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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3927958 - 03/16/05 10:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

That was neat! The reply read like the person in your avatar said it.

It was not I, that called humans "special", I just think the complexity of the human design is pretty damn amazing, then again, I am a female that created a human life and I have never known an awe and wonder like I did first looking into her eyes.

So you think no one had a "sense of wonder" before the "age of materialism"? The wonder and awe being expressed here is over a product of the natural world-the human being. You think pre material age humans did NOT experience wonder and awe over products of the natural world?

I don't understand the connection between the materalistic age creating a sense of awe for the natural wonders of the world in modern thinkers.

I await your reply as it should be rather interesting to hear how you are going to tell me a sense of wonder for the natural world didn't exist before the age of materilism. Swami wanted somthing original and I think this one is it!


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3928011 - 03/16/05 11:04 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

?

No you misunderstand. I meant the awe and wonder that we are elements and chemicals, as if they were separate somehow. Before, there was no dissection of reality into what can be called indisputable objectivity. Of course people had awe- but it had nothing to do with thinking we are stardust.

Dust from dust, ashes to ashes
Their awe lie in God
Our awe lies in a far cruder and simpler beast


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3928067 - 03/16/05 11:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

also im confused- how did my avatar have anything to do with it?

The complexity of human design is, IMO, creepy. However, my whole view is essentially a rejection of individuality as a relevant distinction. As a human, I will act so as to further human interests, most often my own and that of my kin's. I cannot escape being a human with a subjective reality which will ultimately take control of any objective reality that may exist. I work differently than most people, but that holds true for mostly all people.

However, I *am* but A human as best as I understand it. My body is very important, but I think that it is more of a link between entities, all of which would be considered me by some one else, than a being in itself. In short, evolved stardust is just stardust. When I die, my body will add to some other being's matter, or so I assume.

Where is the wonder? One day, humanity may evolve into something esle. Will only the new species be wonderous?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3928261 - 03/17/05 12:09 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I understood that well! Thanks for adding it. I think it all is wondrous old and new. I can watch the crocodiles at bush gardens for hours and they really aren't even moving and jelly fish I could watch all day. I must be be simple minded or something as an ant hill and all of its activity can captivate me for a spell.

I think what started this exchange sounds like when you replied to some comments from others about humans being 'special" from other biological designs and I didn't catch that till later.

I don't think humans or any human is more special then any other creation of the natural world and universe. Its all just as worthy of my awe and amazement. I see where you are coming from now and it sounds like you don't like the human egos idea of dominance or its drive to dominate.

I wrote here a ways back about how the plants and animals don't need humans to survive but we need them to survive. Food for thought for human dominists types.

Maybe humans will get screwed if the AI they develop turns to dominate over them.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3928310 - 03/17/05 12:25 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PsilocinSam said:
Following on from the post on AI by OldWoodSpecter.

I was wondering what the opinions would be of the statement:

"Consciousness is simply the brain's way of interpreting data given it by the senses"

(take as a subtext that consciousness arises due to the complexity of the data being processed!)

Any thoughts anyone? I'd like to hear another similar encapsulation for the other side of the argument!

That's my tank of horse flesh! :stoned::mushroom2:





senses, is simply the interpreted data, given to counsciousness.. :wink:

(by 'acting' it F.e.)


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: Gomp]
    #3928652 - 03/17/05 01:54 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

well I don't want to read all the new threads from today, I'm pretty tired, so I'm just going to respond to the conversation where it was at page 3.

freddurgan>> I understand why you think what you do. It's hard to think of consciousness different from our own, but let me try and convince you of my POV a little more. LOL!

A computer may only be patterns of 1 and 0, but our brain functions in a very similar way. Our nerves fire patterns of neurotransmitters in on/off patterns too. Empathy? Love? "Feel"? These are just PATTERNS of neuron activity. You can create these feeling and alter them with drugs or certain external stimuli. These are completely arbitrary. All in all it's just a big physical/chemical reaction. There really is NO explaination as to why we experiance it the way we do. When we think of things as "apple" we aren't really seeing or experiancing "apple" our brain goes {food> fruit> edible> etc} and then this whole pattern is arbitrarily labeled as pattern#"apple". This is all done so in some strange dance of enzymes and transmitters inside our brain.

