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OfflineAbstractSoul
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Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Axiom420]
    #541668 - 02/05/02 09:55 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

well, i guess this thread really isnt going to get anywhere. everyone wants to sit around and bullshit and debate jargon and pose questions as to what reality really is. its not that hard to understand what the question is asking. why do you believe? surely there is a reason, why would you believe something just to believe it? if that is the case then you are no better than the people who dont give a open thought to any crazy ideas they hear. come on, back your beliefs, or is there nothing to back with?


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house is a spiritual thing
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Edited by AbstractSoul (02/05/02 09:57 PM)


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Axiom420]
    #541680 - 02/05/02 10:01 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know what the hell you're talking about... I'm sure it makes sense, I just can't figure it out anymore. I wouldn't respond but I think some of that was addressed to me. Yikes. :wink:

About your second post, now we're going back in time (to a previous page in this thread). I forsee a loop that will bring us around to the present stage of the discussion, a discussion where no-one seems to know where the other person's at, as it's just  too subjective.

Let's all get together. I fear only then can we sort out this whole mess.  :laugh: 


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OfflineAbstractSoul
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Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #541727 - 02/05/02 10:40 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

actually, that wasn't addressed to you at all. i wasn't really trying to come across as harsh to anyone, just trying to get a point across. i would try and explain a little further but i just dont know if i care enough anymore. i guess i understand exactly what im asking but no one else probably does. oh well....



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house is a spiritual thing
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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 286
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #541828 - 02/06/02 12:23 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

actually exist in some form, somewhere in the universe or elsewhere

Well, physical or not physical, this is again, a pure and unsupported belief. It is unsupported because I personally can not perceive or sense anything anywhere, other then through my perception or senses. Period.

As far as supporting my beliefs go, then I must say I only try to believe that which I see (hear, feel, etc.). And then the only thing I believe about it is that I see it (hear it, feel it, etc.). And even then, waisting time believe something this insignificant is really a shame...

Somebody mentioned solipsism here. I must point out that the difference between this world view (subjective to the extreme, as I agree it is) and solipsism is in the way "I" is understood. Indeed, if you take a purely materialistic understanding of "I" as this particular persona who is currently typing this bullshit (as I agree it is), and add to it the extremely subjective approach to the rest of the world, then you would get garbage, which is solipsism. Once the "I" is understood correctly, no problems associated with solipsism exist.

Indeed, the fact that you are a "figment of my imagination" doesn't really mean that I should disregard or torture you or something like that. Also, it doesn't mean I can't learn from experience, for example, if the dream is such that I burn my hand on a stove, then even in a dream I should attempt to touch it again. This however, doesn't stand to prove any kind of reality outside of my imagination.





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OfflineMentalHygene
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 192
Loc: Somewhere...Under the rai...
Last seen: 17 years, 9 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #541956 - 02/06/02 02:14 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

..........." He said its all in your head"
"I said so is everything, but he didn't get it" -fiona apple

I've just been looking for a time and place to use that quote, and I thought it worked nicely here. Everything that we see, hear, feel, etc. is a process of electrical impulses in our brains....therefore it can not even be argued that it is all in your head. Sure, all of you exist, but what if my perception of you is something totally different, from someone elses perception af what a human being looks like? I'm going to try my best to not make this too muddy: The color that I see as BLUE is blue to me because my mind was conditioned from the time I was young to see that particular color as blue. however........what if my mother who told me "this is blue" is processing that color in a completely different way. It is still blue to both of us though because of the mental conditioning that we have both endured since birth. Our color processors might be seeing totally different colors. (ex. her red is my blue and visa versa) I'm sure that I will get shit for this one, but it is something to ponder.


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: MentalHygene]
    #542022 - 02/06/02 03:13 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

yeb  yeb yeb yeb yebyebyebyeb... uh huh uh huh :wink:

Oh, that's from Sesame Street if you don't recognize it. There's a couple of aliens that do that.

Anyhow, you're exactly right (at least to my perception...). I've had those thoughts many times. 

Fiona Apple is cool, by the way.


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Edited by Ulysees (02/06/02 03:14 AM)


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OfflineMentalHygene
otherworldly

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 192
Loc: Somewhere...Under the rai...
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #542845 - 02/06/02 08:37 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Anyone else ever had thoughts like this?
by the way: I did recognize the seasemy street thing!


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #543528 - 02/07/02 11:53 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Abstract, I always trip in total darkness with my eyes closed so i've never seen any "buddhas in the road" kinda stuff. I've met 3 types of aliens so far, insectoid mantis types who arn't too interested in you, a reptile who does most of the communicating with me - showing me scenes of devastation of either his planets history or the earth, and little toddler sized aliens who are very friendly and loving.

As to whether they exist, they exist as much as anything else my mind can comprehend. Whether or not some fuckwit thinks it's not "real" because i can't physically prove it - who gives a fuck?

All those people who created rules, who created traditions, who created countries, who created their version of reality - all them fuckers are dead. Why can't we make our own world, based on our own experience, while we got the chance?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMentalHygene
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 192
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #543657 - 02/07/02 01:58 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Amen brotha!


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"


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OfflineAbstractSoul
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Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #543732 - 02/07/02 03:09 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Ah, Alex understands. This is the kind of responds I was looking for. So, just to clarify here, you believe these aliens are actual beings and not just products of your mind? have you had any contact with these aliens while sober?


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house is a spiritual thing
---------------------------------------------


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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Registered: 12/21/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #543798 - 02/07/02 04:16 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I hear what yer saying alex, and I understand.

