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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4523914 - 08/11/05 11:17 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

conciousness can be influenced by the formation of matter but no one has presented a single peice of evidence that matter has anything to do with creating concioiusness.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4523935 - 08/11/05 11:24 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

OK :smile:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4523936 - 08/11/05 11:25 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a third way through, taking a break and Red is correct in that "magical appearances" are not being discussed or explored in the article. It covers a very interesting section on how it arranges universal matter on page 5. I just finished that page.

The bullet section on that page was awesome. Thats how it works for me.

I'm not sure if Ravus read past the first few paragraghs.

On page 3 it says that Computer Scientist James Culbertson, a pioneer of research on robots, speculates the same and agrees with the direction this research is going.

I think it may be important to consider that artificial intelligence is not necessarily artificial consciousness.

How can robotics science invent conscious AI when Science doesn't know what creates consciousness yet. We do know how to create intelligence and can artificially, through the accumulation and storage of data and mathematics principles. See the difference? If we create AI, we are acting as it's quantum consciousness, in a way.

back to it.........


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: RedNucleus]
    #4523977 - 08/11/05 11:41 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

no evidence that consciousness is not "created by" neurons?

if you hit someone in the neurons hard enough (blasting apart the configuration), they lose consciousness and die. if you don't kill them, you can cause brain damage, which yields noticable differences in consciousness and behavior.

in my opinion science's failure to understand consciousness derives from screwy philosophical assumptions held for thousands of years- 1) the idea that matter and consciousness are separate. this problematic idea already has a simple solution: matter and consciousness are different ways of looking at the same thing. yet people have stuck with this idea, perhaps because of the notion of christian soul is so ingrained in our culture.

2) the idea that the mind is symbolic (like a computer).
i looked at that nature link and found some article about hypothesizing how representations form in the eye! what bullshit. people have been hypothesizing about this for decades and will continue to do this fruitlessly. this concept of the symbolic brain has been thoroughly debunked by people like walter freedman, hubert dreyfus, humberto maturana, terry winograd, and in philosophy (decades ago) by martin heidegger.

yet this bogus assumption continues to be the foundation for so much neurobiological research. and this unfounded notion is still implicitly taught in every intro psych/intro to cognitive psych/intro to biopsych book i've ever looked at.

rant rant rant

scientists are so dumb sometimes.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4524022 - 08/11/05 11:53 PM (16 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

no evidence that consciousness is not "created by" neurons?

if you hit someone in the neurons hard enough (blasting apart the configuration), they lose consciousness and die. if you don't kill them, you can cause brain damage, which yields noticable differences in consciousness and behavior.





what point are you trying to make? this would still hold true according to any of the major theories of conciousness.?smashing a radio also causes the program to be lost. does this mean the weather man only exists inside the radio?


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4524053 - 08/12/05 12:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

no, but we have evidence that the radio program is separate from the radio. the best theory to describe the radio says, there is a radio, and a radio program.

we have no evidence that consciousness is separate from the brain however.

so occam's razor would cut away that theory. it's simpler to say consciousness is the brain.

IOW you could be believe that consciousness is separate from the brain if you like, but it would not be a scientific belief, since science takes the simplest explanation for something wherever it can.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4524059 - 08/12/05 12:00 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

You didn't read it either did you?

Why you loose consciousness when you smash a neuron can be explained with the information on page 7;

Microtubules inside the neurons contain quasi crystalline water molecules lend themselves to quantum effects.

If you smash the neuron, your ability to experience quantum effects of "consciousness" get smashed along with it.

Please read the article if you are going to post in this thread I ask.

If you care not to read it and want to discuss what you know about consciousness interfacing with matter, then maybe start your own thread.

This post is about the article and is is meant to discuss what is being explored in the article.

Perhaps copy and paste from it what you wish to comment on so we know if you read it or not. Points taken from it can be debated. Thats fine. Lets keep it to the research from the article.

