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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4527977 -

"Interesting question.

Consciousness is contained in the brain yet can influence the brain just like anything else. Your vision is contained within the brain, yet when you see something it still changes the brain as the brain responds and makes the image. Subjective experience doesn't interface with physical matter, subjective experience is physical matter just like the program you're using right now is physical matter. It's extremely complex wiring, but that doesn't make Internet Explorer or Firefox separate from matter. The image of Firefox is in the matter with which it's communicated (the monitor) and the program itself is contained in the matter which creates it (the computer). Nothing is actually separate from matter"

subjective experience is physical matter? i always thought it was subjective experience. from the article

"Particles are not conductors by themselves, just like they are not conscious, and most things made of particles (wood, plastic, glass, etc. etc.) are not conductors (and maybe have no consciousness), but each single particle in the universe has an electrical charge and each single particle in the universe has a property, say, C. That property C is the one that allows our brain to be conscious. I am not claiming that each single particle is conscious or that each single piece of matter in the universe is conscious. I am only arguing that each single particle has this property C which, under the special circumstances of our brain configuration (and maybe other brain configurations as well and maybe even things with no brain) yields consciousness. "

i don't understand where we are in dissagreement anymore, i am not saying the mind is something seperate from the brain. i agree that the state of conciousness we experience correlates exactly with the physical arrangement of our brain. what i am saying is that the the property C is a property of the universe.

i also don't understand your hardware software examples. i understand that the image on my moniter is inseperable from the hardware in my computer. however switching off my minitor does not affect my computer's ability to run software. why would it be any different with a brain? you also keep ignorning my unconciouss universe example. would a universe exactly like ours minus conciounsess exist? if we assume conciousness is experience are you then saying that experience appeared from nothing the moment the first organism became conciouss? and what evolutionary advantage could the first conciouss organism possibly have had?

"given all the evidence, einsteinian relativity is more parsimonious than newtonian mechanics. certain things are unexplained in newtonian mechanics that einsteinian relativity can explain. what does quantum mechanics explain that classical physics brain doesn't?"

how a brain becomes conciouss.


"as matter affects matter, mind affects mind?"

what is matter and what is mind?



"do you have an example.."

sure, computer chess machines are often able to beat the world's top grand masters. the human has a subjective experience of the chess match while the computer does not (i assume). however this doesn't seem to hinder the computer's ability to play chess. i don't see why a powerful enough computer would be unable to guide the behavior of animals in the wild either. i find it a highly unlikely notion that at some point one animal was born with a bio computer (brain) that contained subjective experience as the result of some mutation and i fail to see what advantage this would provide (nor do i see why a mutation would result in something entirely new like subjective experience to suddenly snap into existance). i also don't see how the subjective experience would "double back" and exert influence on the computations of the brain. why wouldn't it simply be along for the ride?

Edited by Deviate (08/12/05 08:32 PM)

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4528024 -

I think you replied to the wrong person :confused:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4528037 -

didnt i reply to ravus and crunchytoast? i should probably stop replying to this thread anyway as most the points i am making are already more eloquently stated in the article itself.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4528069 -

I think you replied to the wrong person

Is there really such a thing as a "wrong person"?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4528085 -

My user name is at the top of your reply as if you replied to me.

And you are right, they are in the article. If they missed them, they must have different waves collapsing that are not condensating to cognate comprehension of those sections.  They got different probability waves. :lol: Maybe their protein tuning forks are set at a different pitch. :lol: Just playing around

This stuff is so cool.

I even found up ahead where vortices's came into play as quantum spin and some other stuff I hoped to find. Keep having to take breaks because I get so excited I loose focus.:lol: Still have 2 pages left to absorb.

I say wrap it.  If you feel strongly there is an interface, why waste time with people who don't? It turns into a right and wrong debate when neither side having proof so it will go nowhere but down the drain. Total waste of energy to do anything other then explore it with the intent to take it even further in theory and have stuff to test out metaphysically.

