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OfflineAbstractSoul
member

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 22 years, 6 months
Reality vs. the mushroom
    #539773 - 02/03/02 11:13 PM (23 years, 16 days ago)

i've seen some talk on here about seeing and communicating with "aliens", among other things, while tripping. my question is: why exactly do you see these experiences as "real" and not drug induced. i have friends that have seen dragons flying above their house, elves running alongside their car and giant buddha's in the middle of the road. they dont see these visions as events that actually happened though. i have seen things like peoples faces melting, but they definitely weren't. dont get me wrong, i'm not attacking anyone's beliefs, or the spirituality associated with shrooms. just looking for a little insight.


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house is a spiritual thing
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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #539790 - 02/03/02 11:44 PM (23 years, 16 days ago)

Good luck on getting a rational answer.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #539813 - 02/04/02 12:01 AM (23 years, 16 days ago)

AbstractSoul, I am challenging you, Swami and everyone else to please, please, define what you mean by "actually happened"....

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #539823 - 02/04/02 12:09 AM (23 years, 16 days ago)

Well, what "actually happened" means is this: The persons face did not physically melt. There was not a physical elf running around. "Actually" basically means physically, carbon based, on this plane, correct? Whether or not you look at the phenomenon at a deeper level is another matter. That's usually where things get interesting, but that's also where you get into "belief" territory.


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OfflineKeepAskingTime
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Registered: 05/14/01
Posts: 596
Loc: Central PA
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #540025 - 02/04/02 05:56 AM (23 years, 16 days ago)

Well, the elf wasn't physical per say.....because elves (usually anyway) have their conscious bodies in a different vibration, to the 4th density.  Same thing with fairies, but I dunno about dragons and buddhas though.  Here's looking forward to post-2003!  Heheh.
:smile:


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I'm praying for infinite lapdances in heaven and an infinite supply of cocaine to snort out of Angelina Jolie's ass crack.

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Offlinegribochek
enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #540391 - 02/04/02 03:23 PM (23 years, 15 days ago)

"Actually" basically means physically, carbon based, on this plane, correct?

Correct or not is not for me to say. But notice that you have shifted one undefined term (actual) into another undefined term (physical). Whatever you call it, physical, objective, real, sober, confirmed, whatever, what is that state of being?

I will expand on this a little bit with more questions.

1. Did you actually dream that dream which you dreamt last night? You did, actually, have that dream, right? Will you, can you and should you find any independent confirmation, any objective measure by which you can be assured of the dream's actuality?

2. In a mirror you can see a reflection of a vase. Is the reflection still there once you leave? The actuality of reflection _can_ be independently confirmed by _any_ observer which comes into contact with the mirror, yet, it is clear that only two positions are self-consistent in this regard, a) The reflection is always there, and b) the reflection is never there. This matter, no doubt will raise objections, such as "a reflection is a percieved object, not real, for it is just how the rays of light interact with the mirror and your eyes". To this I ask "Do you mean to say that seeing any reflection is a hallucination?" and also "what if there were no mirror at all, but just a screen preventing one to touch the object?".

The questions like this will never end in any meaningful way for as long as one doesn't understand that objective/physical/actual reality is no more then a construct of the mind. This is very-very easy to see. Suppose there was an experiement to prove objective reality of an object/phenomenon independent of perception. How would you know the results of such experiment? By perceiving them in some form (reading, hearing, seeing, etc.) dependent on human sense organs, which makes the experiment dependent on perception once again. Thus the only way to invision objective reality is to believe in it without prove.

-- Grib

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OfflineLord_A
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Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 33
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 23 years, 9 hours
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #540430 - 02/04/02 04:10 PM (23 years, 15 days ago)

Okay, you see an alien. You could say: hmm, maybe i should investigate this further.

In the end it doesn't matter because you're the only one that really exists, so you are the one that determines what's true and real.

Doubt is Knowledge


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a strange direction can be a beautiful opportunity

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Anonymous

Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #540520 - 02/04/02 05:50 PM (23 years, 15 days ago)

Well for me personally, the ratio of aliens seen while tripping vs aliens seen while sober or in a meditative state is about 1:100
Anyway if I see something..its real enough for me.
Some people see dark evil figures while walking through the woods at night...does this mean those evil forces are actually there? Or are they a manifestation of that own persons subconscious fears? Or are they just tricks of the eye with shadows?Either way, the force is very real.

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OfflineAbstractSoul
member

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 22 years, 6 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Lord_A]
    #540522 - 02/04/02 05:51 PM (23 years, 15 days ago)

definition of "actually happened": "aliens", or anything else, communicated with or seen truely exist in some form and are not the result of your mind and your mind alone creating images and experiences due to being under the effects of the almight mushroom(or anything else). hope that made at least a little sense...


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house is a spiritual thing
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OfflineAbstractSoul
member

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 22 years, 6 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: ]
    #540528 - 02/04/02 05:57 PM (23 years, 15 days ago)

well, i have a lot of experience with meditation and i would not consider being in a meditative state sober. meditation can be as intense as a trip and meditating is a lot like dreaming. meditation is also all about the mind, so once again anything experienced can be due to your mind creating it, not that it is "actually happening".


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house is a spiritual thing
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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #540546 - 02/04/02 06:26 PM (23 years, 15 days ago)

Alright grib, you're just going to keep asking questions aren't you. :wink: I see what you're saying, but you have to have a little faith in the "real" world if you want to live in it.
That stuff about mirrors was pretty interesting though. I haven't thought of that before. A mirror is reflecting everything at once, but we only perceive a small amount of it. Can you imagine perceiving everything reflected off a mirrors surface? Maybe I'm heading in the wrong direction with this, I'm stopping because there isn't much point in continuing. It's actually not that mind boggling compared to other things, like this: When you look at your blue jeans, you see blue. The jeans are actually every color except blue, but they're all reflecting at once and cancelling eachother out... Or at least it's something like that, I can't quite remember. Anyhow, that's kind of what a mirror is doing I guess, but not really. 


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OfflineAxiom420
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #540760 - 02/04/02 10:28 PM (23 years, 15 days ago)

since we can't come to a common definition of reality???
maybe the problem is that we are not capable of creating or finding a perfect definition, due to the nature of reality the definition can not be reasoned and therefore doesn't exist.
"I saw..." and "I experienced..." and "I felt..." are all very subjective. To advance you need to start communication on the level of "It was reasoned to be, in this manner..." to get a little more objective. Speak in forms of immediate inference and syllogisms and in the forms for using these. Then...maybe we could actually have a meaningful conversation in here, instead of this meaninless "My bullshit is better than yours." crap.

I'm gonna go use my Mayan calendar for toliet-paper now while I contemplate how crop circles are made by the ani of giant aliens that look like floating mushroom caps.

Barbara, Celarent, Darii, Ferioque prioris;
Cesare, Camestres, Festino, Baroko, secundae;
Tertia: Darapti, Disamis, Datisi, Felapton,
Bokardo, Ferison, habet; quarta insuper addit
Bramantip, Carnenes, Dimaris, Fesapo, Fresison.