Points not taken from it and discussed deserve their own post. They will have nothing to do with the article being presented and the information in it. The article is an exploratory one.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4524108 - 08/12/05 12:11 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

i should probably re-read the article since its been months since the last time i read it but first i want to respond to this

Quote:

no, but we have evidence that the radio program is separate from the radio. the best theory to describe the radio says, there is a radio, and a radio program.

we have no evidence that consciousness is separate from the brain however.

so occam's razor would cut away that theory. it's simpler to say consciousness is the brain.

IOW you could be believe that consciousness is separate from the brain if you like, but it would not be a scientific belief, since science takes the simplest explanation for something wherever it can.




first of all as i said before occam's razor depends on your point of view. if you believe conciousness is the most fundmental aspect of existance than it would be a violation of occam's razor to propose anything physical as creating it. secondly there is a mountain of evidence that conciousness is more fundamental than the brain. im talking about thousands of experiences by people from all parts of the world all saying the same thing, not to mention that the theory explains a lot of phenomena which are unexplainable by other means.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4524159 - 08/12/05 12:20 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Microtubules inside the neurons contain quasi crystalline water molecules lend themselves to quantum effects"

it's simpler to say that the brain is what it is, without quantum effects. i read the article but still do not understand why quantum effects are needed to explain anything.

"if you believe conciousness is the most fundmental aspect of existance than it would be a violation of occam's razor to propose anything physical as creating it."

is it simpler to say that consciousness creates what's physical then? or is it simpler to say that consciousness and what's physical are two sides of one coin so-to-speak?

"im talking about thousands of experiences by people from all parts of the world all saying the same thing"

the number of people who agree on something has nothing to do with how true it is. people thought the earth was flat a long time.

"not to mention that the theory explains a lot of phenomena which are unexplainable by other means."

like what? i was not convinced that anything explained consciousness when i read the article. what convinced you, what part of the article are you referring to?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4524173 - 08/12/05 12:21 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

to people who think i'm violating occam's razor you're forgetting to consider the assumptions you're making. you're starting with a certain idea about conciousness and than assuming that is the base from which everyone should work their reasoning from. but why? read the view of conciousness presented here: http://www.hinduism.co.za/consciou.htm. this is the understanding of conciousness which makes sense according to my experience so why should i start my reasoning from some other arbitrary position? for me to suggest concioussness was created by the brain would be a violation of occam's razor .


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4524180 - 08/12/05 12:22 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I have to back track now, but the article also covered why Occam's razor is not applied to quantum mechanics.

deviate, maybe hold off on replying to ravus and re read it first. I don't think he did and if you reread it, you'll be able to address the arguments he brought up already from the article. He may be reading it now. He hasn't posted in a while.

When I am done, I'll back track to find what they said about having to approach quantum mechanics differently from physics. Pretty much it had to do with the laws being different.

I'm learning so much from this I didn't know before. I am overwhelmed at the moment. Thats why I keep taking breaks. :lol:


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4524190 - 08/12/05 12:24 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I like how you're constantly accusing every dissenting voice of not reading the article, but perhaps you're simply trying to encourage them to quote directly from it.

Quote:

Any paradigm that tries to manufacture consciousness out of something else is doomed to failure. Things don't just happen. Ex nihilo nihil fit. Consciousness doesn't come simply from the act of putting neurons together.




As I've said before, the fatal assumption of this article is the unsupported claim that consciousness is somehow a separate force from everything else and therefore cannot be explained without weird theories stating consciousness is a type of conductivity that is only activated in certain areas. But there is no evidence for this claim, and this article is therefore intended for those who've already taken that leap of faith.

Nothing comes from nothing indeed, but neurons and molecules are not "nothing". It's like saying the software from a computer must have some sort of quantum availability all over the universe because simply wiring wires together will never generate a program like we're observing now with Firefox (if you know what a good browser is :wink:).

