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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Reality vs. the mushroom
    #539773 -

i've seen some talk on here about seeing and communicating with "aliens", among other things, while tripping. my question is: why exactly do you see these experiences as "real" and not drug induced. i have friends that have seen dragons flying above their house, elves running alongside their car and giant buddha's in the middle of the road. they dont see these visions as events that actually happened though. i have seen things like peoples faces melting, but they definitely weren't. dont get me wrong, i'm not attacking anyone's beliefs, or the spirituality associated with shrooms. just looking for a little insight.


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house is a spiritual thing
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #539790 -

Good luck on getting a rational answer.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #539813 -

AbstractSoul, I am challenging you, Swami and everyone else to please, please, define what you mean by "actually happened"....

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #539823 -

Well, what "actually happened" means is this: The persons face did not physically melt. There was not a physical elf running around. "Actually" basically means physically, carbon based, on this plane, correct? Whether or not you look at the phenomenon at a deeper level is another matter. That's usually where things get interesting, but that's also where you get into "belief" territory.


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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #540025 -

Well, the elf wasn't physical per say.....because elves (usually anyway) have their conscious bodies in a different vibration, to the 4th density.  Same thing with fairies, but I dunno about dragons and buddhas though.  Here's looking forward to post-2003!  Heheh.
:smile:


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I'm praying for infinite lapdances in heaven and an infinite supply of cocaine to snort out of Angelina Jolie's ass crack.

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #540391 -

"Actually" basically means physically, carbon based, on this plane, correct?

Correct or not is not for me to say. But notice that you have shifted one undefined term (actual) into another undefined term (physical). Whatever you call it, physical, objective, real, sober, confirmed, whatever, what is that state of being?

I will expand on this a little bit with more questions.

1. Did you actually dream that dream which you dreamt last night? You did, actually, have that dream, right? Will you, can you and should you find any independent confirmation, any objective measure by which you can be assured of the dream's actuality?

2. In a mirror you can see a reflection of a vase. Is the reflection still there once you leave? The actuality of reflection _can_ be independently confirmed by _any_ observer which comes into contact with the mirror, yet, it is clear that only two positions are self-consistent in this regard, a) The reflection is always there, and b) the reflection is never there. This matter, no doubt will raise objections, such as "a reflection is a percieved object, not real, for it is just how the rays of light interact with the mirror and your eyes". To this I ask "Do you mean to say that seeing any reflection is a hallucination?" and also "what if there were no mirror at all, but just a screen preventing one to touch the object?".

The questions like this will never end in any meaningful way for as long as one doesn't understand that objective/physical/actual reality is no more then a construct of the mind. This is very-very easy to see. Suppose there was an experiement to prove objective reality of an object/phenomenon independent of perception. How would you know the results of such experiment? By perceiving them in some form (reading, hearing, seeing, etc.) dependent on human sense organs, which makes the experiment dependent on perception once again. Thus the only way to invision objective reality is to believe in it without prove.

-- Grib

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #540430 -

Okay, you see an alien. You could say: hmm, maybe i should investigate this further.

In the end it doesn't matter because you're the only one that really exists, so you are the one that determines what's true and real.

Doubt is Knowledge


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a strange direction can be a beautiful opportunity

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #540520 -

Well for me personally, the ratio of aliens seen while tripping vs aliens seen while sober or in a meditative state is about 1:100
Anyway if I see something..its real enough for me.
Some people see dark evil figures while walking through the woods at night...does this mean those evil forces are actually there? Or are they a manifestation of that own persons subconscious fears? Or are they just tricks of the eye with shadows?Either way, the force is very real.

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Lord_A]
    #540522 -

definition of "actually happened": "aliens", or anything else, communicated with or seen truely exist in some form and are not the result of your mind and your mind alone creating images and experiences due to being under the effects of the almight mushroom(or anything else). hope that made at least a little sense...


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house is a spiritual thing
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: ]
    #540528 -

well, i have a lot of experience with meditation and i would not consider being in a meditative state sober. meditation can be as intense as a trip and meditating is a lot like dreaming. meditation is also all about the mind, so once again anything experienced can be due to your mind creating it, not that it is "actually happening".


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house is a spiritual thing
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #540546 -

Alright grib, you're just going to keep asking questions aren't you. :wink: I see what you're saying, but you have to have a little faith in the "real" world if you want to live in it.
That stuff about mirrors was pretty interesting though. I haven't thought of that before. A mirror is reflecting everything at once, but we only perceive a small amount of it. Can you imagine perceiving everything reflected off a mirrors surface? Maybe I'm heading in the wrong direction with this, I'm stopping because there isn't much point in continuing. It's actually not that mind boggling compared to other things, like this: When you look at your blue jeans, you see blue. The jeans are actually every color except blue, but they're all reflecting at once and cancelling eachother out... Or at least it's something like that, I can't quite remember. Anyhow, that's kind of what a mirror is doing I guess, but not really. 


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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #540760 -

since we can't come to a common definition of reality???
maybe the problem is that we are not capable of creating or finding a perfect definition, due to the nature of reality the definition can not be reasoned and therefore doesn't exist.
"I saw..." and "I experienced..." and "I felt..." are all very subjective. To advance you need to start communication on the level of "It was reasoned to be, in this manner..." to get a little more objective. Speak in forms of immediate inference and syllogisms and in the forms for using these. Then...maybe we could actually have a meaningful conversation in here, instead of this meaninless "My bullshit is better than yours." crap.

I'm gonna go use my Mayan calendar for toliet-paper now while I contemplate how crop circles are made by the ani of giant aliens that look like floating mushroom caps.