Hey, at least we found out who else here is interested in and following this stuff. We know who we can PM to discuss it further with if any of us wants to. :thumbup:

I know I want to be alone with my thoughts on this one for a while. Lots to sort through and test out before I run my trap any more on it.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4528396 -

yes, debating it for the sake of being right becomes pointless. however i will make the prediction that in the next 50-100 years science will revolutionize our understanding of concioussness which will inevitably coincide with the creation of a new worldview (beyond materialism). only time can prove me right or wrong.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4528409 -

So quantum physics isn't materialistic?

If anything we've moved from a non-materialistic viewpoint, like vitalism and the idea of having souls, into having something more true and scientific, like modern chemistry and biology. Usually moving away from materialism is decadence of knowledge, so I'll match your prediction with one of my own and say science will move into a more and more materialistic viewpoint, hopefully wiping out the ideas of God, the soul and the added significance to consciousness until we're determined to be just the sum total of our natural selection-created cells.

Just a prediction, but unless science turns completely the other way it seems to be the way things are moving.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Ravus]
    #4528632 -

quantum physics is beyond materialism in the sense that it embraces both the materialistic veiwpoint and the relativistic viewpoint. remember that einstein showed that matter is a form of energy, thus our understanding must progress to the point where matter and energy cease to be thought of as seperate things.

ideas like God and the soul will not be wiped out by science as they are not based in science. the soul is illusiory, it exists as an appearance. explaining the source that gives rise to its appearance will not negate its existance, similarly to how explaining the cause of the water mirages you see on a hot day will not stop you from seeing the mirages. it's quite possible that science will explain in scientific terms what it is that people have previously called the soul and what people have been calling God or even create a new conception of God. the whole point is that these seemingly contradictory viewpoints are both true depending on your own level of understanding. the fact that you use the word "hopefully" makes me why you wish to see things pan out that way, shouldn't you be more concerned with finding the truth whatever it may be (even something unexpected)? something you should consider is what is the standard for what's real? aren't illusions still real in some sense? remember humans shape their own reality.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4528661 -

Quote:
quantum physics is beyond materialism in the sense that it embraces both the materialistic veiwpoint and the relativistic viewpoint. remember that einstein showed that matter is a form of energy, thus our understanding must progress to the point where matter and energy cease to be thought of as seperate things.



I'm not arguing with that, but the particles in quantum physics (as everything is) are not actually particles, they're a combination of a wave and a particle. The distinction between energy and matter becomes less relevant on the quantum realm, but it still says that all of reality is simply these wave particles and is therefore materialistic. After all, all that materialism states is that everything is made of "material", which on the quantum level is simply the particles and antiparticles which create everything.

Quote:
ideas like God and the soul will not be wiped out by science as they are not based in science.


Not based in it, but they are still affected by it. As scientific knowledge and explanations for the universe rise, the need for God and mystical explanations falls.

Quote:
the fact that you use the word "hopefully" makes me why you wish to see things pan out that way, shouldn't you be more concerned with finding the truth whatever it may be (even something unexpected)? something you should consider is what is the standard for what's real? aren't illusions still real in some sense? remember humans shape their own reality.


If humans shape their own reality, then what's wrong with my hope for the way science will work out? I am shaping reality, after all.

I hope that science will one day grow stronger and dominate mystical explanations because humans need a good foundation for Nihilism to sweep over them. A conflict of interests, perhaps, but in the end Nihilism would allow us to give up the old illusions and actually delve deeper into science than we ever have before.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4528707 -

just to provide an example of what i'm getting at...