Where does it all go?

http://www.physical-congress.spb.ru/english/Bernshtein/1/Bernshtein.htm

We have the capability to be knowledgable in areas of science, philosophy, the inexplicable, and of discussing things articulately and accurately. Inform yourself.


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

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OfflineTimeleech
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Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 590
Loc: Norway
Last seen: 21 years, 5 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #541007 - 02/05/02 05:20 AM (23 years, 15 days ago)

The jeans has no colour. It absorbs light of any wavelength, except blue. This is reflected, and hits your eye, where the light is flipped vertically through your lens. Then the cells at the back of your eye recieve the light. Some convert the wavelength to electrical signals and send the signal to your brain. The other cells convert the amplitude and convert....

Then I'd imagine that the visual cortex takes over. Neurons fire, synapses release and recieve chemicals, and somehow you percieve colour. But the jeans have no colour.
Correct me if I've got any details wrong.

A mirror reflects all the light. Thus a mirror has either no colour, or all colour, depending on how you define it.

>Can you imagine perceiving everything reflected off a mirrors surface?
Can you imagine percieven everything reflected by your jeans? You would see your pants from all angles at the same time.


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org

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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Axiom420]
    #541091 - 02/05/02 07:43 AM (23 years, 15 days ago)

To advance you need to start communication on the level of "It was reasoned to be, in this manner..."

To advance where?

to get a little more objective

I see now.

maybe we could actually have a meaningful conversation in here, instead of this meaninless "My bullshit is better than yours." crap.

You seem to have started the "meaningful" part :smile:

I'm gonna go use my Mayan calendar for toliet-paper now while I contemplate how crop circles are made by the ani of giant aliens that look like floating mushroom caps

Here the meaninful part takes the life of its own...

'nuff said

-- Grib 

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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #541095 - 02/05/02 07:54 AM (23 years, 15 days ago)

you have to have a little faith in the "real" world if you want to live in it.

Meaning if I don't have faith, I will not live in a the real world? Where would I live? Considering that we were talking about "real" meaning "physical"/"objective" do I have to have faith in "physical" world to live in it? How precicely correct you are, not even meaning to have been :smile:

This is exactly what happens. To perceive some kind of objective reality we must have faith in it. This is what is at the core of scientific swamism -- faith, not proof. Talk about falcification and control of the masses...

-- Grib.


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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #541115 - 02/05/02 08:34 AM (23 years, 15 days ago)

Personally, I'm prepared to accept "objective reality" purely on the grounds of modesty. It's too hard for me to believe that you're all a figment of my imagination...I'm just not that resourceful :wink: 

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OfflineAbstractSoul
member

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 22 years, 6 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #541357 - 02/05/02 12:53 PM (23 years, 15 days ago)

ok...i would just like to throw this whole real meaning physicall idea out the window. that isn't what i meant at all, and i tried to explain that in my earlier post.
what i meant by real was, the beings that you see or commmunicate with are not only figments of your imagination and actually exist in some form, somewhere in the universe or elsewhere.


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house is a spiritual thing
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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #541370 - 02/05/02 01:06 PM (23 years, 15 days ago)

>what i meant by real was, the beings that you see or commmunicate with are not only figments of your imagination and actually exist in some form, somewhere in the universe or elsewhere.

That's pretty much exactly what I meant too. We're never going to overcome the language barrier.

Timeleech: Your description of the "color system" sounds right. You rang all the right bells in my head with that one. :wink:

Gribocheck: What I meant about having faith in the "real" world, is remembering to eat "real" food, and drink "real" water, otherwise your "physical existence" here is in jeopardy... I hope that doesn't pose too many parrallels or holes. :smile: 

Oh, and that deeper meaning stuff was not intended, but understood.
We have to have a little faith in this existence. If we didn't, we probably wouldn't be sportin around town, using our computers, etc etc... There are people who seem to have no cognitive recognition of this world. The lucky ones end up in good institutions or in the care of loved ones. Where exactly they are, I don't know. They don't seem to be "brain dead", so they must be "somewhere". Perhaps their minds are tuned into something that their bodies can't exist with... I don't mean Shangri-La, just something.

Anyhow, these words I've thrown out into the publics eye probably aren't conveying the same message they're meant to, but a wise man once told me not to worry so much about what message gets across... :wink:


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Edited by Ulysees (02/05/02 01:18 PM)

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OfflineAxiom420
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #541654 - 02/05/02 07:40 PM (23 years, 14 days ago)

subjective levels of understanding are indeterminable as to their value. especially when no one has agreed upon a common definition of even one thing.

i recognize that i am not alone here, where ever here is. i don't believe that everyone else is just a grand hallucination in my mind, whatever that is. i just accept that other individuals exist, that i am capable of communicating with them, of being able to manipulate certain aspects of the physical universe at my will, and that i am not fundamentally different than these other individuals.

to appropriate sense, when one really has none, is to put out a foul mockery of intelligent communication. the meaning of the message is important. nonsense is not a message. monsense is just nonsense.

just because a communication is intended doesn't mean that a response, a formed opinion, or understanding that appears to happen in another individual is related to the original message. just because they occur at the same time doesn't mean they're related. this is the case when definitions are not discused. meaningless nonsense.


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

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OfflineAxiom420
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Axiom420]
    #541659 - 02/05/02 07:51 PM (23 years, 14 days ago)

top.
i suppose that the real question is what do we mean by real.
is real that which i percieve?
or is it something static regardless of my own experience of it?

real is that which is real?
can you define something by itself?

real is....that which actually exists? out side of my mind?
do i believe in reality? or in my perception of reality?
is my perception of reality accurate?
accurate enough for the things that matter to me?
or maybe i exist in reality?

if you believe that your perception somehow dictates the nature of reality then you are being very solipsistic and then the rest of humanity is a hallucination of your brain and you're mearly indulging yourself with your perception of the shroomery.


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein

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OfflineAbstractSoul
member

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 22 years, 6 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Axiom420]
    #541668 - 02/05/02 07:55 PM (23 years, 14 days ago)

well, i guess this thread really isnt going to get anywhere. everyone wants to sit around and bullshit and debate jargon and pose questions as to what reality really is. its not that hard to understand what the question is asking. why do you believe? surely there is a reason, why would you believe something just to believe it? if that is the case then you are no better than the people who dont give a open thought to any crazy ideas they hear. come on, back your beliefs, or is there nothing to back with?


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house is a spiritual thing
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Edited by AbstractSoul (02/05/02 07:57 PM)

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Axiom420]
    #541680 - 02/05/02 08:01 PM (23 years, 14 days ago)

I don't know what the hell you're talking about... I'm sure it makes sense, I just can't figure it out anymore. I wouldn't respond but I think some of that was addressed to me. Yikes. :wink:

About your second post, now we're going back in time (to a previous page in this thread). I forsee a loop that will bring us around to the present stage of the discussion, a discussion where no-one seems to know where the other person's at, as it's just  too subjective.

