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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3923506 - 03/16/05 12:25 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting thread. I was glad to see lucid dreaming come up. I go conscious while in dreams pretty regularly. That alone tells me consciousness exists receiving data input NOT coming from the 5 physical senses. I'm even getting to where I can be conscious in dream states while awake in the morning living in two places at once. I know a few others who say they are experiencing that too.

It's not the same as what we call day dreaming because the alternate reality is being imposed upon and not imagined as I generate imagined day dreams when fully awake and they are very different.

Here's an example of the imposition. There are times in lucid dream states I am being given volumes of information in text from that is beyond profound and because I am lucid, I know that the self I know as Cindy doesn't know this stuff and never did. What sucks is that, as I come back into waking consciousness I can not hold the comprehension of the information. Why is that? All I can postulate is that my brain doesn't have the computing ability and then I have to wonder what mind it is I am in , in dream states that does and can comprehend the information easily.

Sometimes I catch gomp on IM when I am waking up and tell him I am having a hard time pulling out of dream states and he's like, "pull information man". I can go in and get it but I can't bring it through into anything comprehensible. It's like having two minds with different hard and soft drives that are incompatible for transferring data.

Some one suggested that dreaming was just a product of memory data input to cancel the whole idea out. I have been to places in my dreams that I have NEVER seen or imagined in this life time of mine so how can they come from my memory? They are highly detailed and crystal clear and some I revisit when lucid because they are so beautiful and partly because the aetheric sensors are better especially when it comes to the color frequencies they can perceive. I have seen colors and vividness in my dream states that I have not seen with my physical eyes.

Say for discussions sake all the I mentioned of lucid dreaming comes from subconscious soul memory of other existences because they sure don't come from this one. Now if we take Fredruggens suggestion that without sensory memory from this life there would be "nothing" whose to say that a human wouldn't start tapping into the subconscious soul memory? I know, no scientific proof it exists but there is none that says it doesn't either. Many have their own experiential proof so I am running with that.

Here's a question for Fred or anyone. Say a baby was born without the 5 physical senses working. Giving this a lot of thought, would that person not even experience a gravitational pull? Would they experience weightlessness or not? If you dropped them from a cliff would they know they were falling/moving in anyway? Does the touch sense include emotion or G force pulls? How does all that work?

This has been fun to think about and consider. Whats to say all life on earth isn't experimental forms of biological AI to a higher intelligence? In a warped way I can see it being so.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3923788 - 03/16/05 01:22 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

The mind is a little bitty self contained universe. Once input goes in the mind can turn it into infinitely complex ideas with the power of imagination. You have to understand though, that there is a real phsyical world with which we interact, but the world we actually live in is simply one of ideas. Ideas that have been formulated from all of our sensory data and are not real anywhere else but in our mind.

Nothing is real. It's an illuuUUUUuuusssion!


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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3924457 - 03/16/05 07:38 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Everything is real, but the reality is not what we perceive (not entirely anyway). I believe that is what the soul is, the difference between the sensory data of the REALity of the external world, and the internal processes that automate a lot of the senses.

Anyway, to respond to OldWoodSpecter:

If you are experiencing nothing, you are still making a comparison. This being that of nothing from something, it is still referring to your EXPERIENCES and so memories. That being a key distinction here.

If a baby was born completely senseless it would not have that reference, there would be nothing, but having never seen something who knows what the interpretation would be. Certainly that baby would have great difficulty being considered alive, let alone conscious, by many people.

Well that's my peanut-shell of antiquities! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3924639 - 03/16/05 10:04 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
I have this little "exercise" that I do sometimes. It starts with hypnosis.

