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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter
    #4520562 - 08/11/05 01:47 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I was googling "human consciousness interface" and found this site.

The article is quite interesting for anyone interested in conscioussness interfaced with matter. I thought to share it since it gets discussed here a lot.

http://www.thymos.com/science/qc.html

Please read the article if you are going to post in this thread I ask.

If you care not to read it and want to discuss what you know about consciousness interfacing with matter, then maybe start your own thread.

This post is about the article and is is meant to discuss what is being explored in the article.

Perhaps copy and paste from it what you wish to comment on so we know if you read it or not. Points taken from it can be debated. Thats fine. Lets keep it to the research from the article.

Points not taken from it and discussed deserve their own post as they are not based on the article. They will have nothing to do with the article being presented and the information in it.

Note* The article is an exploratory one. It's 14 printed pages long and packed with information. If you bother to read through 14 pages, it shows you are seriously interested in exploring this topic.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (08/12/05 12:14 AM)


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Quantum Consciousness [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4520815 - 08/11/05 02:47 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Very interesting read....!  :smile:


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Quantum Consciousness [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4520934 - 08/11/05 03:21 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

It seems trendy to attach the word "quantum" to anything connected to New Age thinking, but I wonder what it really has to do with anything but physics?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Quantum Consciousness [Re: zorbman]
    #4521771 - 08/11/05 01:42 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:

The research article comes with a Bibliography. It didn't read new agey at all to me. Science has been studying quantum mechanics since before the "new age" right? Neural researchers continue to try and understand how consciousness interfaces with the physical body, right? You know they don't know yet right?

That's what this article is about. What they know so far and theories they are looking into.

It's mostly on science physics and are thinking they may be taking the wrong approach using the laws of physics and are now looking at applying quantum mechanics to solve the mystery.

You'd be surprised at ow interesting this is.

I didn't realize there was a "new agey" bias to quantum mechanics and consciousness research. Maybe I should change the name of this post if people are over looking a very interesting and eye opening article because of that.

If you have been involved in any of the discussions here on it you will most likely appreciate this article and learn something new from it. I did. There was so much information I haven't even processed an 1/8 of it yet. I printed it up and am going to take more time with it today. :thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Quantum Consciousness [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4521809 - 08/11/05 01:49 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

i already posted that in this thread which you replied to http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4247910 but i wish this type of research was paid attention and discussed more. it seems to me that even people who are very interested in science are often very ignorant about conciousness.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Quantum Consciousness [Re: Deviate]
    #4521936 - 08/11/05 02:20 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry, it was late that night. Last night I got back on the case and ran off on a google search with a new idea for how to word it before I went back to your link.

Your talking about the pondering thread right?

Considering you referred it to me and I found it right off on my own, going after the same rabbit from two different approaches is pretty neat.

I was wanting to get my hands on information JUST like this and didn't know how to start searching for it or what I was really searching for. Funny how you sent it to me and I wasn't "home" for the first delivery, but I got it on the next delivery attempt.

It was 3 in the morning last night when I found it and breezed through most of it. I printed it up and can't wait to sink into it slowly today.

Anyhoo, I agree, this type of research is highly worthy of attention and discussion. Yes, there is some assumption out there that the brain is consciousness. That is no where near being proofed with scientific evidence. This article pretty much blows it out of the water.

Give me a chance to read and absorb it thoroughly and maybe there will be something I can start a discussion on and or questions for you. I want to be in the right zone when I read it thoroughly and it'll be later this evening. I'll probably get a lot of insight from in between the lines. (from the cracks they discussed) he he he

I love this stuff!!!!!!!!!!! I feel like a kid an Christmas. Even dreamt about Christmas last night. The Christams dreams were followed by ones where I was living in a cool new place where everything took on a wonderful quality.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Quantum Consciousness [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4523452 - 08/11/05 08:35 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

that was easily the most interesting article I have read in a LONG time.