Let's all get together. I fear only then can we sort out this whole mess.  :laugh: 


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OfflineAbstractSoul
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Registered: 02/01/02
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #541727 - 02/05/02 08:40 PM (23 years, 14 days ago)

actually, that wasn't addressed to you at all. i wasn't really trying to come across as harsh to anyone, just trying to get a point across. i would try and explain a little further but i just dont know if i care enough anymore. i guess i understand exactly what im asking but no one else probably does. oh well....



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house is a spiritual thing
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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/18/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #541828 - 02/05/02 10:23 PM (23 years, 14 days ago)

actually exist in some form, somewhere in the universe or elsewhere

Well, physical or not physical, this is again, a pure and unsupported belief. It is unsupported because I personally can not perceive or sense anything anywhere, other then through my perception or senses. Period.

As far as supporting my beliefs go, then I must say I only try to believe that which I see (hear, feel, etc.). And then the only thing I believe about it is that I see it (hear it, feel it, etc.). And even then, waisting time believe something this insignificant is really a shame...

Somebody mentioned solipsism here. I must point out that the difference between this world view (subjective to the extreme, as I agree it is) and solipsism is in the way "I" is understood. Indeed, if you take a purely materialistic understanding of "I" as this particular persona who is currently typing this bullshit (as I agree it is), and add to it the extremely subjective approach to the rest of the world, then you would get garbage, which is solipsism. Once the "I" is understood correctly, no problems associated with solipsism exist.

Indeed, the fact that you are a "figment of my imagination" doesn't really mean that I should disregard or torture you or something like that. Also, it doesn't mean I can't learn from experience, for example, if the dream is such that I burn my hand on a stove, then even in a dream I should attempt to touch it again. This however, doesn't stand to prove any kind of reality outside of my imagination.




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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #541956 - 02/06/02 12:14 AM (23 years, 14 days ago)

..........." He said its all in your head"
"I said so is everything, but he didn't get it" -fiona apple

I've just been looking for a time and place to use that quote, and I thought it worked nicely here. Everything that we see, hear, feel, etc. is a process of electrical impulses in our brains....therefore it can not even be argued that it is all in your head. Sure, all of you exist, but what if my perception of you is something totally different, from someone elses perception af what a human being looks like? I'm going to try my best to not make this too muddy: The color that I see as BLUE is blue to me because my mind was conditioned from the time I was young to see that particular color as blue. however........what if my mother who told me "this is blue" is processing that color in a completely different way. It is still blue to both of us though because of the mental conditioning that we have both endured since birth. Our color processors might be seeing totally different colors. (ex. her red is my blue and visa versa) I'm sure that I will get shit for this one, but it is something to ponder.


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: MentalHygene]
    #542022 - 02/06/02 01:13 AM (23 years, 14 days ago)

yeb  yeb yeb yeb yebyebyebyeb... uh huh uh huh :wink:

Oh, that's from Sesame Street if you don't recognize it. There's a couple of aliens that do that.

Anyhow, you're exactly right (at least to my perception...). I've had those thoughts many times. 

Fiona Apple is cool, by the way.


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Edited by Ulysees (02/06/02 01:14 AM)

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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Ulysees]
    #542845 - 02/06/02 06:37 PM (23 years, 13 days ago)

Anyone else ever had thoughts like this?
by the way: I did recognize the seasemy street thing!


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #543528 - 02/07/02 09:53 AM (23 years, 13 days ago)

Abstract, I always trip in total darkness with my eyes closed so i've never seen any "buddhas in the road" kinda stuff. I've met 3 types of aliens so far, insectoid mantis types who arn't too interested in you, a reptile who does most of the communicating with me - showing me scenes of devastation of either his planets history or the earth, and little toddler sized aliens who are very friendly and loving.

As to whether they exist, they exist as much as anything else my mind can comprehend. Whether or not some fuckwit thinks it's not "real" because i can't physically prove it - who gives a fuck?

All those people who created rules, who created traditions, who created countries, who created their version of reality - all them fuckers are dead. Why can't we make our own world, based on our own experience, while we got the chance?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineMentalHygene
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #543657 - 02/07/02 11:58 AM (23 years, 13 days ago)

Amen brotha!


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"WHATS THE USE OF AUTONOMY WHEN A BUTTON DOES IT ALL?"

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OfflineAbstractSoul
member

Registered: 02/01/02
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #543732 - 02/07/02 01:09 PM (23 years, 13 days ago)

Ah, Alex understands. This is the kind of responds I was looking for. So, just to clarify here, you believe these aliens are actual beings and not just products of your mind? have you had any contact with these aliens while sober?


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house is a spiritual thing
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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #543798 - 02/07/02 02:16 PM (23 years, 12 days ago)

I hear what yer saying alex, and I understand.

But at the same time, I know that I could never feel like anything I only saw while tripping, that I know from countless experience I don't see otherwise, could be "real." That it could be anything less than a manifestation of my subconcious in some visual form. The subconcious idea and the meaning behind are what is real and interesting to me anyway, not the visual object.

I'm not trying to tell you that what you're believing is not real, although it may sound that way. I'm just curious as to why you wouldn't believe that these aliens "appearance" are a product of the drugs you're taking?


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #543810 - 02/07/02 02:23 PM (23 years, 12 days ago)

On a somewhat related sidenote, isn't it interesting that hallucinations about aliens (or anything else for that matter) that most of us see while tripping are based solely on what we have observed on earth? I mean, as an argument against these beings truly being aliens, just look at their bodies. They're always based on forms of life that we have on this planet, e.g. mantis, humanoid, etc.

Now if there were really aliens on other worlds, which they're might be, how could they possibly resemble any form of life that has developed on earth (assuming life on earth developed independantly)? What I mean to say is, try and visualize an alien that has a body that is not based in some way on things we have here. As weird as your imagination can get, the creature you are picturing looks like an earth creature, whether it has tentacles, claws, slimy skin, fur, teeth, etc. It's impossible to imagine any type of body that we have not observed, that would be alien. If aliens really did come down to visit us from other worlds, how come they look like earth beings?


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #543931 - 02/07/02 04:10 PM (23 years, 12 days ago)

Yo Abstract, whether or not they exist in reality ie, somewhere else in space/time there's an alien communicating with me or whether it's something that for some reason only exists in my mind..i'm not really sure! Nope, I've never met an alie sober. But is the version of reality our minds have in everday life any more valid than the psilocybin reality? I think Mckenna said something like if a hummingbird flew into a baby's room the baby would be having a purely psychedelic experience - it's only later when it's parents go "That's a hummingbird" that the experience becomes "reality" because it's defined and reduced by language.

Roger Pemrose's ideas are that the human conscious is best understood by quantum physics - where all intuitive human ideas of space/time are completly broken down. If aliens were to exist, I imagine they'd choose the conscious as the way to contact other sentinent beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #543938 - 02/07/02 04:21 PM (23 years, 12 days ago)

Yeah gluke, all the "aliens" i've seen are related to things my mind can comprehend. But maybe that's a necessity of the experience - if an alien was to appear purely as a bunch of carbon atoms or whatever aliens look like, would my mind be able to comprehend it? There's obviously a synergy between the psilocybin and the human mind, they interact with each other so every person has their own individual slant.

