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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!)
    #3920351 - 03/15/05 11:36 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Following on from the post on AI by OldWoodSpecter.

I was wondering what the opinions would be of the statement:

"Consciousness is simply the brain's way of interpreting data given it by the senses"

(take as a subtext that consciousness arises due to the complexity of the data being processed!)

Any thoughts anyone? I'd like to hear another similar encapsulation for the other side of the argument!

That's my tank of horse flesh! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3920423 - 03/15/05 11:59 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

consciousness - a series of chemical reactions instigated by the senses that render meaning in the beholder

(perchance)


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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: CJay]
    #3920457 - 03/15/05 12:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Can I point out that the beholder must be conscious to behold the meaning, and also that that's just a rephrasing of my original question really.


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3920464 - 03/15/05 12:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i agree with all the above
so far


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3920503 - 03/15/05 12:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

what kind of data are dreams?

they're not input from the senses.

is expanded consciousness a more advanced interpretive process for the same data?


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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: a_h_w]
    #3920523 - 03/15/05 12:22 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Ah you have exposed a flaw in my original statement.

I shall make an addendum:

"Consciousness is simply the brain's way of interpreting data given it by the senses or by the memory"

However the point about dreams can be destroyed with one sentence. Ready? HERE GOES:

We are not conscious while asleep!

Funny really isn't it?

That's my pish-posh of pot-noodle-mania! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3920533 - 03/15/05 12:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PsilocinSam said:
Can I point out that the beholder must be conscious to behold the meaning, and also that that's just a rephrasing of my original question really.




Sorry - those were just my thoughts. You did ask for peoples thoughts.

It's not really just a rephrasing though, it builds on what you originally said, since you gave no hint of the process.

But anyway....yes the beholder must be conscious, or maybe not....is a robot of current technological standards that interprets data given to it by 'senses' conscious?

If it holds some sort of consciousness then the consciousness is inexorably linked to the 'senses' themselves, as with a human. And with each of these the consciousness is limited by the nature of the senses and the data they can send.

Consciousness must therefore be a sum of senses + data + method of transference + beholder.

The beholder is only conscious through the senses. Therefore the senses are effectively the beholders consciousness.

At least on an everyday level of consciousness - because what we have not touched on are all the extras that we experience as human consciousness. Equally all just chemical reactions being interpreted - but from which ense are the reactions instigated? The dreams we have when asleeep and the worlds that await us there, the dreams we have when awake and the imagination that pervades us etc


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: a_h_w]
    #3920543 - 03/15/05 12:28 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

edit: meant to addres PsilocinSam

My reply above must have been written in tandem with the back and forth about dreams - when I posted and came to the thread I saw this already being tackled.

Quote:

We are not conscious while asleep!




Then how do we have experience while asleep? How can there be a beholder?

How is it that in dreams we can be aware, ie conscious?


Edited by CJay (03/15/05 12:29 PM)


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3920554 - 03/15/05 12:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

We are not conscious while asleep!


Actually, some people are, including me about 5 or 6 times in my life(lucid dream).

But besides that, i think that you actually ARE conscious while asleep, just at a very minimal degree. Its consciousness without the consciousness of consciousness.


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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: CJay]
    #3920556 - 03/15/05 12:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

you can be conscious and dreaming. that is called lucid dreaming and is one of the most incredible experiences you can have in life. it is so real that you need to use tricks to realize you're dreaming. for instance trying to turn off the lights and realizing the switch doesn't work.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: exclusive58]
    #3920716 - 03/15/05 01:20 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Clarification is needed here.

Consciousness is simply being aware of your senses. Are animals conscious? Yes. They are aware of themselves (that they exist..there are many levels of self-consciousness, which is where the confusion comes in) because they are aware of their environment. They have a context in which to compare their own existence with and infer things about the environment.

Computers, until they have senses, will never be conscious. You have to be able to sense your environment and MAKE something of the information. Even the lowliest creature can notice and react to it's environment.

Perhaps then you could say that very very weak AI already exists, one of a very low animal, like a roach or something. Simple reactions to environmental stimuli.

But, to understand how we as humans interpret our environments to such an INCREDIBLE degree, will require more knowledge of Neuroscience. We are the way we are because of our brains. The brain is the key to linking the senses and the processing together to create all levels of consciousness.


And no you are not conscious while you are asleep. You are alive, but not conscious. If you become Lucid, then yes. You are aware of your perception, and therefore are consciouss.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3921189 - 03/15/05 03:35 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Consciousness is not interpretation of data, that is perception.
Computers can recognize shapes too, yet they do not have consciousness
Sophisticated programs can do wonders, even recognize people faces, decode 2D image renderings into 3d space etc. etc.
Yet there is nobody there to experience that.