First I start with finding a quiet surroundings for concetration.
Usually it is my bedroom just before I go to sleep. Then I enter selfhypnosis and shut of sounds around me zo zero, so I don't hear the fridge, or sounds from the distant cars etc. etc.
Then I release myself from tactile senses and pretty soon all of my body starts feeling like it is made of plastic and is not mine at all, next I don't feel it at all. It is a funny feeling, as if the life is suched out of my body starting from legs and withdraws into my brain
After a few more steps i "fall" into myself, into great big darkness of nothingness. It feels like everything dissapears, like I'm dieing. Like a black hole is forming right in the middle of my brain.
First few times I freaked, and panicked and "woke up" because it can feel frightening.

Anyway, in the end there is just me and nothing more. Thoughts are focused only on the darkness I am sinking in or else it doesn't work.

And guess what, I still exist in there.

I literally don't know where I am, or where my body is, it's just me somewhere in the middle of nothing.

Try that and you will see that you can exist only as a "brain in a jar" without any senses.





You know, i've never experienced what you are talking about here, yet somehow i know exactly what you are talking about.
Has lots of practice in meditation led you to achive this state of nothingness? Or is it more like something inherent?

I'm glad you talked about your body feeling like plastic, like its not yours. On my first shroom trip i realized as i was rubbing my hands that the feeling of them was really "new", like if i had never felt them that way before, like if they were not mine.

Since then i'm able to feel my hands that way whenever i want, like now, and it feels exactly like when i was tripping. And that's the state of mind i'm aiming for when i meditate, and i can sorta feel my whole body that way. but notquite though.

So perhaps the answer to my question is that you learned this while tripping..so did the shrooms have anything to do with this?  :stoned:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3924960 - 03/16/05 12:27 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

What about physical forms that receive data input and org anise themselves from it that don't have a brain like plants and water? A plant can rearrange itself to face the sun light so it is perceiving sensory input and utilizing it without a brain. Consciousness can exist without a brain here.

Water doesn't even have a nervous system let alone a brain and it organizes its crystal structure to written words taped to a bottle and even music. When you freeze it you can see the crystal patterns certain words and music repeatedly create. Words like Adolf Hitler don't even crystallize but the word love makes a beautiful snowflake pattern. Metal music doesn't make snowflake patterns it looks more like glass shards but symphony music makes a snowflake pattern.

Water doesn't even have eyes to see the words or ears to hear the music so whats up with that related to this topic? You can do the experiment yourself with distilled water, a bottle, freezer and microscope.

Wish I had the link handy to that web site, the pictures are awesome.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3924986 - 03/16/05 12:39 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

although a plant can have photo tropism, and a crystal can emerge from it's liquidity, these are not organized to also observe their own adjustment.

our adjustment system has such a degree of feedback (reflection) that, aside from movement and positions, we can even quantitatively assess our "wakeful consciousness" (reflectivity? brilliance?), our "dreaming consciousness" (imagination internalization) and our relative "dormancy" or ultra slow consciousness (dullness).

perhaps the degree of feedback which relates to self-aware consciousness can go much further too!

at what point might we have to assume godhood? (erroneously of course).


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925115 - 03/16/05 01:16 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Bless your heart for adding more food for thought to wonder upon related to what I added.

The purpose of my adding it was to comment that sensory perception does exists in forms without brains. A plant is a living thing that can die still but water??? Blows my mind.

That's what you got me thinking about. You mentioned how the plant or water doesn't have the cognizant ability to observe its own readjustments to external stimuli. Do we really know if that is true or not and how can we?

I was thinking about it staring at my pool. Water has a very reflective property and you were saying it has not the ability for conscious self reflection. I took amusement in the thought of water not being reflective of itself. It's natures mirror.

That doesn't prove that water is aware of its reorganizing itself though. Now I am thinking of what test could be set up that would allow for the water to say it is.

I am really intrigued to consider what you said about the ability of self awareness feedback to go much further then it already can in humans. Do you have any insight into that one? My first thought was that it would be like looking in a 3 way mirror when thinking about how the boss liked the aural presentation. Weird. What if consciousness had a 30 way mirror for self reflecting and what if it already does and we are using it and just don't know it?