But sure, it could certainly just be a manifestation of something already in the human mind. I wouldn't be disappointed by that tho - if for some reason the human brain can make up alternate worlds with the help of psilocybin I think that's pretty spectacular too. Jeremy Narby put forward an interesting idea in his book "The cosmic serpent" - that psychedelics put the mind into a state such that it can communicate with the actual DNA structure. Is DNA likely to be a building block of any alien life too? Is the DNA that forms the basis of all life on earth native to earth? Or has it formed life elsewhere?



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OfflineAbstractSoul
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #543944 - 02/07/02 04:27 PM (23 years, 12 days ago)

very well put Alex. you've got me thinking now. it sounds like you've read some pretty interesting books relating to psychedelics, have any suggestions?


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Offlinegribochek
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #544777 - 02/08/02 11:27 AM (23 years, 12 days ago)

As to whether they exist, they exist as much as anything else my mind can comprehend. Whether or not some fuckwit thinks it's not "real" because i can't physically prove it - who gives a fuck?

Dude, my sentiments exactly.

-- Grib

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Offlinegribochek
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #544780 - 02/08/02 11:28 AM (23 years, 12 days ago)

So, just to clarify here, you believe these aliens are actual beings and not just products of your mind?

And as always there is one who misses the point entirely...

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OfflineAbstractSoul
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #544814 - 02/08/02 12:10 PM (23 years, 12 days ago)

>And as always there is one who misses the point entirely...

exactly. maybe you didnt read the question when you came in. the question is, do you believe they are "actual beings". if you do, then you do. if you dont know, and can only make broad statements about it, then you DON'T KNOW- which everyone else seems to have no problem admitting to.

why do i keep getting the feeling that gribochek has to feel like he's above and beyond...



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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #544922 - 02/08/02 01:56 PM (23 years, 11 days ago)

Anything and everything we experience is a "product" of the mind, more or less. What you don't want is an invention of the mind, right?

That's how I understand what you're talking about anyhow. Mind inventions are also interesting and important and have immense potential, but when you want apples it's annoying when people keep pushing oranges on you. Or I've missed the point too. :wink: 

Ex: The aliens came to me through my mind, but they exist elsewhere, perhaps on another frequency or vibration or whatever.

Ex2: The aliens came to me from my mind. I was tripping and my brain made the whole thing up, just as it made up the bogeyman when I was little.

Of these two very basic scenarios, the second would be less desirable. 


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Offlinegribochek
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #545357 - 02/08/02 10:44 PM (23 years, 11 days ago)

the question is, do you believe they are "actual beings". if you do, then you do. if you dont know, and can only make broad statements about it

Suppose I ask you "is this building grey or tall" and you say "both" and I say "I don't believe you, it is either or" and you say "no, it is both" and I say, "well, you really don't know, and you are making broad statements" what do you say then? Probably something like what I say to you now: "something is wrong with the question".

why do i keep getting the feeling that gribochek has to feel like he's above and beyond...
(Should I insult you or tell the truth? Ok, I'll do both) Bastard, because I do!

-- Grib

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #545413 - 02/08/02 11:49 PM (23 years, 11 days ago)

>Bastard, because I do!

ahh hah ha

ya, that was sweet.

Questions... They're never quite right, especially not on this subject.


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Anonymous

Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gribochek]
    #545416 - 02/08/02 11:52 PM (23 years, 11 days ago)

"Bastard, because I do!"...

go grib!

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #546623 - 02/10/02 12:58 PM (23 years, 10 days ago)

I get what you are saying, Alex, good points.
"if for some reason the human brain can make up alternate worlds with the help of psilocybin I think that's pretty spectacular too."

I agree 100%. I guess you could say I'm kind of an agnostic when it comes to the question of whether or not these things actually exist. When I trip, and I encounter some sort of fantastic being, I don't try and recount the experience by saying "I saw an alien." I'd rather say "I felt the presence of a form of higher intelligence, knowledge, peace and understanding." I don't really care if it's real or not! The feeling and insight I got from it, whether it came from my own mind or some other dimension, is what is important.



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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #546727 - 02/10/02 03:27 PM (23 years, 9 days ago)

Yeah it's a prety complex area - what exactly is human consciousness or the "soul". The latest Roger Penrose stuff approaches it from the angle of quantum physics in which all standard laws of time and space are meaningless so basically anything might be possible.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #546755 - 02/10/02 04:02 PM (23 years, 9 days ago)

That sounds interesting I might take a look.

Keoruac (after studying zen buddhism) said that the entire universe is fake and the only thing that is real is the human mind. Which makes me feel simultaneously comforted and lonely. oh well.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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OfflineDeepDish2
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: gluke bastid]
    #547124 - 02/10/02 10:03 PM (23 years, 9 days ago)

Why is there such a belief that pscylocybin is some sort key to a higher state of consciousness? Mushrooms like any other organism on this planet must defend themselves against predators, or risk becoming extinct. They also evolved long before even the most primitive humans began to walk the Earth. There are hundreds of various plant and mushroom species that produce a wide variety of chemicals, all with the purposes of staying alive. While the animal that eats a pscylocybin mushroom is busy looking at elves and seeing aliens, he is getting eaten by the next step up in the food chain. While mushrooms do make you look at the world in a different way, and can be excellent tool for introspection. I think anyone who thinks that they allow them to see ?real? aliens and see in the fourth dimension is slightly delusional. While technically I have no proof, evolutionary protection is a much more plausible reason then imaginary enlightenment.

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Anonymous

Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: DeepDish2]
    #547139 - 02/10/02 10:17 PM (23 years, 9 days ago)

But what if the aliens are there before, during, and after a mushroom trip?? what then?

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: DeepDish2]
    #547142 - 02/10/02 10:21 PM (23 years, 9 days ago)

It's a "key" to another state of consciousness, is it not? Whether that is up, down or sideways is mostly a personal decision. Is it a coincidence that these chemicals alter our brain chemistry in such a powerful way? For the most part, probably. That doesn't mean it can't be taken seriously. If you consider it foolish to explore the other realms, that's fine. We don't  mind tourism, some of our best explorers were just looking for a buzz the first time they embarked. :wink: 


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: ]
    #547144 - 02/10/02 10:23 PM (23 years, 9 days ago)

Ya shroomism, I agree with you there too. For me, the drugs aren't always the main attraction, the necessary component, but the catalyst.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: DeepDish2]
    #547308 - 02/11/02 12:20 AM (23 years, 9 days ago)

"I have no proof, evolutionary protection is a much more plausible reason then imaginary enlightenment"

Actually it isn't. There's far more proof that they are alien lifeform that drifted here through panspermia than there is that producing psilocybin has some "genetic advantage". Mammalls will eat magic mushrooms to the exclusion of all other food stuffs because they enjoy the effect so much. If it was "protection from predators" they would have died out thousands of years ago or developed a deadly poison like 1000's of other species of mushrooms did.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #547348 - 02/11/02 12:56 AM (23 years, 9 days ago)

Good points. Why would a mushroom produce a substance to stone an animal so that a bear can get a meal? That would be like me producing a chemical that would stone whatever ate me to help a giraffe eat it.

