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Movement does not exist!
    #624745 -

you shoot an arrow.

Zenon: ?Time is divided in very, very small fractions that cannot be divided further. In any of these fractions the arrow is at a specific point. Since it is at a specific point, it does not move?

Aristotle: ?Time cannot be divided in undividable moments. Time can be divided infinitely?
(which is accepted by science today)

Zenon: ?Ok, so any magnitude can be divided infinitely. Which means that when you divide it infinite times, you get nothing as the result of the division. So, any magnitude is composed by infinite nothings, thus nothing at all. So, there is no magnitude for movement, therefore movement does not exist.?

Nomad probably hates it
evolving probably thinks it is bullshit
Swami probably finds it too easy
Sclorch probably has already read about it

but, what the fuck is going on?

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #624756 -

.. infinite series can have finite limits, therefore movement does exist.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Seuss]
    #624773 -

infinite series can have finite limits
yeah, just because we want it so

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #624805 -

Without movement, there is no time.
Without time, there is no movement.

Edited by evolving (05/02/02 10:59 AM)

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #624827 -

i think actually it means that only movement exists, like evolving said. As Aristotle said, you cannot have 0 time, so you cannot say that anything is ever standing still. LIke evolving said, without time, there's no space.

And my own theory is that if for any reason everything is completely still, it must mean there is a complete equilibrium of energy (correct me if im wrong about that) and at that *point* in time everything will dissolve back into to the Void - or more straightforwardly - cease to exist.

But Zenon does say something about nothingness. If movement is the law (law of change), that would lend itself to an understanding of emptiness - that phenomena is devoid of true essence since everything is in a perpetual state of change and nothing can be grasped.


Peace.

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #624904 -

> yeah, just because we want it so

What we want has nothing to do with it. You are saying that 2+3=5 (base 10) only because we want it to. Or a number is prime only because we want it to be prime?

What I am saying is that the limit of 1/n as n aproaches infinity is a finite number (not infinity). You can divide a distance up as many times as you like (to the end of time), but when those numbers are all summed together (1/1+1/2+1/3+1/4+1/5+1/6...) we get a value that is not 0 and is not infinity.

Of course none of this was really understood until after newton came along.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: ]
    #624907 -

> Without movement, there is no time.
> Without time, there is no movement.

This is only true assuming that the rest mass of whatever we are talking about is not 0. Don't forget that time and distance are not fixed, but can change based on the observers relative frame of reference.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Seuss]
    #624975 -

How do you define movement?

How do you define time?

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625067 -

Yeah... I have read about it.
Interesting theory. There's this English physicist who came up with this whole theory of there being no time (Discover magazine within the last 2 years: "Does Time Exist?" or something like that on the front cover).

Goes along with Alan Watts, determinism, the String Theorists (e.g. Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku, etc.) and all that jazz. I used to like it all... USED TO. Then I realized that determinism leaves out one huge detail... you've heard of it, it was the only thing that was not let out of Pandora's box.
Yeah, that thing. Well, I just can't ignore that thing... and there are a few other reasons why determinism doesn't cut it for me. But I digress.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625303 -

I think that seuss is right (although im not an expert).

When you divide by infinity, the number gets smaller and smaller, eventually it approaches a finite number but it will never quite get there. One of the most powerful tools in mathematics is being able to "approximate" this number. Think about a parabola, as one side exponentially increases, it will eventually become almost vertical and never quite pass a certain limiting number. Infinity cannot be finite!

As for the time thing; I was perusing a recently published book at my university's bookstore that was written by a physicist. The basic jist of it is this... this guy is predicting that the next breakthrough in physics will come from limiting the scope of what we consider time to be. Namely, he thinks that time will simply be considered as change and change will be time. This basically means that movement is time, so i guess you have a point when you say movement doesnt exist! Sorry i cant give more details and i forgot the name of it. I plan on reading it eventually though.


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:egyptian:

Edited by Catalysis (05/02/02 10:43 PM)

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Catalysis]
    #625310 -

I thikn that the term for that line that keeps dividing is a limit. a parabola is different
ie parabola - f(x)= x^2. it keeps going out, you know what i mean?
limit: f(x)=1/x 1/1,1/2,1/3....1/100000 you get the point. in this case the asymptote would be zero.
calculus was definitely the best math class i ever took......
maybe this post is a little knit-picky. sorry

peace.

Edited by JPAtanat (05/02/02 11:03 PM)

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625316 -

You're right (its been a while since calculus), i was just trying to give a graphical example of a limit. 

Thanks for pointing that out.  These damn computers are making me lazy. :smile:


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:egyptian:

Edited by Catalysis (05/02/02 11:08 PM)

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Sclorch]
    #625492 -

What if i "removed" the clocks as well as the knowledge of their exsistance from everyones brains, would there still be time? literally speaking no, for the word would not have ever exsisted, we would still be counting the suns and moons. If i was to illiterallize the statement, yes for we would percieve the word time in accordance to movement of the suns and moons, do you see my point.

the " movement " of the clocks provide order in society.

When you say movement does not exsist?

i would say as long as you believe you are moving or not moving, who would want to argue with you more than you?

illiterately speaking movement is part of the physical demension for without it we wouldn't be able to do much. literally speaking movement is just a word, or a perception, a perception which creates an illusion of reality in our society and our earth, do you see my point? meaning in the meaningless.