Consciousness doesn't come from nothing anymore than the software of a computer comes from nothing. Consciousness is just extremely advanced software, along with human perception and other factors that have been deemed necessary to our survival by natural selection. Consciousness is just a result of human neural wiring, and not a universal force. That is a jump without any evidence to pad the fall when people realize its just trying to justify our consciousness and free will as something greater than they are.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4524205 - 08/12/05 12:26 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"is it simpler to say that consciousness creates what's physical then? or is it simpler to say that consciousness and what's physical are two sides of one coin so-to-speak?"

its probably simpler to say they are two sides of the same coin although i believe our conciousness plays a role in creating what we consider physical.


"the number of people who agree on something has nothing to do with how true it is. people thought the earth was flat a long time.'

but the fact they have report similar experiences from which they independentally drew the same conclusion suggests they are on to something.



"like what? i was not convinced that anything explained consciousness when i read the article. what convinced you, what part of the article are you referring to? "

like spiritual experiences, placebo effect


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Ravus]
    #4524234 - 08/12/05 12:32 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

The article never said it comes from nothing. The quantum field is something. Science can observe it. This whhy there is no leap of faith. If the quantum field was not observable, it would be a leap of faith then.

Ravus, please, this post is about the information given in the article. Again, it is clear you havn't read it in full.

If you want to be critical of something it is exploring, please copy and paste the section you are critising.

So far your replies read like you are criticing the work of others and not the specific work being presented in this article.

Question? What did you learn about dendritic-dendritic processing and axonal firings from the article and under what section was it from?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4524241 - 08/12/05 12:33 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"Consciousness doesn't come from nothing anymore than the software of a computer comes from nothing. Consciousness is just extremely advanced software, along with human perception and other factors that have been deemed necessary to our survival by natural selection. Consciousness is just a result of human neural wiring, and not a universal force. That is a jump without any evidence to pad the fall when people realize its just trying to justify our consciousness and free will as something greater than they are.
"

and you know this how? those are bold claims backed by zero evidence.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4524247 - 08/12/05 12:34 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

This reply is to crunchytoast. It went to deviate. I must have clicked wrong.

"if you hit someone in the neurons hard enough (blasting apart the configuration), they lose consciousness and die."

"matter and consciousness are different ways of looking at the same thing"

So show me where the brain matter disappears when one loses consciousness.


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Namaste


Edited by RedNukleus (08/12/05 12:35 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4524264 - 08/12/05 12:36 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think you understood my post properly. They're stating that the modern non-quantum theory of consciousness relies on consciousness coming from nothing- notice the section of the article I quoted. I realize in their interpretation of it they give you an explanation, but I was arguing from the non-quantum explanation of it, that to state the non-quantum version of it is "coming from nothing" is similar to stating that computer software comes from nothing.

The quantum field is scientific and has evidence, there's no doubt about that, but the theory that consciousness is contained in this quantum field is what we're discussing, and that is what is lacking evidence.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4524273 - 08/12/05 12:37 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

"you're starting with a certain idea about conciousness and than assuming that is the base from which everyone should work their reasoning from."

i think anyone can work whatever reasoning they want. whether that reasoning is scientific or not is another question. i dont believe that science is the only valid experience a person can have. but yes, certain things are scientific and certain things aren't, which is okay, IMO.

i don't understand how you conclude from your link that quantum mechanisms connecting the brain, plus the brain connecting in classical physics, is a simpler explanation for consciousness, than the brain connecting in classical physics alone.

interesting link btw.


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Deviate]
    #4524277 - 08/12/05 12:38 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

deviate,

No where in the article do they even refer to consciousness being like computer software. He didn't read it and is making posts arguing against other stuff he's read elsewhere as if it came from this article.

I asked him to copy and paste what he is arguing against from here on.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Research into Consciousness Interfacing with matter [Re: Ravus]
    #4524284 - 08/12/05 12:39 AM (16 years, 2 months ago)

ravus, thats only true if you assume concioussness to be identical to computer software. its circular logic. would our universe with no conciousness even exist? where would it exist?


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