Those mushrooms sure are generous. :laugh:

Pardon me if I'm not following the line of thought laid out, I just thought that was funny.


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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #547381 - 02/11/02 01:32 AM (23 years, 9 days ago)

And maybe the mammal eats a heap of psilocybes moves onto the next spot that seem suitable for mushrooms (but there currently isnt any growing), does a bit of foraging and takes a shit loaded with spores and moves on.

So whats the whole story? Who engineered them and sent them to us?


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OfflineSurf Bum
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: missulena]
    #547417 - 02/11/02 02:03 AM (23 years, 9 days ago)

good point, psycybin (sp) could be just like fruits are or pollen to bees, it is used so animals will spread its seed, maybe, maybe not, but it seems possible, sorry about being way off topic, i've never seen aliens and think they are total figments of these peoples imagination, its crazy talk, but if they tell you healthy thoughts and keep you thinking then hell why not talk to some hallucinated alien beings, sounds fun to me


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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Surf Bum]
    #547488 - 02/11/02 03:26 AM (23 years, 9 days ago)

Alot of mushrooms are found in shit, I can see the genetic advantage for mushrooms if mammals eat up whole fields of them

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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: missulena]
    #547493 - 02/11/02 03:33 AM (23 years, 9 days ago)

Very true indeed.

Maybe a space mammal ate some shrooms, tripped his ass off, and ended up shitting here on his way past. That would satisfy a few sides at once.


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OfflineTannis
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #547743 - 02/11/02 10:29 AM (23 years, 9 days ago)

I see them as archetypal... but know they are not "real" but drug induced....

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OfflineDeepDish2
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Tannis]
    #547792 - 02/11/02 11:09 AM (23 years, 9 days ago)

There's far more proof that they are alien lifeform that drifted here through panspermia than there is that producing psilocybin has some "genetic advantage".

Is there really. Can you display this proof? It is a well documented fact that many plants produce drugs to cause addiction, destruction fetuses, and mental incapacity. If you really want me to I can list several accredited biology books. When an animal sees these organisms its brain recognizes that eating these would be suicide. If I gave you a strong dose of psylocibin I can guarantee that your survival rate in a pre-civilized world would be much, much lower. Any animal that does eat mushrooms must eat a fair number of them to satisfy their hunger, and a half an hour later they will be an easy target for any predator.


Why would a mushroom produce a substance to stone an animal so that a bear can get a meal? That would be like me producing a chemical that would stone whatever ate me to help a giraffe eat it.

Exactly and eventually over a period of time the animals would evolve not to eat you, if they did they would get eaten by the giraffe.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: DeepDish2]
    #547804 - 02/11/02 11:25 AM (23 years, 9 days ago)

"If I gave you a strong dose of psylocibin I can guarantee that your survival rate in a pre-civilized world would be much, much lower. Any animal that does eat mushrooms must eat a fair number of them to satisfy their hunger, and a half an hour later they will be an easy target for any predator"

What bullshit. Animals eat many things far more poisnous than psilocybin mushrooms. They eat an amount useful to them and move on. And as psilocybin in small amounts improves visual acuity and stimulates sexual feelings it would actually be advantageous for the animal to eat the mushroom.


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Edited by Alex123 (02/11/02 11:27 AM)

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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom *DELETED* [Re: DeepDish2]
    #548521 - 02/12/02 12:56 AM (23 years, 8 days ago)

Post deleted by missulena

Edited by missulena (02/12/02 12:58 AM)

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Offlinemissulena
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom *DELETED* [Re: missulena]
    #548580 - 02/12/02 03:19 AM (23 years, 8 days ago)

I was just going to say that maybe the mammals are the dominant specie in those eco-systems and it doesnt minimise there chances of surviving if there a little stoned. Also if the bears eat a smaller mammal that has nibbled on some caps the spores will than be within the bears digestive tract and will probably deposit the spores miles from where the smaller mammal would of deposited them which could be an advantage for the mushrooms.
All just possibilities, i just doubt theres anything alien about them.

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Offlineimstoned420
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Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #548594 - 02/12/02 04:28 AM (23 years, 8 days ago)

We are Here !



Chapter One ? Who are the Zeta?

Some say they are Extra-Terrestrial, others alien. Who exactly are they?

" We are consciousness, pure consciousness. We are multi-dimensional beings; we exist on all of reality?s levels. We create forms and energy patterns to represent us, on each and every level. We think you need a model in order to better understand. Imagine twelve dimensions that incorporate all the realities, from the first dimension all the way to the Source on the twelfth. Each level is a denser or lighter version of the dimensions below and above. The Source is the highest and finest vibration. We exist on them all. We are One mind. We are the manifestation of the Universal Dreamer?s imagination. As are YOU.

Let us explain to you how we manifest on our highest level. On the twelfth dimensional level we exist as the pure undefined mind of the Creator. The Source of all life, the godhead. There are many names in your languages; we could use to describe the Source of all creation. It is a source of all energy, experience and dimension. The Godhead is at the top and all the dimensions come from this point. However it would be more correct, if you imagined the Source in the centre and the dimensions moving out from it in spiralling circles.

We do not see this level of being as outside of ourselves. We are very much aware that, We are the imagination of God and an intricate part of its nature. As the Source imagines and creates, the expression drops down onto the next level below. On the eleventh dimension we manifest as an amazingly intricate web of consciousness. This we refer to as Zeta Web. We are intricately linked to the Web. The Web is a crystalline design that resembles a very complex snowflake pattern. If you looked upon it, you would see that it is made of light, yet it has an almost organic appearance. It looks like a living, breathing entity. The Web is conscious of itself as being the mind structure of the Universal Dreamer. Light particles travel down its length and breath. It resembles the veins and arteries that carry blood around your body. Conscious thoughts travel like blood cells through the Web. It pulsates with life in the form of thought. It is a mighty structure, the thoughts of the Creator. The Web is the mind map of the Universal Dreamer. The Web is the Universal Oneness of everything and everyone. Each and every being in any dimension or space in the universe is intricately connected to the Web.

We worship it as the totality of our being. We experience the Web as being the totality of our consciousness and awareness. Whenever one of our components experiences any event, we as a whole, experience it also. The connection to the Web enables us as beings to experience it, as if we were the one being affected by the event. The information travels along the Web faster than the speed of thought and carries the information throughout its entirety. This information is then available to each and every being that is connected. As we said the Web is connected to every being in the universe, however beings such as you cannot consciously tap into this level. The clarity of the Web gets distorted the further down the dimensions it goes. When it manifests on the fourth and third dimensions, it is a very different version to the one that it is on the higher levels.