Your question about erroneously assuming godhood I think will come when we figure out immortality and or create new life forms of our own design.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3925153 - 03/16/05 01:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

the tropism is a movement that has built in feedback without recourse to or reliance on anything else.

for us
our CNS is the feedback system - and it is very generalized

it is a constant rollercoaster ride of variables, constructs, memory recall and matching, measuring, and attitude - just to manage the simplest feedback tasks, no wonder we think we are special.
we are.
but mostly not the way we think.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925163 - 03/16/05 01:32 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Alrighty then.

Dreams - I do not believe (yet) that we are working off of some kind of soul consciousness, or global consciousness, or sharing of ideas. I think your completely unique dream lands and experiences are just transformations of things and places you have seen. Just because you have never been to a certain place or received some certain information doesn't mean that your brain can't conjure it up. We know countless amounts of symantics and ideas. We can create new things up on the fly with ease.

Senseless baby - Would he feel a gravitational pull? I seriously don't think so. Not only would they not feel wind on their skin, they wouldn't feel a sense of weight. Weight is just the pull on your body, but if you have NO sense of touch then you can't feel your body. It'd be like me grabbing someone's dead arm and playing with it. If they couldn't hear or see or smell or taste me, they wouldn't know I was playing with their arm. And not only would the baby not know it was falling, it would have much, much less of a clue than that. What is falling? What is up? What is down? What is here? WHat is there?

Even the guy with the dead arm would only feel gravity at the point in which is arm is putting weight on his shoulder. He would feel the weight of his arm but not his arm.

Plants and water - Plants do indeed have senses, and that is a good point. But senses are just the first step to consciousness.

I should probably redefine something I said due to a lot of good feedback.

Senses are necessary but not sufficient for consciousness.

With plants though, I wouldn't think there is any perception. It's not like the plant "feels" warmth. It doesn't "feel" the sun. It just knows that it is warm enough for the cells to grow. It knows that there is more light available from one area than another.

These plant senses are the kinds of senses that a computer has, I think. The kind of robotic reflex senses. Pure reactionary impulses driven by the environment.

And water? I don't believe that water thing for a second. I'd like to see some information on that. Water is just hydrogen and oxygen.

dr0mni - That was some good info right there. When I was born, obviously I wasn't thinking of myself as a conscious entity. But I had senses. If I put my hand in a fire I would have moved it. I can at least get some information from my environment. I was at the level of reactionary, robotic senses. However our minds can process alot more information than that from an early age. We are born with simple abilties of empathy as well. We can be distresed if our mothers are distressed. Our brains are born with SOME abilities other than just soaking up the environment like a sponge, but it's pretty useless still. It needs time and information to grow. But this is what you are saying, and I agree with you.

And I actually do believe you when you say that intelligence is largely based on patterns. Once we have lived long enough to start making generalizations, we can start processing information alot faster. Like babies. They need time to allow synaptic connections to take place. They need time to recognize things they see over and over again. And I still agree with you.

Where I DON'T agree with you is that the computer can start to recognize patterns too. A computer will -not- recognize or gain any sort of awareness in it's current state. You could have every bit of information in the world but it doesn't know what this information is! A computer can link apple -> fruit -> food -> edible, etc etc. But it doesn't know what an apple is. It can link apple -> a red fruit, what what is red? What is the letter 'r'. What is the word "what"? What is a "distinction". There is no MEANING to any of the semantics a computer understands. It doesn't even know what a 1 or 0 is, not does it understand quantity. The only thing the computer can do is store a voltage in a register and it is either high enough to be a '1' or low enough to be a '0'. And then it just has preprogrammed 'values' for these combinations which can be combined by preprogrammed methods to reorganize the high and low values.

There is nothing the computer could do right now that would give it any sort of awareness. Even if the computer was 3x faster than a human brain, it wouldn't gain awareness, ever.

And OldWood, I'm going to have to say I think the opposite. Consciousness "stands" on awareness. The senseless baby is not conscious. The senseless baby is dead by all defenitions but the literal.