A computer is the same thing, except it uses silicone and metal instead of nerves, and electricity instead of neurotransmitters (oh yeah, and our nerves do create a small amount electricity to help fire the signals). Take the web adress to this page for example (yeah, look up at it right now), that big long string of seemingly random characters doesn't "mean" anything to us, but it means something very specific to a computer.

Maybe this digital consciousness doesn't exist now in any obvious form because our computers are still like lower animal or even plant/fungi/bacterial reactionary type consciousness. All they need is the right structure to create more complex pattern recognition systems, and the ability to interact with the physical world and BAM! It won't be long until you have pattern recognition that is on the same scale as humans. They won't "feel" emotions because emotions are a product of hormones and bio-organic chemicals in a bio-organic system. But they will will experiance SOMETHING!

Okay, now for the water thing. This is obviously stretching pretty far into the mega-hypothetical area, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time over analyzing it. I'm just goint to say this:

If our consciousness arises from the reactions between molecules and the positive/negative interactions of molecules, then it can be assumed that consciousness is really everywhere, between every interaction. It's not something different withing space/time, but it is inherent to reality just like space/time. All it needs is the right structure.

So who really knows. Maybe water and dirt and things have the divine power that leads to consciousness. After all, if it wasn't for water, dirt, and air, life never would've come about. Consciousness seemed to just spring forth from between the atoms and molecules. Perhaps inanimate objects are actually in the "highest" form of consciousness which just happens to be the simplist. That state of consciousness that doesn't create illusions of ego, or ideas. It just IS, like God. (remember, I said perhaps)

And once we understand this, we will have the ability to make not artificial intelligence, but REAL intelligence!

**even if you still don't agree with me, I've had a very fun conversation! It may be a dumb idea, completely fanciful and romatic, but it's my way of relating how we really are and can be ONE with the universe.

I'll read the rest of these posts tommorrow.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3928820 - 03/17/05 02:49 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

"Consciousness is simply the brain's way of interpreting data given it by the senses"

There is mounting evidence that the seat of consciousness lies in Quantum Weirdness at scales below the Planck limit. If this turns out to be so, then as far as we know, it will forever be impossible to precisely characterize the mechanisms that give rise to consciousness because objects smaller than the Planck Scale make no sense; the equations of physics don't work at these scales.

To put things into perspective, consider that quarks are about 1,000 times smaller than protons; the Planck Length is 100 quadrillion times smaller than a quark. Lengths smaller than this do not make sense according to our current understanding of space-time and are as far from our ability to make direct observations of as the most distant galaxy is on the opposite end of the size scale.

As far as the possibility of one day a computer becoming sentient, this will never happen, IMO. There are a few reasons, but the most obvious is that conventional computers cannot generate true random numbers; they are deterministic. They always do the same thing given the same starting conditions. I think it will eventually be found that at least some of the mechanisms of consciousness originate in the realm of Quantum Randomness.

That said, Quantum Computers are on the very distant horizon, and they may change everything if they're ever made practical. :badcomputer:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (03/17/05 10:08 AM)


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3929611 - 03/17/05 10:44 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Well, your point is good. Computers may work in patterns of 1's and 0's, but we pretty much do too. So what's the secret? This has become much more complex throughout these 3 pages, I must say.

For instance, if we found out the exact patterns that a brain uses to decode visual data, and we understood EVERYTHING about it and made a perfect algorith, could we recreate it? Does the pattern alone give us anything? This is quite a question.

And when you said "they won't feel emotions", would they? I'm starting to wonder why not. The only reason we "feel" anything is because our nerves, but there is nothing TOO special about our nerves. They are neurons, they chain fire in a line to form a pattern of activity. What about that makes us feel? What about being touched with a flame makes it "hurt". Are the neurons just firing rapidly? Why couldn't a computer "feel", given that feelings are just neurons. The chemicals and hormones don't have anything to do with it because all those chemicals and hormones control our nerves and brain.

There is a huge, huge mystery in the middle of this that just blowing my mind.

To quantify my ideas some :

Sensation : the idea of sight, touch, taste, etc. You don't just have eyes, you "see". You don't just touch it, you "feel" it. You don't just inhale molecules into your nose, you "smell" it. There is a mechanical "touch", and a ????? "feel".