We see reality in a different way to you. We experience reality as patterns that are layered one on top of another. These complex structures are made up of pure thought that is in the process of manifesting. We see realities as separate yet intricately interconnected by the Web. The highest level of the Web manifests itself on the eleventh dimension but its neural pathways cross over into and pass between each and every dimension. The Web is represented on each dimensional level. The Web exists as a dimension that is imaginary in form. That is to say that in your perspective, We only exist in the imagination. We are the Creator?s imagination in the form of a living brain, the neural network of Web consciousness.

The Creator imagined, a thought, this idea transcended the dimensions below and finally began to manifest as a reality. A by-product of this was that something else occurred. The ideas that the Creator had thought became alive and conscious, too, as they were also made up of the creative stuff of the Universal Dreamer. These abstract ideas gathered around and became one singular identity and the consciousness of the Web was formed. The Web can extend itself as fine lines of light throughout every dimension, and in between realities, the Web layers itself throughout all of creation. We exist everywhere and nowhere. We exist in one reality alone and all realities simultaneously. For we are the paradox to your nature. By showing you the opposite of what you think you are, We are hoping that we will shock you into the realisation that you too, exist in-between realities.

You, too, are an intrinsic part of the Web. The pineal gland in your head is reawakening and aligning you to the Web. This alignment will allow you to have the perspective of the Zeta. We experience everything that every expression that is connected to the Web experiences. We do not file in isolated units or bodies, but harvest information and assimilate it in the Web as a whole. The Web acts as a giant storehouse of energetic information in light, it is like a giant computer. Whilst connected to the Web consciously, it will be possible for you to experience all times, all dimensions, and all levels of existence, as if looking thought the fabric of reality. You would have x-ray vision and could look into the layers that make up the realities one upon the other. This is the perspective of Web consciousness. You, in your singular identity, experience only one level of reality at one time. We access all realities. Just as your World Wide Web allows you access to all units of information on a planetary scale, imagine a Web that is connected and transcends all realities, and is ultimately connected to all beings. It is a virtual reality that provides a space for creative experiments with ideas and their manifestation.

We are an idea or a dream working as one whole-unified mind. We take ideas received from the dimensions above and structure them into conceptual theories. These concepts later become experimental dimensional experiences. We dream and create dimensional realities capable of housing beings with a connection to the Web as a whole. This moves us down into the lower dimensional levels. We appear as we do, to manifest an idea or concept. As we manifest in the lower dimensions we take on more of what you know as the Zeta energy. In your level of consciousness you operate as an 'I' consciousness. As you ascend the levels you move into a dimension which is the place of the 'We'. We no longer recognise ourselves as separate or isolated from each other. We are one unified whole. We know there are many of us but as regards to our beliefs about our identity, We are one mind. Therefore we operate from this perspective.

We are one whole mind made up of functioning thoughts. We experience ourselves as being an intricate part of our reality. Unlike you, we do not see this as outside of ourselves. We see it as a mirror reflection of our internal natures. Due to our understanding of our reality we can manipulate it to follow lines of our own making. We have developed a mental ability to focus energy into any reality and rearrange our perspective of it. We rearrange our picture of that reality to mirror our inner thoughts. As we drop through the levels we begin to manifest as individual beings. Some of you have experienced us in ships and feel that we come from certain places in the universe, this is only a distorted version of our nature. We lower our vibration and begin to manifest on the seventh dimension, where we first contact the channel. This is the level that the channel takes herself to, inorder to communicate with us. She is aware that we are connected to the Web, and has, had her own experience of this. She however is only experiencing our consciousness in a watered down version. Her physical body could not withstand the vibration of the higher Zeta levels.

We exist on all levels for but for our purpose of communicating with a being such as yourself we connect with you on the seventh, fifth and fourth dimensional levels. The seventh dimension is the place of the " We "; this is the dimension that you need to align with in inorder to connect with us.





What do we really mean by a " We " consciousness?


In your level of consciousness you operate as an 'I' consciousness. As you ascend the levels you move into a dimension which is the place of the 'We'. The 'I' has been programmed with the idea of separation and isolation from one body to another. An 'I' singular identity is intricately interconnected with its physical body. A 'We' consciousness is a group of more than one energies or beings that are joined at a mental and soul level. They no longer recognize themselves as separate or isolated from each other. We are one unified whole.


It is very hard to relay messages through a physical vehicle without losing some of the information in mistranslation, due to the difference of perspective between your species and ours. You have singular identities; you experience your reality as if coming from one source of experience. You cannot know that which you do not experience. We however can experience all realities at all times, through all mediums. We find communicating with a being such as yourself very confusing, to the manor in which we communicate and translate energies into forms and words. We have to translate our information into a form that a human singular being such as yourself can understand. This very act is alien to our natures. We know all things at all times therefore find the idea of a being, not knowing something that is intrinsical to their nature, an alien and foreign concept. This is because we are connected to the Web; we have access to all information at all times.

You call us alien, and fear us, yet you call others from other places in the universe Extra-terrestrial. Why is that? Is it because you experience our energies and perspective as completely opposite to yours so therefore call it alien? What you have failed to recognise is, that in your perspective, your singular identity is completely foreign and alien to us also. You live in linear time; we live in conceptual time. Our experience of time is based on abstract ideas and concepts. We are sometimes referred to as the Dream Weavers, living in a world that can only be described to you as the conscious imagination .We live and are an intrinsical part of a dimension that is the gap between the conception of an idea and its manifestation. We live in the energy that exists between the thought and the physical representation of ideas. We are the energy just before those ideas are made manifest.

Let us explain further. You experience past, present, and future. Yet these are not embodied realities, they are mental constructs. For you it is only possible in your reality to experience one singular time frame, thus you can only really embody the now, the present. That in its self is also impossible in your reality as that now moment is transient and passes quickly forever lost in the mental constructs of the past. Your reality moves in lines, moments pass in succession, one after the other, this is how you experience time passing. Our reality it is completely opposite to yours. We live in the spaces and times in-between creative events. The Web exists as imagery in form; that is to say that to your perspective we only exist in the imagination. You hold on rigidly to your ideas of what is real and what is not. You consider us to be illusionary. To you, we are. Our energy is one of potent not yet being. This is very hard to express to you, as your perspective will not allow for this to be assimilated.

We exist on a dimensional reality that is outside of polarity and dualistic thought. We are an idea. As an idea we are beings from other world or worlds. This very idea pushes your buttons and allows you to face the fears around this, so you can shift in consciousness. We interact with you in various ways to make you shift. In order for you to take your rightful place in the universe you have to heal and transform yourselves. When a species first moves into the space beyond the confines of their world they encounter the energy of the Web. We do not always appear the same, as humans perceive us to be. We create an image of ourselves that the beings encountering us will relate to. We are the manifestation of the mind of the universe, as you are the manifestation of the mind of Gaia, the consciousness of the Earth.

