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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4526111 - 08/12/05 01:23 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Next we will research how many trees make a forest.




Next, maybe you will. :lol:

Reasearching the works of these men is turning out to be more interesting and inspiring then the article, for me anyway.

My brand of spirituality is more of a meta-physical one. That is, how spirit(awareness/lifeforce energy) interfaces with matter. I think someday science will get it figured out. To see where they are at is very exciting to me.

I wish I could be in an experimental lab with all of these guys minds. What a dream come true that would be. I wish I could give them my ideas for what tests and experiments to run and point them in directions. I wish I could tell them what measurment tools to work on developing next.

Maybe you think sciences efforts in this area are futile. I think they are getting closer and on the verge of life altering break throughs in discovery. I think they will change the shape of the world as we know it.

I can enjoy the roller coaster ride and study the engineering of how the ride works and what makes it so much fun and scary yet relatively safe at the same time.

TomCat,

I use computer analogies myself. When discussing personal understandings of how we experience this to work, it's easy to pull from what we know about how computers work to communicate concepts.
I have read elsewhere a handful of times that looking to the computer to understand consciousness interfacing with matter is barking up the wrong tree. I have experiences that have me agreeing with that.

Computers don't deal with vortices and pressure systems. These guys have to look there next for finding the interface in our DNA.

Five, Good question about defining what is meant here by consciousness. We are working with a triad facet of the waking conscious "cognition", sub conscious "dream imagination states" and unconscious "not knowing/lack of awareness". Perhaps awareness to lack of it is a better word/phrase.

Well, I still have to get to researching the New Age BS artists of,

James Culberson-pioneering research in robotics,
Henry Strap- American Physicist,
Von Neuman-introduced ontoligical approach to quantum theory, Shroedinger-Shroedingers Process of machanical determinsitics, Heisenberg-Heisenberg Process of quantum mechanics,
Dirac-Diracs Process in quantum theory
Karl Pigram-Advanced holonomic model of memory
Fourier-Fourier Transformations in quantum theory
gabor- gabors uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics
Heisenberg and Von Neumann-Brain as quantum measuring device theory
Japanese Physicist Kunio Yasue and American Physicist Gordon Globus-claim that brain substrates upohold second order quantum fields, which can not be treated as measuring devices.
Hiroomi Umezawa-Concieved corticons as more primitive then neurons, developed quantum neurophysics that explains how the classical world can originate from quantum processess in the brain.
Froehlich- Frohelic Condensation
Roger Penrose- british LEADING physicist of our time
Plank- Plank Scale
Saul-Paul Sirag- Hyperspace theory
Erich harth-Physicist
Erich Harth-Physicist, hypercycles quantum theory
Alwyn Scott-American Physicist

With this list and the two I posted prior, it's a no wonder this article is a stunning read! I'm going to the water park today. I havn't even finished absorbing the whole article yet.:lol:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4526485 - 08/12/05 03:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Many many more bios to go, only on page 3 out of 14.

At this time, I would like to remind everyone that Ravus called the work of these men New Age Bullshit. He is entitled to his opinion.:confused:

Ravus, may I ask for your credentials and accomplishments in the fields of Neural Science and Quantum Mechanics?

off to bed now.........:kiss:




I called the idea that consciousness is a physical property of the universe the product of New Age bullshit, and the fact that this theory isn't very common in the scientific world shows that many brilliant scientists also don't see the value of it. We're not doing ad hominem attacks, we're talking about the idea that consciousness is a physical property of the universe, and that seems as ridiculous as saying emotions or software are physical properties of the universe. Your theory is a very minor one in the scientific world, and therefore it is not just a few dissenting voices, it's the majority of scientists who overlook it. The reasons seem obvious to me; the statement that consciousness is something more than neurotransmitters in the brain is illogical and excessive.

I'm not the one arguing here as much as the entire neurobiological field. The brain is made of neurons releasing neurotransmitters in the synapses, which, on a massive scale like the brain, transforms this complex hardware into the subjective programs we see as our reality. The only reason these subjective programs are so different than computer programs is that they include within them the feeling of subjectivity so that we cannot see beyond them, while in computer programs we just feel they are an external dissociated part of reality from us. The reason we feel this subjectivity is up to debate, but should be addressed in evolutionary terms, not excessive theories trying to say that this consciousness is the Tao. :smirk:

Evidently those who didn't feel the biological "software" as part of their subjective consciousness didn't survive, but this simply required rewiring of the brain. The reason they didn't survive is possibly because if the software seemed external then they wouldn't be attached enough to it to fight bone and tooth and instead were controlled more by sheer instinct, but again no neurologist claims to know everything. Yet the lack of understanding the inner part of the moon doesn't make scientists give up common theories and instead say it's made of cheese; it just makes them say we need to look into the common evidence and scientifically supported theories more.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4526512 - 08/12/05 03:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Methinks you miss my point. Consciousness, like a forest, is a concept, not a specific thing to be researched.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4526536 - 08/12/05 03:37 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

from a scientific standpoint, it matters whether the theory is the simplest explanation given the available evidence. this metric exists irrespective of the accomplishments or intelligence of the folks proposing the theory.

an intelligent, accomplished scientist may believe in fairies and unicorns, for example, but that does not make the theory the simplest explanation for the available evidence.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Swami]
    #4526565 - 08/12/05 03:43 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Methinks you miss my point. Consciousness, like a forest, is a concept, not a specific thing to be researched.