Before I start
in?fer - verb - To conclude from evidence or premises.

Just in case.

Consciousness evolves by the level of awareness you have. A plant is "aware" that the sun is behind it, but at such a redicuously minute level. Can it infer anything about it's environment? How many suns are there, plant? It doesn't know. And I doubt any animal does. But at least the animal can infer something about it's environment. Animals can't infer MUCH, but they can.

And humans? We have such rediculous abilties to process our information that comes from our awareness it's hilarious. We are incredibly aware. We can form so many patterns and infer SO much from our environment that it's beyond that of any animal or plant. Our brains are more able than any of species to organize the sensory input we see and make distinctions between it. It's -all- about how well we can organize our sensory input.

The sun is up, what does that mean? Nothing to the plant. All it means is that the cells will now photosynthesize. The animal? I'm not sure. It means it's time to go looking for food? Does it mean it's not dark? Do animals understand dark? Perhaps.

But we can infer so much because, like g0mni said, we can form so many patterns. We can process our awareness so much that we become conscious.

Senses -> awareness processing -> consciousness

A computer can have "senses" like a video camera and a microphone, but it doesn't process those inputs in any meaningful way.

I don't think the mystery lies at either Senses, or consciousness. I think we have those both solved. The mystery lies in the middle, in the processing. In finding out the rediculous complexity that is our brain and it's ability to process what we sense.

Edit : And of course, as Morrowind said below this, this is all speculation. I don't KNOW what I said is true obviously, but I believe it.


--------------------
Ishmael
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Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


Edited by freddurgan (03/16/05 01:37 PM)


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925167 - 03/16/05 01:32 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

this thread is interesting, i was trying to say something very similar here a year or two ago. Since then I've learned more on the subject.

very fitting that the brain would decide consciousness is vastly important and only possible with a brain, don't you think? As it stands, you know you are conscious, though you're not 100% sure what that really means. Certainly your brain is involved in your version of consciousness, but is consciousness powered by electric signals the only kind of relevant consciousness?

You ( i use this word generally ) have no definitive say on anything other than your own subjective view. This creates a schroedinger-like effect, making anything definitive on consciousness impossible because it requires consciousness to process, which will in turn reinterpret everything.

Anyway, this is not the realm of science, unless science suddenly becomes subjectively driven ( at which point it will cease to exist).

To further my point, do I know you are conscious? Ultimately No. I can guess it and believe it, but know it? If we are to assume *nothing*, then we cannot assume consciousness, ever.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925181 - 03/16/05 01:37 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

The complexity and abilities of the biological human form is amazing indeed! I will drink to that! :cheers:

It gets taken for granted and we complain about what it can't do but when you stop to think about what it can do and does and that it has evolved from out of star dust I am quite humbled in awe.  :japsmile: :whoa:


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3925201 - 03/16/05 01:43 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

why?
It's just stardust in action if you look at it that way. Nothing is special about humanity.


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: vampirism]
    #3925270 - 03/16/05 02:00 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

I dunno...........the fact that we can even think we are amazing organizational structures of of active star dust is amazing to me. Star dust, elements and chemicals can contemplate itself? That's not amazing to you?

Fredruggen,

If the water crystallization experiments were of interest to you, I'll take a few to dig up the link. Some one posted it here a few months back and I didn't save it, I should have.

Thanks for the comments on the senseless baby gravity stuff.

regarding dream states consciousness. You are saying then that we can formulate new ideas while in dream consciousness based on what is stored in our memory banks. I can't disagree with a simple solution like that and I can still hold other theories I have. Many inventors say they get their invention ideas from dreams and I have heard of mathematicians solving complex problems they couldn't work through while awake in dreams.

I would like to know what makes dream state consciousness extra- ordinary. Is it simple due to the state of relaxation we are in?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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AI [Re: freddurgan]
    #3925281 - 03/16/05 02:04 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

the computer can definitely be set up to recognize pattern
in vision systems and auditory and gyroscopical and navigational applications.