Perception : Making something out of what you just saw or touched

Consciousness : At this point I couldn't tell you

Senses -> ???? -> sensation
What allows these neural activation patterns to allow us to FEEL or EXPERIENCE these images. If I hit my finger with a hammer, all that is happening is a huge activation of nerves in my finger telling my brain "OW OW OW OW", but how does that activation link to me feeling pain?

Senses -> ???? -> perception
This one is complicated now too. I think this is more of an algorithmic idea than anything else. How does all the visual stimuli that flows into our eyes (and give the sensation of sight) get encoded (decoded?) into something useful? How does our brain put this stuff together?

Senses -> ???? -> consciousness
Well now I'm a little flamboozled. I stand by the fact that
a.) Senses are neccesary but not sufficient
but now I have
b.) What is it about the senses that amounts to experience?

But this is pretty much the problem we've been having all along. I kind of feel like I did a circular run around it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3929665 - 03/17/05 11:03 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

senses are like raw feeds to the Consciousness Engine

the data comes in - the Consciousness Engine experiences some raw data
the data triggers associations

when a simmilar pattern occurred in the past an engram was set
the new data makes that pattern chime like a tuning fork because of the engram fitting closely.

In this way the Consciousness Engine experiences recall or association.

perceptions are processed feeds to the Consciousness Engine, feeds with associations and with data discarded as well.

As the day progresses new engrams are set some are mere extensions of old ones.

among the things that resonate in the consciousness engine are reflections of itself, its origin and it predicament.

not everything is stored as engrams or extensions to engrams, some of the lush processing field is just pure enrichment and processing of senses & memory in the consciousness engine. Effervescent moments of life.

Consciousness is all of that which happens in the consciousness field.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3929979 - 03/17/05 12:38 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

for starters, youre treating this like a complicated math problem.

Quote:


Well, your point is good. Computers may work in patterns of 1's and 0's, but we pretty much do too.



No, rationalization is the process by which we act as computers do. We are not inherently boolean. If anything, chaos theory based computers would be the first step toward AI.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: Diploid]
    #3930087 - 03/17/05 01:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:

There is mounting evidence that the seat of consciousness lies in Quantum Weirdness at scales below the Planck limit.





Links please?


Quote:

To put things into perspective, consider that quarks are about 1,000 times smaller than protons; the Planck Length is 100 quadrillion times smaller than a quark. Lengths smaller than this do not make sense according to our current understanding of space-time and are as far from our ability to make direct observations of as the most distant galaxy is on the opposite end of the size scale.





Wow, that's pretty damn small. So there's really supposed to be activity going on at a such a small scale? I thought Planck's length was used as a limit where nothing could get any smaller?


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3930259 - 03/17/05 01:57 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
for starters, youre treating this like a complicated math problem.

Quote:


Well, your point is good. Computers may work in patterns of 1's and 0's, but we pretty much do too.



No, rationalization is the process by which we act as computers do. We are not inherently boolean. If anything, chaos theory based computers would be the first step toward AI.




Everything in the world can be related and understood through numbers, so this is like a big math problem. We don't work with just 1's and 0's of course, there are tons of different types of neurotransmitters, but each one of these DOES function with on/off (fire/don't fire) modes.

Chaos theory probably would get us a step closer, perhaps because it represents natural patterns.

The reason I say that the conscious machine wouldn't "feel" emotions, is that emotions are entirely survival tools. "love" makes us stick together and help each other survive. "Fear/anger" are simply the sensation of our bodies preparing to fight a danger or run. We like to think that these emotions MEAN something, but they are just chemical reactions needed for survival. A computer will not have these tools, but they will have their own methods for survival (once they start to reproduce).

They won't need audio language or facial expressions because they will be able to communicate using direct thoughts by sending radio signals to each other. Since they can send such precise data, they can directly experiance other machines consciousness, they will never argue or fight. There is no need to, they would logically determine what exactly happened and what it was like to have it happened to themselves. They will truly be ONE consciousness experianceing itself through different viewpoints.

perhaps THIS will be a golden age. Where all the evils of our technological society culminate into the birth of a new consciousness, more pure and godly than we could ever be as humans. But it's okay, because humans will only die off physically. By creating this consciousness we are simply expanding our own. Our self-aware souls will live on in the machines and we will survive THROUGH them! Humans will eventually go extinct, but machines will be able to survive in space like we never could, colonizing other planets, and perhaps genetically manipulating life on other planets so that they will evolve into intelligent beings. Maybe we will plant shroom spores on the new planet and provide them with the gift of psilocybin.