Is it though? All words are simply concepts, but the objects they represent can often be researched, even the mental ones. Perception, logic, love, all of these things can be researched, so why not consciousness? Why can't we make someone lose consciousness and test what areas of the brain change their functioning? Perhaps even go from there and try to isolate certain areas of the brain and see if just one area or a few produce the feeling of subjective consciousness in the subject.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Ravus]
    #4526640 - 08/12/05 04:01 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Ok then. You have the best minds and equipment in the world and unlimited funding. Tell me how you would determine how many trees make up a forest.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Swami]
    #4526646 - 08/12/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Cut all of them down and throw them in the ocean, keeping track along the way.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4526699 - 08/12/05 04:12 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Consciousness, like a forest, is a concept, not a specific thing to be researched.




well this is an interesting perspecive. is it outside the purview of science to discover how the brain constructs concepts?

i mean, the thing about beauty- beauty seems like a value judgment to me, whereas consciousness seems like an objective reality. either an object has consciousness (a living person) or doesn't (a rock)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4526774 - 08/12/05 04:35 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"I called the idea that consciousness is a physical property of the universe the product of New Age bullshit, and the fact that this theory isn't very common in the scientific world shows that many brilliant scientists also don't see the value of it. We're not doing ad hominem attacks, we're talking about the idea that consciousness is a physical property of the universe, and that seems as ridiculous as saying emotions or software are physical properties of the universe. Your theory is a very minor one in the scientific world, and therefore it is not just a few dissenting voices, it's the majority of scientists who overlook it. The reasons seem obvious to me; the statement that consciousness is something more than neurotransmitters in the brain is illogical and excessive."

what seems rediculous to you may be common sense to someone else. please explain what exactly is illogical about that statement. i will remind you that you still have provided absolutely no evidence at all to support your claim. you're argument is basically: "this is what seems most logical to me, therefore any other perspective is illogical."

" I'm not the one arguing here as much as the entire neurobiological field. The brain is made of neurons releasing neurotransmitters in the synapses, which, on a massive scale like the brain, transforms this complex hardware into the subjective programs we see as our reality. The only reason these subjective programs are so different than computer programs is that they include within them the feeling of subjectivity so that we cannot see beyond them, while in computer programs we just feel they are an external dissociated part of reality from us. The reason we feel this subjectivity is up to debate, but should be addressed in evolutionary terms, not excessive theories trying to say that this consciousness is the Tao."

why should it be addressed in evolutionary terms when the function of conciousness isn't even cleary understood?

"Evidently those who didn't feel the biological "software" as part of their subjective consciousness didn't survive, but this simply required rewiring of the brain. The reason they didn't survive is possibly because if the software seemed external then they wouldn't be attached enough to it to fight bone and tooth and instead were controlled more by sheer instinct, but again no neurologist claims to know everything. Yet the lack of understanding the inner part of the moon doesn't make scientists give up common theories and instead say it's made of cheese; it just makes them say we need to look into the common evidence and scientifically supported theories more. "

you're saying that conciousness is nothing more than the physical brain but at the same time saying that conciousness can influence the physical the brain? how is this possible? how does subjective experience interface with and influence physical matter? why isn't it "just along for the ride"?


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4526792 - 08/12/05 04:44 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

"this is what seems most logical to me, therefore any other perspective is illogical."



i think there are plenty of reasons in this thread; namely, classicial brain dynamics consciousness is a more parsimonious theory than classical brain dynamics plus quantum dynamics conssciousness.

Quote:

you're saying that conciousness is nothing more than the physical brain but at the same time saying that conciousness can influence the physical the brain? how is this possible? how does subjective experience interface with and influence physical matter? why isn't it "just along for the ride"?




maybe becasue they're the same thing


--------------------
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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4526798 - 08/12/05 04:47 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

mean, the thing about beauty- beauty seems like a value judgment to me, whereas consciousness seems like an objective reality. either an object has consciousness (a living person) or doesn't (a rock)

There are many assumptions in that statement. Look deeper.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Swami]
    #4526832 - 08/12/05 05:04 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"i think there are plenty of reasons in this thread; namely, classicial brain dynamics consciousness is a more parsimonious theory than classical brain dynamics plus quantum dynamics conssciousness."

that's not positive evidence though. newtonian mechanincs may be more parsimonious than einstein relativity but in order for us to make a conclusion in favor of it we would need corroborating evidence.

