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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Movement does not exist!
    #624745 - 05/02/02 10:56 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

you shoot an arrow.

Zenon: ?Time is divided in very, very small fractions that cannot be divided further. In any of these fractions the arrow is at a specific point. Since it is at a specific point, it does not move?

Aristotle: ?Time cannot be divided in undividable moments. Time can be divided infinitely?
(which is accepted by science today)

Zenon: ?Ok, so any magnitude can be divided infinitely. Which means that when you divide it infinite times, you get nothing as the result of the division. So, any magnitude is composed by infinite nothings, thus nothing at all. So, there is no magnitude for movement, therefore movement does not exist.?

Nomad probably hates it
evolving probably thinks it is bullshit
Swami probably finds it too easy
Sclorch probably has already read about it

but, what the fuck is going on?


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #624756 - 05/02/02 11:07 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

.. infinite series can have finite limits, therefore movement does exist.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Seuss]
    #624773 - 05/02/02 11:36 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

infinite series can have finite limits
yeah, just because we want it so


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Anonymous

Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #624805 - 05/02/02 12:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Without movement, there is no time.
Without time, there is no movement.


Edited by Anonymous (05/02/02 12:59 PM)


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OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #624827 - 05/02/02 01:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i think actually it means that only movement exists, like evolving said. As Aristotle said, you cannot have 0 time, so you cannot say that anything is ever standing still. LIke evolving said, without time, there's no space.

And my own theory is that if for any reason everything is completely still, it must mean there is a complete equilibrium of energy (correct me if im wrong about that) and at that *point* in time everything will dissolve back into to the Void - or more straightforwardly - cease to exist.

But Zenon does say something about nothingness. If movement is the law (law of change), that would lend itself to an understanding of emptiness - that phenomena is devoid of true essence since everything is in a perpetual state of change and nothing can be grasped.


Peace.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #624904 - 05/02/02 03:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

> yeah, just because we want it so

What we want has nothing to do with it. You are saying that 2+3=5 (base 10) only because we want it to. Or a number is prime only because we want it to be prime?

What I am saying is that the limit of 1/n as n aproaches infinity is a finite number (not infinity). You can divide a distance up as many times as you like (to the end of time), but when those numbers are all summed together (1/1+1/2+1/3+1/4+1/5+1/6...) we get a value that is not 0 and is not infinity.

Of course none of this was really understood until after newton came along.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: ]
    #624907 - 05/02/02 03:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

> Without movement, there is no time.
> Without time, there is no movement.

This is only true assuming that the rest mass of whatever we are talking about is not 0. Don't forget that time and distance are not fixed, but can change based on the observers relative frame of reference.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Anonymous

Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Seuss]
    #624975 - 05/02/02 04:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

How do you define movement?

How do you define time?


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625067 - 05/02/02 06:36 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah... I have read about it.
Interesting theory. There's this English physicist who came up with this whole theory of there being no time (Discover magazine within the last 2 years: "Does Time Exist?" or something like that on the front cover).

Goes along with Alan Watts, determinism, the String Theorists (e.g. Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku, etc.) and all that jazz. I used to like it all... USED TO. Then I realized that determinism leaves out one huge detail... you've heard of it, it was the only thing that was not let out of Pandora's box.
Yeah, that thing. Well, I just can't ignore that thing... and there are a few other reasons why determinism doesn't cut it for me. But I digress.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625303 - 05/03/02 12:40 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think that seuss is right (although im not an expert).

When you divide by infinity, the number gets smaller and smaller, eventually it approaches a finite number but it will never quite get there. One of the most powerful tools in mathematics is being able to "approximate" this number. Think about a parabola, as one side exponentially increases, it will eventually become almost vertical and never quite pass a certain limiting number. Infinity cannot be finite!

As for the time thing; I was perusing a recently published book at my university's bookstore that was written by a physicist. The basic jist of it is this... this guy is predicting that the next breakthrough in physics will come from limiting the scope of what we consider time to be. Namely, he thinks that time will simply be considered as change and change will be time. This basically means that movement is time, so i guess you have a point when you say movement doesnt exist! Sorry i cant give more details and i forgot the name of it. I plan on reading it eventually though.


--------------------
:egyptian:


Edited by Catalysis (05/03/02 12:43 AM)


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OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Catalysis]
    #625310 - 05/03/02 12:54 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I thikn that the term for that line that keeps dividing is a limit. a parabola is different
ie parabola - f(x)= x^2. it keeps going out, you know what i mean?
limit: f(x)=1/x 1/1,1/2,1/3....1/100000 you get the point. in this case the asymptote would be zero.
calculus was definitely the best math class i ever took......
maybe this post is a little knit-picky. sorry

peace.