Consciosuness has nothing to do with senses, or perception, or even thoughts.

you can clear your mind of thoughts, close your eyes, go into a silent room and float in zero gravity naked.
You don't see, you don't think, you cant hear, you can't feel,
yet you are conscious

It is hard to define what it actually is.

It is a point of view from wich life takes place, consciousness is separate from thoughts, memory, feelings, actions and perception.
It is that piece of psyche that makes it all worth existing in the first place. What is the use for memory and thought if nobody can be aware of it?

Where it comes from? Time will tell. That is probably 22'nd century science.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3921191 - 03/15/05 03:35 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

My $0.02:

Consciousness or Intelligence is simply the recognition of patterns and the ability to react to those patterns in a dynamic way.

Computers are already designed to take in, interpret, change, and make patterns in a dynamic way. The problem is that we don't give them the capabilities to react in a way that we think would make it "alive"

Living organisms had to react to stimuli in a way that ensured their survival. Computers don't have to do that.

Perhaps there already is a digital consciousness that we are not aware of. Is it possible that some of these internet viruses are NOT being created by humans? Doesn't the internet react to itself in a hugely dynamic way according to the data that we put into it? If you've ever seen Ghost in the Shell then I'm pretty much talking about the same idea.

Human consciousness arose out of aparent nothingness because the structure (brain) was there which supported the recognition and interpretation of patterns. I believe that if we give a supercomputer a physical body and give it the ability to react with it's environment then it will eventually behave as a conscious entity.

And whether we like it or not, it WILL be conscious, just as we are. We are only machines made of organic compounds. There is really nothing special about us.


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: dr0mni]
    #3921504 - 03/15/05 05:01 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

There is no way in hell that there is some kind of digital consciousness. Nothing digital knows it is alive.

And OldWood, what about this?

What if you were never born with senses? You were born numb, blind, deaf, no smell, and tasteless. How would you have any concept of anything? You couldn't be consciouss because you wouldn't have anything at all to be conscious of.

Our brains interpret alot of information, but the only way our brain gets that information is from the senses. The senses are not sepsrate from consciousness.

Now being at a level of conscioussness of a HUMAN, that is somewhat differnet because we have senses just like animals and flies and fish, but we are also incredibly intelligent. What is the distinction between conscious and human conscious? Hmm...

Dunno :wink: I would have to say it would be the low level neuronal basis that allows us to do what we do.


--------------------
Ishmael
http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3921617 - 03/15/05 05:30 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

You would be conscious of dark and of nothingness, but it wouldn't feel like dark because you don't know of anything else.
But there would still be you who experiences no sensory data and pure black.

In fact, only then would you know what you really are

I think our ideas o consciousness are a bit different and that is where our views begin to differentiate..

I think for you the word consciousness comes like this:
"conscious OF"

but for me it comes like this:
"conscious"


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3921680 - 03/15/05 05:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I have this little "exercise" that I do sometimes. It starts with hypnosis.

First I start with finding a quiet surroundings for concetration.
Usually it is my bedroom just before I go to sleep. Then I enter selfhypnosis and shut of sounds around me zo zero, so I don't hear the fridge, or sounds from the distant cars etc. etc.
Then I release myself from tactile senses and pretty soon all of my body starts feeling like it is made of plastic and is not mine at all, next I don't feel it at all. It is a funny feeling, as if the life is suched out of my body starting from legs and withdraws into my brain
After a few more steps i "fall" into myself, into great big darkness of nothingness. It feels like everything dissapears, like I'm dieing. Like a black hole is forming right in the middle of my brain.
First few times I freaked, and panicked and "woke up" because it can feel frightening.

Anyway, in the end there is just me and nothing more. Thoughts are focused only on the darkness I am sinking in or else it doesn't work.

And guess what, I still exist in there.

I literally don't know where I am, or where my body is, it's just me somewhere in the middle of nothing.

Try that and you will see that you can exist only as a "brain in a jar" without any senses.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinefreddurgan
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3922040 - 03/15/05 07:19 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well see that approach doesn't fit into what I am saying. You are just "turning off" your senses. I'm talking about never having had senses before. You've had senses all your life, and you've been able to experience your environment and other people, and feel things for years and years.

If you NEVER had senses, then how would you even know you exist? What would possibly clue you in? You wouldn't even have any clue that "You" or "I" exist. Imagine how clueless a baby is. Now just assume that he never developed senses while in the womb. He's essentially dead. Not aware of or conscious of anything.