I think they are not generalized enough yet in the matter of events and error handling, to be self aware yet, but they will be, they will manage even more complex feedback - and watch tehmselves in the process, and they may even be able to get addicted to the rollercoaster rythm of life as well.

why not?


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: exclusive58]
    #3925779 - 03/16/05 04:02 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

No I have never tripped on anything , at least not yet..

And it's not meditation either..

In fact it's funny, first time it happened by accident almost..

I was trying to induce selfhypnosis, by using recommended steps,
and I was thinking about falling deeper and deeper with numbers and all, and when I got to zero it felt like i was dropped out of some airplane into a deep dark black watter, everything dissapeared and I got freaked out, my heart started pumping and I escaped it and went back in shock and fear. I was fully aware of everything, that is why it scared me like that.
Later on i went back to that place in my mind and try to make some sense of it and release my self of that first fear i experienced.
So the second time it allso felt strange and scairy, but I was able to control my self and just let go of my fears.
After shutting down all my fears and thoughts I discovered that this dark place leads to something even deeper and darker, so I went there too.

That even deeper place is what I would call nothingness..

You know that noise your optical nevers make when you close your eyes, so you see all kinds of stains, grains, lines etc?
Well in that dark place even that goes away, so there is litteraly darkness.
I do not register sounds in my mind, and as I said, I loose all sense of my body, like someone cut every nerve connecting my brain with the rest of the body with a knife. There just is big black nothing.
And the thoughts are concentrated on the blackness in front of me, so they are still, and I don't think about anything exept the breat big nothing.

It can be very pleasant or it can be a nightmare depending on how do you approach it.


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: AI [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3925827 - 03/16/05 04:12 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the computer can definitely be set up to recognize pattern
in vision systems and auditory and gyroscopical and navigational applications.

I think they are not generalized enough yet in the matter of events and error handling, to be self aware yet, but they will be, they will manage even more complex feedback - and watch tehmselves in the process, and they may even be able to get addicted to the rollercoaster rythm of life as well.

why not?




Once the processing of that visual information gets to a sufficient level, then yeah I'm sure an AI will exist. But who knows how our brains process information? Nobody :wink: Well kind of, but, baby steps.


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3925890 - 03/16/05 04:35 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
The mind is a little bitty self contained universe. Once input goes in the mind can turn it into infinitely complex ideas with the power of imagination. You have to understand though, that there is a real phsyical world with which we interact, but the world we actually live in is simply one of ideas. Ideas that have been formulated from all of our sensory data and are not real anywhere else but in our mind.

Nothing is real. It's an illuuUUUUuuusssion!




I like this idea. Could it possilby help solve the Idealism/Materialism "conflict?" Materialism explains the outside world, while Idealism explains the inside world. Or is there more to it?


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: Darcho]
    #3926283 - 03/16/05 05:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Is there even a connection? Define materialism. I always have thought of materialism as "buy buy buy" but that sounds more like consumerism. I probably have it defined somewhere in my head but under some other word.


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3926362 - 03/16/05 05:58 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Materialism in regards to the mind-body distinction: Mind and body are dependent on matter.

A opposed to Idealism: Mind and body are dependent upon ideas.

I think that the materialism you may be thinking of is the obsession of material possessions, or something along those lines.


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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3927370 - 03/16/05 09:14 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

well the thing is that using such perception you're nothing but a product of stardust, so of course stardust can think and contemplate itself. Your human ego makes you hold the assembled and evolutionarily selected dust as superior.

Quote:

Star dust, elements and chemicals can contemplate itself? That's not amazing to you?



Not one bit. The materialistic age has created this sense of wonder in most modern thinkers. I am chemicals and elements- they are not separate from me in the least. That someone has gone so far as to classify them and give them their own connotation and imply a different denotation does not change anything.


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