Edited by JPAtanat (05/03/02 01:03 AM)


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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
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Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625316 - 05/03/02 01:04 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You're right (its been a while since calculus), i was just trying to give a graphical example of a limit. 

Thanks for pointing that out.  These damn computers are making me lazy. :smile:


--------------------
:egyptian:


Edited by Catalysis (05/03/02 01:08 AM)


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OfflineInDiCaToRgReEn
newbie
Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 47
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Sclorch]
    #625492 - 05/03/02 06:44 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What if i "removed" the clocks as well as the knowledge of their exsistance from everyones brains, would there still be time? literally speaking no, for the word would not have ever exsisted, we would still be counting the suns and moons. If i was to illiterallize the statement, yes for we would percieve the word time in accordance to movement of the suns and moons, do you see my point.

the " movement " of the clocks provide order in society.

When you say movement does not exsist?

i would say as long as you believe you are moving or not moving, who would want to argue with you more than you?

illiterately speaking movement is part of the physical demension for without it we wouldn't be able to do much. literally speaking movement is just a word, or a perception, a perception which creates an illusion of reality in our society and our earth, do you see my point? meaning in the meaningless.


--------------------
"oh to be a kid again, not a worry in the world except mybe the lack of bubbles in the bath tub"


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625517 - 05/03/02 08:06 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Zenon: ?Time is divided in very, very small fractions that cannot be divided further. In any of these fractions the arrow is at a specific point.
Since it is at a specific point, it does not move?


Though I still hate it, that one's slightly more interesting. What Zeno is doing here is committing a rather subtle logical fallacy: He starts with a very concrete notion of what movement is all about, leading this to a contradiction, and then concludes that movement doesn't exist, when all he really proved was that his definition didn't make sense. That's like me claiming that cheese is a big, green penguin standing on its head, and then concluding that, since there isn't such a thing, cheese doesn't exist.

Zeno implicitly assumes that movement is a quality inherent in an object, like its color, when, in fact, it's not. It is true that the arrow is standing still at every instant of time, but this doesn't prove that the arrow doesn't move, because "movement" is what we call standing still at time t, and standing still SOMEWHERE ELSE at time t+1.

Nomad probably hates it

It makes me sick.


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OfflineTannis
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Registered: 12/13/01
Posts: 508
Loc: MD.USA
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625528 - 05/03/02 10:10 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

.........nothingness..........eternity...........nothingness............eternity..........nothingness..............eternity.............

...........individuals..........oneness...........eternity............


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OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625669 - 05/03/02 01:53 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i do not undesrand what you people are babbling about.
evolving said it all: movement and time are essentially the same thing. They both must exist for us to exist. If anything is ever completely still (which probably implies that the entire environment is still) it will not exists. time will stop, and space will cease to be. it is ludicrous to say that time doesn't exist. and in response to chemblue (or whatever the name is), if we erased all concepts of time, there would still be a sense of progression and and a sense of continuity. Maybe if we had absolutely no capacity for memory, we would not operate on any concept of time, but then we wouldn't be humans.

peace.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 8 months, 14 days
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: JPAtanat]
    #625749 - 05/03/02 03:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

> movement and time are essentially the same thing.

Take a quantum mechanics class and then lets debate this.

> it is ludicrous to say that time doesn't exist
Why? If my rest mass is zero (a photon) and I am traveling at the speed of light, then what is time to me? There is a lot of difference between seeing the photon and measuring its speed and being the photon and having no speed.

> If anything is ever completely still

There is no such thing. You can only measure relative stillness.





--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Anonymous

Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: Seuss]
    #625790 - 05/03/02 04:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

For those of us who don't have the time to take a quantum mechanics class, can you please provide a definition of time?

Is time a measure of relative motion? It would seem that the laymen's perception of time is based on relative motion (the concepts of day, year and hour are based on the movements of the earth). If this is the case, then if all relative motion stopped, time would stop. Of course perception would stop and no one would be able to take any measurement or observations to verify the fictions previously described.


Edited by Anonymous (05/03/02 04:37 PM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,586
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #625845 - 05/03/02 05:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

All suffering is caused by being in the wrong place - MOVE!


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Movement does not exist! [Re: raytrace]
    #626701 - 05/11/02 11:39 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

First, if you divide something by itself, you don't get nothing, you get one. But then, you can't really divide by infinity. It's not actually a number, it's only a concept you can approach.

That didn't help one bit, did it?

hongomon


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