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"oh to be a kid again, not a worry in the world except mybe the lack of bubbles in the bath tub"

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625517 -

Zenon: ?Time is divided in very, very small fractions that cannot be divided further. In any of these fractions the arrow is at a specific point.
Since it is at a specific point, it does not move?

Though I still hate it, that one's slightly more interesting. What Zeno is doing here is committing a rather subtle logical fallacy: He starts with a very concrete notion of what movement is all about, leading this to a contradiction, and then concludes that movement doesn't exist, when all he really proved was that his definition didn't make sense. That's like me claiming that cheese is a big, green penguin standing on its head, and then concluding that, since there isn't such a thing, cheese doesn't exist.

Zeno implicitly assumes that movement is a quality inherent in an object, like its color, when, in fact, it's not. It is true that the arrow is standing still at every instant of time, but this doesn't prove that the arrow doesn't move, because "movement" is what we call standing still at time t, and standing still SOMEWHERE ELSE at time t+1.

Nomad probably hates it

It makes me sick.

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625528 -

.........nothingness..........eternity...........nothingness............eternity..........nothingness..............eternity.............

...........individuals..........oneness...........eternity............

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625669 -

i do not undesrand what you people are babbling about.
evolving said it all: movement and time are essentially the same thing. They both must exist for us to exist. If anything is ever completely still (which probably implies that the entire environment is still) it will not exists. time will stop, and space will cease to be. it is ludicrous to say that time doesn't exist. and in response to chemblue (or whatever the name is), if we erased all concepts of time, there would still be a sense of progression and and a sense of continuity. Maybe if we had absolutely no capacity for memory, we would not operate on any concept of time, but then we wouldn't be humans.

peace.

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625749 -

> movement and time are essentially the same thing.

Take a quantum mechanics class and then lets debate this.

> it is ludicrous to say that time doesn't exist
Why? If my rest mass is zero (a photon) and I am traveling at the speed of light, then what is time to me? There is a lot of difference between seeing the photon and measuring its speed and being the photon and having no speed.

> If anything is ever completely still

There is no such thing. You can only measure relative stillness.





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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Seuss]
    #625790 -

For those of us who don't have the time to take a quantum mechanics class, can you please provide a definition of time?

Is time a measure of relative motion? It would seem that the laymen's perception of time is based on relative motion (the concepts of day, year and hour are based on the movements of the earth). If this is the case, then if all relative motion stopped, time would stop. Of course perception would stop and no one would be able to take any measurement or observations to verify the fictions previously described.

Edited by evolving (05/03/02 02:37 PM)

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625845 -

All suffering is caused by being in the wrong place - MOVE!


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #626701 -

First, if you divide something by itself, you don't get nothing, you get one. But then, you can't really divide by infinity. It's not actually a number, it's only a concept you can approach.

That didn't help one bit, did it?

hongomon

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #627274 -

Aristotle: ?Time cannot be divided in undividable moments. Time can be divided infinitely?
(which is accepted by science today)

Not true. Physicists say the smallest amount of time possible is 0.000000000000000000000000000000000135125 seconds.
No, really.
That, of course, is the time would take light to travel the smallest possible distance. "Planck Length." Zeno's arrow can -not- go 1/2 of a planck length. Once it gets that close to the target it just has a 50% chance of going all the way or not going at all.

If you think about it, that means if you zoom in on our universe close enough, you see it's pixellated and it has a framerate.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.



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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Xibalba]
    #627494 -

Thats very interesting Xibalba. However, that theory assumes that relativity accurately describes the universe, which it does very well, BUT it has been known to have its shortcomings (especially on such extreme scales). I think that you are referring to what is currently called "quantum foam". That basically means that space takes on a foam-like charecteristic on sub-atomic scales.


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:egyptian:

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Xibalba]
    #628561 -

If you think about it, that means if you zoom in on our universe close enough, you see it's pixellated and it has a framerate.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

we are just artificial life/intelligence in virtual environments created on a super-biocomputer. the data, that is stored on a kind of self-regenerating network of fibers (equivalent to our hard disk), is our collective unconscious. the awareness of everyone right now is loaded on the (equivalent of) RAM, while our archetypes are stored on ROM. the maximum speed in our world (i.e. light speed) is just a limitation because of access/loading time, but on particular instances the use of cache, speeds things up a little bit (Gain-Assisted Superluminal Light Propagation).

the beings that created us, where themselves created by others, while we are on our way preparing the next generation. this whole recursion thing has its embryonic case recursively defined, meaning that by tracing back the creators we will find ourselves. this can be easily explained by the circular nature of time. we think of time as linear but that?s just because we are able to perceive only a tiny fraction.

now, i don?t want to get into more detail right now, but you ?re probably wondering how is it possible to know all that. well, it is all because of some onions i ate yesterday that disrupted the activity in my complex artificial neural networks. these onions were infected by a genetic algorithm, made by a young hacker, who recently abandoned the programming team of the creators. in religious terms, i am the chosen one to? naaah, i shouldn?t have pressed reply in the first place?

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