between different forms and shapes to perform their functions and what controls the dancing are quantum mechanical forces in these pockets - the pockets are like the tiny brain within each protein. What choreographs them all together is quantum coherence."


Edited by Diploid (09/29/04 05:07 AM)


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Offlinedeff
mysticlove
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Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,198
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Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3193036 - 09/28/04 09:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Basically, if we along with everything else is composed entirely of nanoscopic (even smaller - planck scale) neutral particles, then how can a certain arrangement manifest the notion of morally good or morally evil?

My take - good and evil exist only within perception, and thus - our perception of these planck scale particles is a very unprecise and 'smooth' overlapping illusion. It is the pattern that emerges within our perceptions, also contained within this array of planck scale particles, that deludes itself into morals - based also off of the conditioning of others. Where does consciousness play a role in these particles? Maybe as a pattern becoming increasingly aware (subjectively) to that of the larger encompassing pattern?


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Diploid]
    #3193039 - 09/28/04 09:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

still has no meaning to me. Could you share some of what you find so exciting about that quote? what its relevance is?

If you would be so good im honestly trying and coming up with zero units of meaning here


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineStinky
Toaster ofPop-tarts

Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 61
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Diploid]
    #3193745 - 09/29/04 01:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Diploid, this is the first post here that made me look around and say "Wooahhh..." The thought of consciousness existing at such a tiny level blows my mind. Definately proof that we don't need silly drugs to be amazed. They're always nice though.


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Diploid]
    #3194393 - 09/29/04 03:59 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The Hameroff/Penrose model of consciousness recieves a lot of criticism, and is considers dangerously close to the lunatic fringe.

Most of this criticism centers on the fact that some of the quantum stuff postulated needs precise lab conditions (especially, near absolute zero temperatures). Our brains, these critics argue, are too hot and too wet for these quantum processes to effect anything.

However, the wierd quantum effects can happen at room temperature when lasers are used in the right way, and I think the criticism of the theory is unfounded. The structures in the brain could do the quantum stuff with laserlike firings.

Pretty trippy stuff. I don't believe a guy goes into anesthesiology and studies consciousness without a huge interest in psychedelia. Call me crazy.

It turns out that the hameroff/penrose model will recieve support if a certain view called quantum loop gravity (a competitor to string theory) turns out correct. Quantum loop gravity suggests space is quantatized on the planck scale. There are experiments underway now, involving light from way far away galaxies, which will lend support or discredit quantum loop gravity. My prediction: Quantum loop gravity will be consistant with the results from the experiments, and that bears well for hameroffs theory. Look for results from these experiments in the next ten years.


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"I am eternally free"


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
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Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Diploid]
    #3194421 - 09/29/04 04:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
So few people here seem to find this important? :confused:

One last try...

** Bump **




The paragraphs are too big.  :grin: 

I don't have the time to break them down, so I'm not going to read them.  I'm sorry.  It's this brain I have.  It objects, or something.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
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Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Diploid]
    #3194444 - 09/29/04 04:18 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Ohh, I forgot to add.

Hameroffs theory offers a great explanation for the subjective experience of things like time slowing down during drug use or time speeding up when engaged in "flow" activities.

The quantum firings happen every so often, say once every thousandth of a second. However, on psychedelics, these firings speed up, to ten or even a hundred times normal speed. If this theory is correct, then the subjective experience of time during psychedelic and dissociative experiences has a very physical basis. It would feel like time is slowing down because you measure time internally with these firings, and they speed up. So, say 100,000 firings feels like one minute. If it was sped up ten times, then 1 minute would feel like ten, if it sped up 100 times, one minute would feel like over an hour. Anasthetics, then, would work by slowing down the firings, or stopping them all together, making one minute feel like 1 second, or even 1 hour feel like a tenth of a second. This effect would also account for near death experiences (that your entire life flashes before your eyes means the firings have sped way up. When you are engaged in creative 'flow', the firings slow down, and time seems to go faster. The firings stop when you dissociate and wander naked through the mall and then don't remember any of it.

Because this theory offers such a great explaination for these time distortions which I have experienced, I tend to believe it (or some refined version of it) is pretty dead on right. Because the model requires certain positions of other debates (that the many worlds hypothesis is false, for one) Hameroff and Penroses work motivate me to take positions in other aspects of quantum theory. It's pretty heady stuff, but it's rewarding to dig into.

I'd recommend reading some of Hameroffs papers from his website at the university of arizona. For the quantum physics newbies, I'd recommend working your way through "The Dancing Wu-Li Masters" by Gary Zukov before tackling Hameroffs work, it will lay out the quantum physics stuff in non mathematical terms. Wikipedia lays out the current debates in quantum physics well, and it's a great place to figure out where Hameroffs theory intersecs with other theories in quantum physics.


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"I am eternally free"


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OfflineTodcasil
rogue DMT elf
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Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Diploid]
    #3195127 - 09/29/04 12:40 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

"Maybe as a pattern becoming increasingly aware (subjectively) to that of the larger encompassing pattern? "


take that one step further (or several). think about enlightenment...

all epihpinies, enlightening experiences, ego loss, ego deaths... come down to that point.

i realise the greater truth, the greater pattern.

i think that is correct (your quote) based on my experience beyond the planck scale...

the planck scale is the most interesting thing ive read about this year, imo.


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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Todcasil]
    #3195253 - 09/29/04 01:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

"I'd recommend working your way through "The Dancing Wu-Li Masters"

ah awesome my dad has that book ive seen it on his shelf and never picked it up. Time to borrow it

:thumbup:

Metaphysical inquiry has led me to believe long ago that conciousness exists at every level from the infinitely small to the infinietly large, and this seems to be yet another example of math and physics catching up with spirituality/metaphysics

Quantum physics may just be that badly needed reconciliation between eastern and western, scientific and spiritual modes of thought.

So i should probably learn to understand some of it!

:blush:


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Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Diploid]
    #3195711 - 09/29/04 03:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I dub the moral subatomic particles (drum roll please): a moron. :tongue2:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Swami]
    #3196124 - 09/29/04 05:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

LMAO... hey, we're trying to have a serious conversation here... stop making me laugh!  :grin: :tongue:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3196633 - 09/29/04 07:31 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

"Metaphysical inquiry has led me to believe long ago that conciousness exists at every level from the infinitely small to the infinietly large, and this seems to be yet another example of math and physics catching up with spirituality/metaphysics"

Actually, if the Penrose/Hameroff model is correct, then a certain amount of complexity is needed before the networks are complex enough to support the quantum collapse needed. Or something like that.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Consciousness at the Planck Scale? [Re: tomk]
    #3208360 - 10/02/04 11:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, if the Penrose/Hameroff model is correct, then a certain amount of complexity is needed before the networks are complex enough to support the quantum collapse needed. Or something like that.


Either sufficient complexity in a short time or sufficient time in a less-complex network.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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