I love this stuff!!!!!!!!!!! I feel like a kid an Christmas.

yeah me too. :grin:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4523483 - 08/11/05 08:42 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I don't really believe it. There's not enough evidence that neurons cannot create consciousness, so to jump to this quantum assumption without additional evidence would be a violation of Occam's razor. Neurons already have more evidence than quantum mechanics anyway, seeing as, while we might not be able to fully explain consciousness, we can see it's contained in neurons and that damage to the neurons will damage consciousness. It's working back, but successful at showing at least simple evidence that neurobiologists are looking into.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Ravus]
    #4523514 - 08/11/05 08:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

while we might not be able to fully explain consciousness, we can see it's contained in neurons and that damage to the neurons will damage consciousness




did you read the article? nowhere did it say consciousness wasn't seated in the neurons. it was a pretty solid argument for the mechanisms of how consciousness operates in the brain.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4523642 - 08/11/05 09:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Added to favorites. Will read maybe in a few minutes.


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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: psychomime]
    #4523660 - 08/11/05 09:32 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I read it, but by neurons I mean neurons in the traditional sense. It doesn't have enough evidence to make such a huge jump against Occam's razor. Why does there have to be a virtual second system? We may not know enough to be able to positively conclude that consciousenss lies within the neurons, but if neurons can send synaptic messages there doesn't seem to be a need to create a virtual system using quantum tunneling.

It assumes that consciousness is so great it requires a completely additional system that utilizes quantum mechanics, but this is a huge leap based on mostly nothing.

They constantly state that "classical physics cannot explain consciousness" without explaining their statement more, because really the entire article rests upon this statement. If the traditional view of an immensely complex neural web in the brain is what creates consciousness is not assumed to be false, then they have nothing to go on. They almost try to assume that consciousness is something special, but in my point of view an extremely complex web of neurons sending signals is adequate to create human logic, perception and consciousness, which is why I call bullshit. :shrug:


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4523754 - 08/11/05 09:57 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I don't really believe it. There's not enough evidence that neurons cannot create consciousness, so to jump to this quantum assumption without additional evidence would be a violation of Occam's razor. Neurons already have more evidence than quantum mechanics anyway, seeing as, while we might not be able to fully explain consciousness, we can see it's contained in neurons and that damage to the neurons will damage consciousness. It's working back, but successful at showing at least simple evidence that neurobiologists are looking into.





there is zero evidence to suggest that neurons can create conciousness, especially considering that we don't even have a concrete understanding of what conciouness is. any thoery which suggests that conciousness interfaces with matter through the brain would explain any change in conciousness due to changes in neurons equally well. whether it is a violation of Occam's razor totally depends on the point of view from which you approach the problem. my own life experience would suggest it is a violation of Occam's razor to postulate any extraneous thing as necessary for the exstance of simple awareness/conciousness. here is a link with some buddhist arguments against materialism http://www.geocities.com/scimah/. don't you think its an odd coincidence that people have reached this conclusion many times over accorss cultures? even jesus said spirit (conciousness) was more fundamental than flesh and beleiving that spirit came from flesh is a much more farfetched, mystical idea with absolutely no evidence. all the classical evidence is explained equally well by opposing theories.


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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4523769 - 08/11/05 10:00 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I read it, but by neurons I mean neurons in the traditional sense. It doesn't have enough evidence to make such a huge jump against Occam's razor. Why does there have to be a virtual second system? We may not know enough to be able to positively conclude that consciousenss lies within the neurons, but if neurons can send synaptic messages there doesn't seem to be a need to create a virtual system using quantum tunneling.

It assumes that consciousness is so great it requires a completely additional system that utilizes quantum mechanics, but this is a huge leap based on mostly nothing.

They constantly state that "classical physics cannot explain consciousness" without explaining their statement more, because really the entire article rests upon this statement. If the traditional view of an immensely complex neural web in the brain is what creates consciousness is not assumed to be false, then they have nothing to go on. They almost try to assume that consciousness is something special, but in my point of view an extremely complex web of neurons sending signals is adequate to create human logic, perception and consciousness, which is why I call bullshit.




how could fundamentally dead matter ever create conciousness merely by arranging itself in a pattern? what does complexity have to do with it?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Ravus]
    #4523794 - 08/11/05 10:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

The problem that still exists Ravus, is that there is no evidence neurons create it either. So far, the evidence just shows how it processes it.