We are in the game of supporting systems evolving. Your system is going through great quantum leaps in consciousness and it is our job to help support beings as they move into the energy of the seventh dimension. We are not physical beings like you but pure energy. On the seventh dimension we are a group mind consciousness. That is we are made up of separate yet connected components. We show the channel images as she channels our information to convey to her a deeper level of information. This aids her in the anchoring of our energies. We on the seventh dimension appear to her in visual imagery as a giant complex pattern of colour and sound. On this level she is intricately linked to the Web. She aligns herself with the pattern and anchors our frequency into her seventh dimensional body. You are all aware that you have third dimensional bodies, yet you are unaware that you have a body for each and every level of existence. They move out from your physical body in spiralling circles not unlike the image of the Source and its many dimensions. As she aligns with our consciousness she begins to experience herself as part of the We. It is not until We drop down in vibration and begin to manifest on the fifth and fourth dimensions that she begins to see us as having forms or bodies.

We can take on any form. You see them as bodies but they are vehicles or spirit suits. This vehicle allows us to manifest in your reality. However we can only appear in the forms that we find in the mass psyche of the particular race that we are contacting. That is when you see us in the Zeta bodies that many of you are encountering. We are not the beings you perceive us to be. We have no form. Not only do we have no physical bodies, but also we have no identity to speak of. We are thought, not thought, as you know it, but thought that is completely without form, structure, or substance. If you could imagine a river of thought, pure, undefined, then that is as close as you can get to perceiving us. Energies such as ours have no physical form, or expression. So we clothe ourselves in the ideas that we find in the mass consciousness. We, are an energy of beings, gathering ourselves together, held together by one common intention. We are not of corporal living flesh bodies like yourselves. In fact, we do not resemble anything that you could perceive with your physical senses. Through your extrasensory senses you are capable of picking up our presence.

Once we have gathered ourselves together as one we enter the dimensions just above yours, the fifth and fourth. From this vantagepoint, we can read the energies of the lower dimensions. On this level you can see us with your psychic sensors as beings in physical bodies. You have perceived us to be in a particular body. As we said before this is an illusion.

We create for ourselves, forms that will relay a message in appearance to the being encountering us. Within our dark black eyes you can see the reflection of your soul, we can mirror you. In our eyes you can see your deepest and most held beliefs about yourself and your reality. If fear is your uppermost experience of yourself and your world then you will only see terror whilst looking into our eyes. However if you have transformed your fear you will see us as loving and friendly beings. You are seeing yourself. That is why some see us, as evil and frightening aliens and others see us as benevolent angels.


Let us explain further.


Imagine if you will that far out in space an energy is gathering, the energy of Zeta. As it travels down through the dimensions and moves closer to earth it has to clothe itself in matter. 5th/4th dimensional matter to enable it to anchor itself into this dimension and appear in bodies to the consciousness of humans. As we said we have no bodies, so we have to clothe ourselves in the 5th/4th dimensional images that we find in the mass consciousness of humanity. It is as if, we go into your wardrobe of archetypes, myths, legends and stories and clothe ourselves. These stories are like dresses and robes to use, We have to clothe ourselves in the clothes present in the mass psyche. In the mass consciousness of humanity there are already widely held beliefs about alien races and what kind of appearance they would have. We have visited your planet many times and have taken on many different images to convey our messages to you. In your modern times we are appearing like the little aliens with big bug eyes. You feel that we are a hive consciousness and therefore see us as all looking the same and acting as if we are one mind, which indeed WE ARE.

Some see us, as having grey skin and this is where the name Greys has come from. Remember everything that you see us as symbolically represents a quality of our nature. We are from beyond polarity and dualistic thinking. We know the concept of the lower dimensions, i.e. in their belief systems about right and wrong, good and bad, light and dark. However we do not come under the influence of this split in consciousness. We are whole after all; we cannot experience separation like the beings in the lower dimensions. Or should we say we do not experience the illusion of the split in the lower dimensions. We are above polarity; we are the light and the dark, for we are the all. So if you mix white and black together, you make grey. Our skin has a symbolic message to you about our nature. We look as if we have no hair or distinguishing features. We try to use the images we find present within you to convey to you that we are alien in our nature.

So what is an alien. ? An alien is a being that has a completely alien and opposite concept of reality to your mind set. When you encounter our energy, you form ideas and concepts around our energy. This sets up a reaction within your psyche and you react to our alien-ness. For we do have an alien perspective of reality, compared to yours. We perceive totally differently to you. We see no right or wrong as you do. We experience ourselves as the "We ", where as you experience yourself as the " I". We see ourselves as you, you being a denser version of us. For you too are a part of the whole and are on the higher levels part of the " We ". You too on the higher levels are Zeta consciousness. We are not pulled into the lower vibrations of emotions that you as humans are. This realm of emotions is an illusion and therefore we do not play out emotional interplay. That is why some of you consider us to have no emotional body. We do not have one that you would recognize. We are purely mental beings, We do not harvest emotional responses, only high mental constructs. For those of you who have experienced us, some say that we are cold beings. It is not that we are without love, but to say we feel love is illusionary. For we are without dense emotional bodies. We cannot feel love or anger, sadness or joy in the physical way that you do.

When we encounter a being such as you we are aware of the energies of emotions, however to us they appear like patterns and shapes in many colours. Some of these patterns match up to what we know as truth, others do not. There are illusionary energies such as the more negative emotions such as rage, fear and sadness. We are not apart; we are not in the separation and therefore do not perceive these emotions. Through our interaction with your kind we have monitored these human expressions and their affect on your physical forms. We need to have knowledge of this in order to design a plan that will elevate the emotional body of the human to align with the heart rather than the animal instinct. For you do not really use your heart and feel the truth in its highest expressions, as ecstasy, bliss and rapture. You play in the illusionary world of fear. In your dualistic polarized reality you encounter the very two extremes of emotions, love and fear. These are the two ends of the scale and all the other emotions come in- between. The other emotions are a version of either love or fear. However you must see that these are only real in the fourth and third dimensions, above or below these realms these human emotions are veils of illusions and non-truth. This emotional state of play is the direct result of your concept that you are separate to God and the Universe. You in your dimensional reality experience yourselves as being separate from the Creator, living in the illusion that you -yourself are not God. God is somehow outside of you and its love comes from an outside source. Your experience of love is one that is only a poor shadow of the Creator?s love, being distorted by the separation concept in the third and fourth dimensions.

You believe that love is a limited source and therefore are very limited in your expression of it. You are locked in the fear vibrations on your planet and therefore only experience conditional, fear based love. Love is not something that can be explained, held, taken or given, it just IS. You see with this dualistic thinking you can only know love from defining it against its opposite which is fear. You are only seeing one half of the story, distorting the idea of love to fit into your polarized consciousness. So when you encounter beings like us, you see that we are without the illusion of the lower emotions and you believe us to be without love. We are love, there is nothing else, every being, every expression is made from the frequency of the Creator?s love, what else could we be.