i did not believe in demons or demonic possesion, that is i did not believe in them until i was possesed by a demon on a mushroom trip. now of course i understand that it was all in my mind and ingesting the psilocybin gave rise to the experience of possesion, i interpret the experinece in a purely scientific way. the lesson is that now i know what people are talking about when they talk about "battling demons". when you are engrossed in an experience the underlying causes of the experience are not important, the experience is very real (does understanding the way your taste buds function take away from the taste of food? is that all you think about when you eat?). since primitive humans had no science they formed "experiential maps" or systems of understanding based on their own experience of reality, hence the poetic terms like soul and God. they weren't concerned with explaining experiencial relationships in terms of neurochemistry because the science of neurochemistry didn't exist. they were concerned with explaining them in terms that other people would understand, so for instance you could say if you are possessed by a demon do this to cure yourself. now humans have moved into a more rational state of conciousness in which they are willing to accept more rational explanations for their experiences rather than Gods and magic, this doesn't mean that Gods don't exist though, they just don't exist as what people have previously concieved of them as being.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4528722 -

"Not based in it, but they are still affected by it. As scientific knowledge and explanations for the universe rise, the need for God and mystical explanations falls.
"

yes, exactly. but it doesn't mean mystical explanations are wrong, they are just explanations from an experiencial perspective and can still be useful in advancing understanding when properly used ( although they have a far greater potential to be misused than scientific explanations which is why science is my only hope for mankind right now.)

for example buddhism has given me better methods for controlling myself psychologically than studying science because science has not yet advanced to the point where it can tell me how to operate my own mind. that isn't even what science sets out to do. the experiencial perspective useing metaphor is still useful, once it is understood what the metaphor means the need for peotic sounding mystical beliefs dissapears.

Edited by Deviate (08/13/05 01:08 AM)

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4528797 -

as a side note, i believe much of mysticism is a front put up to make the truth sound socially acceptable. most people do not really want to know the truth and if it were preached to them many would run away in fear. the idea of spiritual teachings is to make it sound presentable enough that people may absorb it slowly and gradually raise their awareness.

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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4529521 -

Nice posts Deviate!

I think the communication gap we are having with Ravus here comes down to his understanding of Occam's Razor and reductionism and use of templates.

As our understanding of systems evolve, they become more complex, not less.

Tissue was broken down to molecules to DNA to atoms and now quarks.

Tissue was one material and now we have 5 as we understand it better. It became more complex, not less.

What is a quark made of? where did it come from? How does it work? What is that made of? Where did it come from? How does it work?

Our understanding is only going to continue to become more complex as we continue to explore and make discoveries, not the other way around.

As science looks into the quantum field for answers to broadening the understanding of conscious awareness, it will naturally evolve into something more complex.

Correct me if I am wrong Ravus, but you seem to be using Occam's razor to shave away what is there in a back tracking way and soon, will have yourself back to a simple lump of flesh to keep it easy. Be careful with that thing. It may be cutting learning new things away from you. :lol:

Personally, I think people start shutting off and tuning out to new information when they just can't comprehend it anymore. It's understandable and probably a survival mechanism to keep us from short circuiting and or developing a mental disorder.

Here's a metaphysical take on this understanding. Everything physical has a template and form for it in the quantum geometry field made up first aka morph field.

When it cohesies into matter, some realized, made real, the form is filled.

Take that an apply it to how we first speculate and hypothesis when we get new ideas for what something may be or can be. That idea is a form or a template. Then science proceeds to look for a fit, "evidence" /something to fill it with.

The form has to be there first for that to happen, for a new realization, making something become real to take place.

For any of us who were speculating on this and had our own hypothesis loosely formed, much of this research fits our forms and had a place to go to make sense of it, keeping order.

For a reader who had no form prepared for it, the information had no where orderly to go so it was discarded.

Looking at it this way helps me to understand why so much info that gets presented here is easily understood, accepted or realized by some and not others.

This was sort of explained in the article, where it discussed having to ask questions of nature first and that nature will fill the void. It seems, the void/unknown doesn't get filled until we have some ideas about it first, a place to put it. The working form gets set up first and then, it can be fulfilled with an experiential realization or a scientific theory or new fact when or if discovered.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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