But at the same time, I know that I could never feel like anything I only saw while tripping, that I know from countless experience I don't see otherwise, could be "real." That it could be anything less than a manifestation of my subconcious in some visual form. The subconcious idea and the meaning behind are what is real and interesting to me anyway, not the visual object.

I'm not trying to tell you that what you're believing is not real, although it may sound that way. I'm just curious as to why you wouldn't believe that these aliens "appearance" are a product of the drugs you're taking?


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #543810 - 02/07/02 04:23 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

On a somewhat related sidenote, isn't it interesting that hallucinations about aliens (or anything else for that matter) that most of us see while tripping are based solely on what we have observed on earth? I mean, as an argument against these beings truly being aliens, just look at their bodies. They're always based on forms of life that we have on this planet, e.g. mantis, humanoid, etc.

Now if there were really aliens on other worlds, which they're might be, how could they possibly resemble any form of life that has developed on earth (assuming life on earth developed independantly)? What I mean to say is, try and visualize an alien that has a body that is not based in some way on things we have here. As weird as your imagination can get, the creature you are picturing looks like an earth creature, whether it has tentacles, claws, slimy skin, fur, teeth, etc. It's impossible to imagine any type of body that we have not observed, that would be alien. If aliens really did come down to visit us from other worlds, how come they look like earth beings?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #543931 - 02/07/02 06:10 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Yo Abstract, whether or not they exist in reality ie, somewhere else in space/time there's an alien communicating with me or whether it's something that for some reason only exists in my mind..i'm not really sure! Nope, I've never met an alie sober. But is the version of reality our minds have in everday life any more valid than the psilocybin reality? I think Mckenna said something like if a hummingbird flew into a baby's room the baby would be having a purely psychedelic experience - it's only later when it's parents go "That's a hummingbird" that the experience becomes "reality" because it's defined and reduced by language.

Roger Pemrose's ideas are that the human conscious is best understood by quantum physics - where all intuitive human ideas of space/time are completly broken down. If aliens were to exist, I imagine they'd choose the conscious as the way to contact other sentinent beings.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #543938 - 02/07/02 06:21 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah gluke, all the "aliens" i've seen are related to things my mind can comprehend. But maybe that's a necessity of the experience - if an alien was to appear purely as a bunch of carbon atoms or whatever aliens look like, would my mind be able to comprehend it? There's obviously a synergy between the psilocybin and the human mind, they interact with each other so every person has their own individual slant.

But sure, it could certainly just be a manifestation of something already in the human mind. I wouldn't be disappointed by that tho - if for some reason the human brain can make up alternate worlds with the help of psilocybin I think that's pretty spectacular too. Jeremy Narby put forward an interesting idea in his book "The cosmic serpent" - that psychedelics put the mind into a state such that it can communicate with the actual DNA structure. Is DNA likely to be a building block of any alien life too? Is the DNA that forms the basis of all life on earth native to earth? Or has it formed life elsewhere?



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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAbstractSoul
member

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #543944 - 02/07/02 06:27 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

very well put Alex. you've got me thinking now. it sounds like you've read some pretty interesting books relating to psychedelics, have any suggestions?


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---------------------------------------------
house is a spiritual thing
---------------------------------------------


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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 286
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #544777 - 02/08/02 01:27 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

As to whether they exist, they exist as much as anything else my mind can comprehend. Whether or not some fuckwit thinks it's not "real" because i can't physically prove it - who gives a fuck?

Dude, my sentiments exactly.

-- Grib


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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 286
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #544780 - 02/08/02 01:28 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

So, just to clarify here, you believe these aliens are actual beings and not just products of your mind?

And as always there is one who misses the point entirely...


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OfflineAbstractSoul
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Registered: 02/01/02
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #544814 - 02/08/02 02:10 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

>And as always there is one who misses the point entirely...

exactly. maybe you didnt read the question when you came in. the question is, do you believe they are "actual beings". if you do, then you do. if you dont know, and can only make broad statements about it, then you DON'T KNOW- which everyone else seems to have no problem admitting to.

why do i keep getting the feeling that gribochek has to feel like he's above and beyond...



--------------------
---------------------------------------------
house is a spiritual thing
---------------------------------------------


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #544922 - 02/08/02 03:56 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Anything and everything we experience is a "product" of the mind, more or less. What you don't want is an invention of the mind, right?

That's how I understand what you're talking about anyhow. Mind inventions are also interesting and important and have immense potential, but when you want apples it's annoying when people keep pushing oranges on you. Or I've missed the point too. :wink: 

Ex: The aliens came to me through my mind, but they exist elsewhere, perhaps on another frequency or vibration or whatever.

Ex2: The aliens came to me from my mind. I was tripping and my brain made the whole thing up, just as it made up the bogeyman when I was little.

Of these two very basic scenarios, the second would be less desirable. 


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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #545357 - 02/09/02 12:44 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

the question is, do you believe they are "actual beings". if you do, then you do. if you dont know, and can only make broad statements about it

Suppose I ask you "is this building grey or tall" and you say "both" and I say "I don't believe you, it is either or" and you say "no, it is both" and I say, "well, you really don't know, and you are making broad statements" what do you say then? Probably something like what I say to you now: "something is wrong with the question".

why do i keep getting the feeling that gribochek has to feel like he's above and beyond...
(Should I insult you or tell the truth? Ok, I'll do both) Bastard, because I do!

-- Grib


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