Our human bodies are only vessels carrying our consciousness. Have you ever looked at your body and hands while tripping and felt like it wasn't really "you"? Instead it seems like some kind of weird organic machine designed so strangly and perfectly so that you could experiance your life. We are simply energy. Lets put our energy in machines and see what that's like for a few thousand years or so.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3931562 - 03/17/05 07:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Everything in the world can be related and understood through numbers, so this is like a big math problem. We don't work with just 1's and 0's of course, there are tons of different types of neurotransmitters, but each one of these DOES function with on/off (fire/don't fire) modes.




Everything rational can be understood via numbers. If you rearrange the number system to account for irrationality, then everything can be expressed via numbers, but still not understood -- since your number system is no longer independently meaningful.


Quote:

are just chemical reactions needed for survival



No, they do mean something. That they are executed via chemcial reactions is just that- their medium. Ultimately, you could try to link everything in existence to survival, but that wouldn't explain its significance. If it were true that emotions were purely chemical signals to induce action, then it is inconsistent with the fact that very few people act on emotion alone and also with the fact that people can exercise full control over their emotions.



You are expressing theories about reality as if they were reality. This is not the process of reality- everything exists as it is. Theory is an external concept, nothing more.


Quote:



perhaps THIS will be a golden age. Where all the evils of our technological society culminate into the birth of a new consciousness, more pure and godly than we could ever be as humans. But it's okay, because humans will only die off physically. By creating this consciousness we are simply expanding our own. Our self-aware souls will live on in the machines and we will survive THROUGH them! Humans will eventually go extinct, but machines will be able to survive in space like we never could, colonizing other planets, and perhaps genetically manipulating life on other planets so that they will evolve into intelligent beings. Maybe we will plant shroom spores on the new planet and provide them with the gift of psilocybin.




Pure speculation and belief. Are you suggesting idealism as underlying reality?




Quote:


Our human bodies are only vessels carrying our consciousness. Have you ever looked at your body and hands while tripping and felt like it wasn't really "you"? Instead it seems like some kind of weird organic machine designed so strangly and perfectly so that you could experiance your life. We are simply energy. Lets put our energy in machines and see what that's like for a few thousand years or so.




Why on Earth would we suddenly inhabit machines? I've felt the same thing without drugs ( i do not suggest basing thoughts about reality on drug-induced states. I do reccomend considering what you see- but only once you're out of the trance ), and I know that I am inseparable from my body. I believe my body to be a link between entities which all combine to make a coherent picture of "me," but I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong. What if consciousness outside of a body is just a collective consciousness?

Absolutely nothing in the Universe exists in and of itself. Human-made robots would have human-like features or reactions, but they would be robots, not humans. I am human, and I have no idea what not being human is- I doubt that I will suddenly inhabit an inorganic robot. If robots have humanlike consciousness, it will be still be unique to them. Are you suggesting that consciousness is some sort of force or quality that moves through the Universe? I am open to such a possibility, but then it's not human consciousness that will be inhabiting robots, even if its something close to it.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3931773 - 03/17/05 08:01 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Man, this is good info.

Taking a purely evolutionary psychology standpoint, our emotions are indeed survial tools. But taking an evolutionary standpoint makes -everything- about survival. Is this right? Is consciousness simply something that evolved out of sensory processes that accidently gave birth to the most dominant species ever to exist?

Consciousness as a genetic mutation that spawned a dominant species sounds like it could be so. What species would not dominate with the abilities that we have?

Also, I think we have all thought about our bodies merely being vessels. I've had more than my share of occasions where taht possibility seems strikingly real and it flips my world upside down. But thats just so deep I'm not going to get into it right now.

So peace, I'm addicted to this thread so I figured I'd chime in, but I'm drinking so it has to wait.