Science has been looking for it in the neurons. Shit we are down to DNA mapping. They have attacked this problem with every law of physics and everything they know and have been stumped.

They started looking at it using quantum mechanics and there has been reason to continue the research in that direction.

Whats the big deal if it turns out that consciousness is created in the quantum field. Science is looking into it for whats behind everything else physical. What makes this so different.

It's to premature to call BS on it when there is no evidence consciousness is created in the neurons. Besides, there's not much to call BS on either. No claims were made that consciousness is created in the quantum field. Just some working hypothesis right now and interesting considerations.

Doesn't hurt to keep an open mind and keep on top of the research.

Psycho mime,

That's how I feel about this article too. It's been a Looooooong time since I read something this interesting and exciting.

Glad you dug it!

hahahah I typed this whole reply with that man staring at me from that woman's ass in your sig RedNukleus.

I had an unexpected company drop by. I am off to give it a thorough read now. So far I just did a quick breeze over and didn't even get to the end.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4523804 - 08/11/05 10:09 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Perhapse we are seaching for an abstract ghost here.
Maybe we will never find consciosuness because there is none, and all this exeprience is just some confusing paradoxal game of dead perception


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4523830 - 08/11/05 10:18 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

We posted at the same time deviate. Sorry for the repeat coming at you Ravus.

Oldwood, who for sure knows? No body right now. We know the quantum field exists. Science found that as they moved to a smaller scale. It's reasonable to consider consciousness may be found there.

Maybe it is an abstract element, maybe even ghost like. Millions if not billions of us want to know though whatever turns up if anything ever does.

For those interested, lets just keep sharing what we find or think on it.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4523838 - 08/11/05 10:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I like that it explores the idea that things other than human brains could have consciousness.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4523846 - 08/11/05 10:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

how could fundamentally dead matter ever create conciousness merely by arranging itself in a pattern? what does complexity have to do with it?




What is "dead matter"? That assumes that matter somehow changes between death and life, but it is only the configuration of the matter that changes.

When you die, the matter that makes you up is still the same. The atoms are still the same as they were only a few minutes ago when you were a living, thinking human being. Evidently the matter's complex configuration is all that matters.

It's amazing to me that we humans can move matter together to create computers much more mathematically adept than humans will ever be, but it is entirely within the complexity and configuration of the computer that its purpose comes about. It's not just a block of silicon with wires in it, it's an entire machine working to produce results, just like the human brain.

Consciousness is only seen as special because we haven't yet produced it in a computer, but truely it isn't any different from any of the other abilities granted to humans through natural selection. And that "dead matter" you speak of doesn't changed in the quantum theory; neurons are made of the quantum "dead matter" so that philosophical argument seems moot in the face of it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Ravus]
    #4523876 - 08/11/05 11:03 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

no, there is so assumption matter somehow changes through death and life. by dead i only meant unconciouss (would a universe just like ours except with no conciousness be considered to contain life? would it even exist at all?). in the quantom view conciousness isn't something created afresh, its a property of energy itself. conciousness is energy and matter (another form of energy) only serves to organize it into something much more complex like a mind. the notion that conciousness magically appears when matter assumes some formation is an extremely farfetched idea with zero evidence. from that assumption it could follow that any physical process is accompanied by a subjective conciouss experience, why is conciousness limited to the arragement found in the human brain? if the brain works purely mechanically what is the function of something extra like conciousness at all?


Edited by Deviate (08/11/05 11:05 PM)


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4523903 - 08/11/05 11:11 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"the notion that conciousness 'magically' appears when matter assumes some formation" is not something that is being discussed. Clearly consciousness has something to do with the arrangment of matter, and no one mentioned magic.


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