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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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is reality itself based on points of view?
    #26178965 -

or some fixed underlying structure?

or both?

could the points of view themselves actually be the fabric of reality, not just ideas/representations about what is real?

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Re: is reality itself based on points of view? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26179114 -

My stance:

Conceptually:  Consciousness must precede existence. Things cannot be qualified as “existing” unless done so by an agent who first possesses the conscious awareness of SELF and OTHER which is required to do so. And likewise, since concepts are not their own contextual reference, but require the reference point of a material agent in order to have any value or relevancy, because they are not actual, the converse can always likewise be true. That is, in this case, existence must precede consciousness, because unless there is something which is conscious–because the question “What is conscious?” must be answered if we are going to make a claim to consciousness–then we cannot claim consciousness as real.

Metaphysically:  Consciousness and existence are a singularity of reality. They are the exact same thing because they proceed from the same source: man’s SELF, the standard of truth and morality and the reference for all meaning. “Man exists” is the exact same thing as saying “man is conscious”.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: is reality itself based on points of view? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26179885 -

Both newtonian/objective and quantum/subjective. Both are ever evolving and changing.

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Re: is reality itself based on points of view? [Re: humanevolution]
    #26179953 -

I think my pov is the “fabric of reality”.  “The primary datum” to use a phrase from somebody I don’t remember.  The concept of reality is something the primary datum does.  It’s like this immediate local experience of being.  And I always want to ask what it’s made of or where it comes from.  Well The Self is a popular response to this but I can’t help but think The Self is yet another concept.  At this point it’s easy to get into eastern philosophy and zen stuff and to have the sort of breakthroughs that meditation masterminds claim to have because I think that’s where one has to go looking for the real existential answers.  In the sense that “the answers” are within direct experience.  Conceptually stuff like Jungian analytics are great amongst others.

Ah.  Of course it was McKenna.


Edited by Yellow Pants (09/10/19 04:53 PM)

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Re: is reality itself based on points of view? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26185203 -

"Reality is made of LANGUAGE!"

McKenna had the right idea IMHO, but he was a tad too entrenched in a few erroneous parts of his paradigm (Time Wave BS, Novelty Theory, etc.) to get the whole picture. The fact that the guy openly says there's a conspiracy of consensus against the direct immediate felt presence of experience hurtles him to the front of the line for this stuff.

:tmckenna:

He's still my top psych guy, and where I derived my username from.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: is reality itself based on points of view? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26185279 -

every point of view adds to the concretization of a person's reality through time.

without time and change there is no reality, and over time, a point of view changes.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: is reality itself based on points of view? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26188010 -

it is the job of consciousness to manipulate information.

lets say we alter our consciousness with a psychedelic,

changing our point of view,

is what coalesces a condition of the consciousnesses interacting relative to physical reality?

the point of view may still be differentiated, but it also may become one with something else,

and under this influence, our intentions manifest in our interactions relative to physical reality.

...consciously inhabiting many points of view.

this could be how inter-dimensional beings come to pass into our reality.

(or we pass into theirs)

i only said alter the consciousness by taking a psychedelic as i thought an extreme example in an alteration in point of view would make the idea more relatable.

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Re: is reality itself based on points of view? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26188317 -

This is more or less a reiteration of what has been said (by Loaded Shaman), but we must consider structuralism when asking this question. Language is unable to perfectly reflect the objective, material nature of reality (assuming there is one). Even the nature of this question is biased in that we are posing it from a strictly human perspective, which is necessarily limited in what it is able to perceive, experience, and rationalize.

That said, for convenience we must be able to presuppose a sort of subjective reality from which we can derive natural truths that reflect an objective system of logic. Ideally this system of natural truths could be understood and accepted by everyone, on the basis that it reflects certain constants of the natural world. I had an argument with my conservative co worker, who asserted that reality is subjective (which in turn validates all interpretations of reality), and that morality is objective. Besides his claim he offered no evidence or argument for why this is true, and remained steadfast in his views regardless of the evidence I offered against his assertion. He effectively built an iron fortress of cognitive dissonance to shield him from any information that could challenge his view, a function of the human brain that I consider to be self destructive and illogical.

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Re: is reality itself based on points of view? [Re: KrogerBrandOfficia]
    #26188782 -

We experience our moment to moment reality seemingly only in space and time, which I don't think gives us a chance at a birds eye view on the issue so to speak.

Reality being made up of language is an interesting concept that could probably deserve its own thread. If you have any belief in simulation theory being possible, it's likely that it'd all be rooted in some sort of programming language. The rabbit hole would still go down to what makes up base reality, though, and simulation theory has no real evidence backing it. Lots of other ways to go with the language thought though

Strassman hypothesized the IV doses of DMT he gave his participants tuned their brain in a way that merged their perception with whatever is going on with dark matter/energy. The beings that were seen there, with such shocking similarities between particpants, being very much real but out of our sober mind's grasp. Just a theory he threw out there, but coupled with new fMRI psychedelic studies and what we now know about the default mode network... it's just intriguing that messing with brain systems highly involved with our sense of self and time taps us into what seem to be alien realms, that are widely varied but also consistent often enough to be worth exploring further

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Re: is reality itself based on points of view? [Re: feevers] * 1
    #26190158 -

There are likely more dimensions of existance that do not have consciousness than realms that do have consciousness.  In fact the hellish realms are absence of awareness.

I do not find that consciousness is a pre existing condition or at all required for existence.  Consciousness is a by product of complex existence.

Religion tends to take an extreme position but not all of the schools of thought do.  To me God is a complication.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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