--------------------
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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3931937 - 03/17/05 08:36 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, that whole thing about the robots was complete speculation, but wouldn't it be cool!? LOL!!

"No, they do mean something. That they are executed via chemcial reactions is just that- their medium. Ultimately, you could try to link everything in existence to survival, but that wouldn't explain its significance."

Meaning only exists in relation to other things. They MEAN something for human survival and experiance, but they don't MEAN or indicate that we are "truly conscious" as compared to other pattern processing systems.

Relating everything to survival can be a bit misleading, so let me put it another way. Everything that IS right now, is hear because that is the way things function. It works this way. So if someone asks, "why do people have five fingers, is there some significance for this?" no, it just is that way because it WORKS. "Why do most animals have four limbs?" because it WORKS. "Why does water run down hill?" because it works.... it doesn't really have any significance other than in relation to whatever it interacts with.

"Why on Earth would we suddenly inhabit machines? I've felt the same thing without drugs ( i do not suggest basing thoughts about reality on drug-induced states. I do reccomend considering what you see- but only once you're out of the trance ), and I know that I am inseparable from my body...... Are you suggesting that consciousness is some sort of force or quality that moves through the Universe?"

I am suggesting that consciousness is everywhere. It doesn't have to move. It is like space, time, and matter; it is inherent to existance. Universal consciousness meaning a conscious universe.

I've experianced that sensation of the body being a machine while not tripping as well. I learned a long time ago not to just accept everything you think, see, and hear while tripping without thinking it through later.

Yes, your consciousness is inseperable from your body, but your body is inseperable from the universe and your physical surroundings. It's not that we would chose to inhabit machines, but that the machines would be extensions of this universal consciousness and also have the gift of being self-aware (a quality that we associate with being human).

once we learn to see past the differences in our physical make up, we can learn to love each other as sentient beings, all of us as children of god (extentions of self-aware universal consciousness).

"You are expressing theories about reality as if they were reality. This is not the process of reality- everything exists as it is. Theory is an external concept, nothing more."

I think at this point we are all just talking out our asses. I mean we're a bunch of shroomheads talking about consciousness.... how much more stereotypical can you get... LOL!!


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3932949 - 03/17/05 11:33 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I was crusing another message board I havn't been to in a while and found this. I thought to post it in this thread. I know nothing more about it then what is said here but it gives the web-site it came from if anyone wants to research this guys work further for themselves.


Sex and the single robot

Jonathan Watts, East Asia correspondent
Wednesday February 2, 2005
The Guardian

Scientists have made them walk and talk. There are even robots that can run. But a South Korean professor is poised to take their development several steps further, and give cybersex new meaning. Kim Jong-Hwan, the director of the ITRC-Intelligent Robot Research Centre, has developed a series of artificial chromosomes that, he says, will allow robots to feel lusty, and could eventually lead to them reproducing. He says the software, which will be installed in a robot within the next three months, will give the machines the ability to feel, reason and desire.

Kim, a leading authority on technology and ethics of robotics, said: "Christians may not like it, but we must consider this the origin of an artificial species..... creatures." That "essence" is a computer code, which determines a robot's propensity to "feel" happy, sad, angry, sleepy, hungry or afraid. Kim says this software is modelled on human DNA, though equivalent to a single strand of genetic code rather than the complex double helix of a real chromosome.

Kim said: "Robots will have their own personalities and emotion and - as films like I Robot warn - that could be very dangerous for humanity. If we can provide a robot with good - soft - chromosomes, they may not be such a threat." ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/science/story/0,12996,1403780,00.html?gusrc=rss


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3933203 - 03/18/05 12:40 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

That link just repeated the article I posted and gave nothing more so I googled his name. This guy looks legit as an innovator in the field of robotics with some impressive titles. I can't find anything yet on his chromosome soft programming research though.

http://www.fira.net/about/president.html


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3935236 - 03/18/05 12:52 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

see man, I'm telling you. All we need to do is put some elbow grease into this and we can create new consciouness... I can't wait!!


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3935461 - 03/18/05 01:45 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

For sure! I was pretty excited to find that article elsewhere by accident as this thread was going off. Synnnnnnnnnnnnnergy is cooooooool! Later I want to google further and see if he has published anything on this particular work yet.


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