Barbara, Celarent, Darii, Ferioque prioris;
Cesare, Camestres, Festino, Baroko, secundae;
Tertia: Darapti, Disamis, Datisi, Felapton,
Bokardo, Ferison, habet; quarta insuper addit
Bramantip, Carnenes, Dimaris, Fesapo, Fresison.

Where does it all go?

http://www.physical-congress.spb.ru/english/Bernshtein/1/Bernshtein.htm

We have the capability to be knowledgable in areas of science, philosophy, the inexplicable, and of discussing things articulately and accurately. Inform yourself.


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #541007 -

The jeans has no colour. It absorbs light of any wavelength, except blue. This is reflected, and hits your eye, where the light is flipped vertically through your lens. Then the cells at the back of your eye recieve the light. Some convert the wavelength to electrical signals and send the signal to your brain. The other cells convert the amplitude and convert....

Then I'd imagine that the visual cortex takes over. Neurons fire, synapses release and recieve chemicals, and somehow you percieve colour. But the jeans have no colour.
Correct me if I've got any details wrong.

A mirror reflects all the light. Thus a mirror has either no colour, or all colour, depending on how you define it.

>Can you imagine perceiving everything reflected off a mirrors surface?
Can you imagine percieven everything reflected by your jeans? You would see your pants from all angles at the same time.


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Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Axiom420]
    #541091 -

To advance you need to start communication on the level of "It was reasoned to be, in this manner..."

To advance where?

to get a little more objective

I see now.

maybe we could actually have a meaningful conversation in here, instead of this meaninless "My bullshit is better than yours." crap.

You seem to have started the "meaningful" part :smile:

I'm gonna go use my Mayan calendar for toliet-paper now while I contemplate how crop circles are made by the ani of giant aliens that look like floating mushroom caps

Here the meaninful part takes the life of its own...

'nuff said

-- Grib 

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #541095 -

you have to have a little faith in the "real" world if you want to live in it.

Meaning if I don't have faith, I will not live in a the real world? Where would I live? Considering that we were talking about "real" meaning "physical"/"objective" do I have to have faith in "physical" world to live in it? How precicely correct you are, not even meaning to have been :smile:

This is exactly what happens. To perceive some kind of objective reality we must have faith in it. This is what is at the core of scientific swamism -- faith, not proof. Talk about falcification and control of the masses...

-- Grib.


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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #541115 -

Personally, I'm prepared to accept "objective reality" purely on the grounds of modesty. It's too hard for me to believe that you're all a figment of my imagination...I'm just not that resourceful :wink: 

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #541357 -

ok...i would just like to throw this whole real meaning physicall idea out the window. that isn't what i meant at all, and i tried to explain that in my earlier post.
what i meant by real was, the beings that you see or commmunicate with are not only figments of your imagination and actually exist in some form, somewhere in the universe or elsewhere.


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house is a spiritual thing
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #541370 -

>what i meant by real was, the beings that you see or commmunicate with are not only figments of your imagination and actually exist in some form, somewhere in the universe or elsewhere.

That's pretty much exactly what I meant too. We're never going to overcome the language barrier.

Timeleech: Your description of the "color system" sounds right. You rang all the right bells in my head with that one. :wink:

Gribocheck: What I meant about having faith in the "real" world, is remembering to eat "real" food, and drink "real" water, otherwise your "physical existence" here is in jeopardy... I hope that doesn't pose too many parrallels or holes. :smile: 

Oh, and that deeper meaning stuff was not intended, but understood.
We have to have a little faith in this existence. If we didn't, we probably wouldn't be sportin around town, using our computers, etc etc... There are people who seem to have no cognitive recognition of this world. The lucky ones end up in good institutions or in the care of loved ones. Where exactly they are, I don't know. They don't seem to be "brain dead", so they must be "somewhere". Perhaps their minds are tuned into something that their bodies can't exist with... I don't mean Shangri-La, just something.

Anyhow, these words I've thrown out into the publics eye probably aren't conveying the same message they're meant to, but a wise man once told me not to worry so much about what message gets across... :wink:


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Edited by Ulysees (02/05/02 01:18 PM)

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #541654 -

subjective levels of understanding are indeterminable as to their value. especially when no one has agreed upon a common definition of even one thing.

i recognize that i am not alone here, where ever here is. i don't believe that everyone else is just a grand hallucination in my mind, whatever that is. i just accept that other individuals exist, that i am capable of communicating with them, of being able to manipulate certain aspects of the physical universe at my will, and that i am not fundamentally different than these other individuals.

to appropriate sense, when one really has none, is to put out a foul mockery of intelligent communication. the meaning of the message is important. nonsense is not a message. monsense is just nonsense.

just because a communication is intended doesn't mean that a response, a formed opinion, or understanding that appears to happen in another individual is related to the original message. just because they occur at the same time doesn't mean they're related. this is the case when definitions are not discused. meaningless nonsense.


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Axiom420]
    #541659 -

top.
i suppose that the real question is what do we mean by real.
is real that which i percieve?
or is it something static regardless of my own experience of it?

real is that which is real?
can you define something by itself?

real is....that which actually exists? out side of my mind?
do i believe in reality? or in my perception of reality?
is my perception of reality accurate?
accurate enough for the things that matter to me?
or maybe i exist in reality?

if you believe that your perception somehow dictates the nature of reality then you are being very solipsistic and then the rest of humanity is a hallucination of your brain and you're mearly indulging yourself with your perception of the shroomery.


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

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