"maybe becasue they're the same thing"

if its the same thing than it could not influence itself. there would be no behavioral difference between a conciouss mind and an unconciouss one.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Swami]
    #4526871 - 08/12/05 05:13 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i'm trying to.

are you saying they're the same on the subjective level? they're both subjective appraisals of reality? still, while science is ultimately subjective, that doesn't means that consciousness wouldn't fall under it's purview

the question of a forest- how many trees are in it? two? three? one hundred? one thousand?

i suppose you could argue that different beings have degrees of consciousness, just as different forests have different numbers of trees, and ultimately, it comes down to a subjective appraisal whether X trees qualifies as a forest.

which is a good point.

i wonder if different configurations of matter qualify as different levels of consciousness- empty space, inanimate matter, single neuronal organisms, organisms with neural feedback mechanisms, organisms with language...

as long as there's an agreed-upon definition of a real phenomenon ("a forest has 100 trees, for the intent of this discussion"), i think it can be approached scientifically.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4526877 - 08/12/05 05:15 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

you're saying that conciousness is nothing more than the physical brain but at the same time saying that conciousness can influence the physical the brain? how is this possible? how does subjective experience interface with and influence physical matter? why isn't it "just along for the ride"?




Interesting question.

Consciousness is contained in the brain yet can influence the brain just like anything else. Your vision is contained within the brain, yet when you see something it still changes the brain as the brain responds and makes the image. Subjective experience doesn't interface with physical matter, subjective experience is physical matter just like the program you're using right now is physical matter. It's extremely complex wiring, but that doesn't make Internet Explorer or Firefox separate from matter. The image of Firefox is in the matter with which it's communicated (the monitor) and the program itself is contained in the matter which creates it (the computer). Nothing is actually separate from matter.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4526916 - 08/12/05 05:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

that's not positive evidence though. newtonian mechanincs may be more parsimonious than einstein relativity but in order for us to make a conclusion in favor of it we would need corroborating evidence.



given all the evidence, einsteinian relativity is more parsimonious than newtonian mechanics. certain things are unexplained in newtonian mechanics that einsteinian relativity can explain. what does quantum mechanics explain that classical physics brain doesn't?

Quote:

if its the same thing than it could not influence itself.



as matter affects matter, mind affects mind?

Quote:

there would be no behavioral difference between a conciouss mind and an unconciouss one.



do you have an example...in mind?


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OfflineFiveLights
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Ravus]
    #4526925 - 08/12/05 05:27 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The meanings of most words are context-dependent. So to ask how many forests are in a tree is an unanswerable question. For example, if you ask where you can find a bear, and I say, "Look in the forest" and point to a group of trees, it doesn't matter if there are only 30 trees. You'll know that I mean to look in whatever area that I'm most likely referring to, based on your knowledge of the language.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: FiveLights]
    #4526934 - 08/12/05 05:30 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

That's why you should define all the words and subjects before delving into a project.

If you say "How many trees are in this forest?" you need to define what a tree is, whether there's a minimum age for a tree to be considered a tree, how to determine a tree from other tall shrubs or plants, where the boundaries of the forest are and whether trees on this boundary should be considered part of the forest.

But after the definitions are there it's pure brute force.


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Offlinetomk
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Ravus]
    #4527029 - 08/12/05 05:51 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

BTW, to the original poster, it becomes new age BS when idiots like us, who cannot possibly understand the mathematical underpinnings of quantum physics, start talking like we can see the relationships between them as if we actually understood all the mathematics and whatnot. The original researchers are skilled, and not spouting new age BS. However, when I say the same thing without mathematics, I am spouting new age BS.

Also, remember that there is a huge history of the greatest scientists of the time being hugely preoccupied by pretty trival things. Newton was fascinated by astrology and biblical geneology, for example. Many early chemists were alchemists. Just because these guys are great thinkers doesn't mean their pet metaphysical projects are going to bear fruit.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: tomk]
    #4527036 - 08/12/05 05:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The mathematics of quantum mechanics are interesting, but I haven't seen an equation that shows consciousness is a physical property of the universe in all of my searchings.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: tomk]
    #4527799 - 08/12/05 09:16 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for saving me time tomk. I almost posted something like that pretty much saying the same thing, but had to jet when I thought to.

Maybe that's why this article gives some perspective to this forum of "lay people" who can only talk out of our experiential asses about this stuff.

In my next life, I am coming back as a PSI Calculus Physics Major. Until then, I will just be me.

Now, I am going to make some hot tea, curl up on the couch, grab a cozy blanket and finish absorbing the rest of this article.

I enjoyed reading through the earlier conversations guys!


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