"But there would still be you who experiences no sensory data and pure black."

That doesn't make sense. You can't experience black without having experienced color. You can't understand "pure" without understanding something like tainted, or mixed. None of these concepts could arise! You would have -nothing- at all to base your existence off of. Nothing.

In fact, I'd like to hear one thing that you could possibly understand if you were created without senses. Give me one concept that you could grasp, regardless of how simple it is.

And I don't actually think there is any difference between your "conscious" and my "conscious OF". Even if you do your sensory loss idea, you still have a semblance of yourself that you formed earlier, and you are "conscious OF" that idea you've created of yourself.


--------------------
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http://www.ishmael.org

Ron Paul 2008!
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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3922264 - 03/15/05 08:18 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Freddurgan>> The only difference between animal consciousness and human consciouness is that we have the ability to recognize far more complex patterns than an animal. That's all intelligence is! We can recognize patterns so well that we can manipulate them in order to enhance our survival. Some animals can sense patterns of magnetism, like certain single celled organisms that have particles of magnetic minerals inside of them. We can't sense these patterns because we do not have the structures to percieve them, but at the same time, magnetism affects us in ways that we don't notice.

now let me ask you something. When you were born, with all your senses and everything, were you immediately self-aware? No. Although you had the capabilities to recieve and sense data from the world around you, it wasn't until you had ENOUGH data to organize into a paradigm of patterns that you recognized yourSELF as a conscious entity. (okay, so it was kinda a rhetorical question...)

So just because a computer is digital and "doesn't know it's alive" doesn't mean that it couldn't eventually develop a consciousness from all of the data on the internet. It may not be a consciousness like anything we know, but I believe that it COULD happen.

I eagerly await the day that I can sit down and philosophize about consciousness with a computer!


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3922387 - 03/15/05 08:46 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Mind that in such a state, I am not "thinking" about the darkness and comparing it to the light, those thoughts come later on when I return.

You can't say: you remember sensual stimuli, so of course you know that you are alive, because I'm not thinking about what I experience at that moment, I just experience it.
experience is the key word in the process of consciousness

I tell you, in those moments you forget who you are and where you came from in a second and forget that you have a body.

Now don't take me wrong, I'm not sitting there thinking OMG, who the hell am I??, no, when I say forget, I mean your conscious mind has a "memory dump" and for a few seconds you have no idea of anything exept that you just are.

IF you empty your mind for a second, it doesn't matter if you have all the knowledge of the world in your memory, or been to the moon or mars, non of it existes any more because your consciousness has been cleaned out of information in general (thoughts, memory, sensory etc.)

What you said does apply in the process of "diving in" because in that time your thoughts are still comparing and thinking, but once you cross the boarder it doesn't matter any more.

I have a feeling that If I was born without any stimuli I would feel the same way, like a conscious coma, or like floating in zero gravity blackness.

I grant you that it would be very difficult to develop an actual ego as we all "normal" folks have, probably impossible, but consciousness
would be there, it would just be empty, in STBY mode, waiting to be ignited with thought.

All I am saying is if there is split second in wich you can not feel anything or think anything, and you actually experience that, it means that consciousness is separate from all that.

consciousness is the medium of experience

Without any material to experience, consciousness is empty, it's like staring at a blank screen, it's not actual death because the lack of everything is still experienced by someone, everything(nothing) is still hapening from a certain point of view, that point of view is your consciousness.

To use some analogy of what I mean:

Consciousness is a CCD sensors, and thoughts, memories, emotions, sensations and senses are photons that hit it.

As long as the CCD is powered and ready, you are a conscious being,
if you fall out of consciousness or have a mental death (if such a thing is possible) the CCD looses power and no matter what hits it
it will not make electricity.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Following AI: Consciousness as an interpretive process for data! (aren't I fancy!) [Re: freddurgan]
    #3922480 - 03/15/05 09:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

p.s. Just in case you misunderstand me, here is a little glossary the way I use those words:

consciousness: point of view from which anything is experienced, is static, can not be higher or lower, it just is

awareness: the level of knowledge about something, it can be higher and lower, more information=higher awareness.

to connect these two...

awareness "stands" on consciousness, even babies have consciousness because when you go back (as far as you can) and remember the events from childhood, you still know they took place from your own conscious point of view. with age, awareness grows like a plant planted in consciousness (dirt, earth).
Awareness is the "number" wich describes how much of consciousness is filled with something.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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