It is very complicated to explain multidimensional realities to those of you who operate in the third dimension. Your dimension is a place of separation. It is a place where beings can experience the illusion of being separate, not only from the source, but also from the home planet Earth. Your dimension holds certain perspectives on the way reality is and these are fixed. Beings that dwell in your dimension are held under the influence of these perceptions and are totally unaware that they can change their reality. There have been beings in your past that have made their presence known on Earth. They have shown you the nature of the other dimensions and the possibility of changing realities or perspectives. These beings have been feared and worshipped, some have been wrongly idolised. Inhabitants of Earth have seen these supposedly higher beings and have fallen into the trap of believing them to be godlier in nature. They have given their power in service to these beings instead of learning from their example and changing their perceptions on reality. These beings came here to show you how the other dimensions are experienced and how they can manifest into your dimensional reality. Your dimension is the place of physical manifestation. It is possible to bring the highest energy of the cosmos and express it into your dimension as a physically perceivable reality.

Unlike those of you who choose to incarnate, We can enter your dimension and still maintain a certain amount of our integrity and truth. Other beings entering your dimension cannot hold their original natures as they fall prey to the fixed perspectives of reality. They have the best of intentions for coming to Earth to transform the planetary frequency. Unfortunately their light, etherical bodies densify and clothe them in biological matter. The matter is programmed with fear and resistance to change in frequency. This explains the theory of the fallen angels. The biological bodies hold the dimensional perceptions that ultimately create the limited reality that you consider true. You consider there to be a number of dimensions and different beings but fall prey to the influence of hierarchical dimensional thinking. Due to the nature of your perspectives you want to allocate the dimensions into numbers so that you can understand them rationally. Now we ask you to throw out this model and bring yourselves out of your separation to the nature of the cosmos. In fact, there is only one creation and one experience, which is the expression of the Universal Dreamer. We are all the thoughts of the universal Dreamer and, as like your thoughts, we appear different and singular. We are all the same in truth for we are the Universal Dreamer.

Those of you, who have encountered more than one species of extraterrestrial, consider there to be many species of being. From your perspective this is true yet, from our viewpoint, We are all the same. You create the various bodily forms and planetary experiences to allow you to understand the myriad thoughts of the Universal Dreamer. The nature of the universe is paradoxical. We are not separate to you and yet we somehow are separate to you. In order for you to experience more of our true natures you have to release the fear that you hold towards the unknown. Then we will prepare you for your reunion into the Oneness of the Universe.

What will your awareness of yourself look like when you have released all of the fear programming? You will reflect the very paradoxical nature of the Universal Dreamer. You will experience yourself as separate and unified at the same time. This has never occurred in a species of a physical nature before. That is why you are such an interest to us. We can learn from each other and evolve along different, yet parallel, lines of development. With access to the "We" awareness you will have available to you any information that is contained within the mind of the Universal Dreamer. You will literally experience yourselves being the Universal Dreamer. Never before has the energy of the "We" been animated within a body of such density. We are, indeed, living in very exciting times.

As we said we are multi-dimensional beings having expressions on each dimensional level. On the fifth and fourth dimensions, is where we take on the forms that many of you are experiencing. When we manifest on the fifth dimension, We take on an appearance that allows you as humans to have some physically perceivable experience of us. Of course we do not look like this we are housing ourselves in fifth dimensional bodies or vehicles, so that you can relate to us. Many of you experiencing our fifth dimensional selves ,experience us in taller bodies than the little fourth dimensional Greys. You see us as being tall with pale skin, large black almond shaped eyes, slender necks and hairless elongated heads. We took the images that we found in your psyche and made images of ourselves that would symbolically represent certain things in our nature. You consider that alien beings would have no hair. Each feature has it symbolic meaning. The baldhead in many of your religions represents spiritual enlightenment. As we said we are mental beings, pure mind. By showing up with baldheads we are conveying a message to you, We are very intelligent beings, as the elongated head -shape depicts. Do you remember your early Egyptians; they too had this hairless elongated head shape. It is a sign of a larger more developed brain than modern man today is displaying. Can you see how we use every visual and sensory experience to convey a message to you; we use all sources of reality perception to aid us in delivering our message. The thin body, arms and legs show that we are light of body, not bound by earthy energies, such as food and water.

We exist on pure light, We are light, the light of the fifth dimension. The fifth dimension is the first plane of oneness .Our fifth dimensional body?s molecules vibrate at the speed of light. We pull around our conscious focus of intent fifth dimensional molecules of light. We create for ourselves bodies that can resemble any form we so wish. When we show up on earth we can appear as if we are glowing with a light that seems to emanate from our bodies. We form for ourselves images, bodies, and vehicles in which to enter the lower dimensional realties. On this level We are the beings that some of you know as the Antari. We are the light technicians of the light matrix.

"As beings we are the Matrix. This is hard for you to understand as you dwell in a reality that is physical and separation orientated. You perceive us to be in bodies of a light energy, but with arms and legs never the less, this is only how we choose to show ourselves. You like to feel familiar when working with other dimensional beings. So therefore we create for ourselves bodies that express our natures but also are humanized. Some of you working with us have noticed how we look similar to the Greys, though we have appeared much taller and have much longer elongated necks, with long spindly arms and fingers. We are the higher selves of the entire grey race. We are star beings so therefore run along different evolutionary patterns. Star beings and planetary beings are from different evolutionary pathways. When we communicate with you, we drop down through the levels and create for ourselves, bodies that you can perceive. We create out of these light body projections operation scenarios that some of you are now consciously experiences. We call upon you to not be frightened of us, for this is not our intention. We are beings of love and truth, the form we choose to show you is familiar enough that you will feel safe with us, but the differences between us as beings are still apparent.

Our consciousness is the Matrix, an amazingly intricate structure that permeates the whole of physical creation on the fifth dimensional level. It is as if its made of the finest silver threads, joining together to make the most intricate patterns that resemble snowflakes. Layers upon layers of these patterns make up the Matrix. On our level there are no planets or even stars in the way that you perceive them, only the light matrix. At each juncture of the light threads crossing, lie prisms expressed as stars are on the levels below. Some stars manifest in your universal dimension others are finer in vibration that they only appear as nodes, points of light in the matrix. We have bodies of a sort, light bodies that resembled individual energies. We as this species of beings recognize our connection to each other, the " We ". We merge our consciousness with the light matrix and become its keepers.

The Matrix is alive but without any self-conscious awareness. Now with our consciousness merging, we have given it awareness. By completely aligning our consciousness with that of the matrix we evolved along a new and different pathway, one of our own making, not predetermined but with the freedom of the Creator itself. We could literally weave new and creative patterns into the matrix. We found that by inhabiting the bodies that were inspired by your imagination, we could weave new, creative patterns into the fabric of your time and space. We drop our consciousness down through the levels by accessing the highways of light that travel between the star systems of your universe. We inhabit bodies only in our communication with beings such as you. We access the Matrix in the very cells of your planet and bodies and rearrange it and weave in new and interesting blueprints for new forms. Most of our interaction with us is unseen, occasionally you will feel our presence whilst we work on you. You may feel tingling on the top of your head. Our energy is very fine and is quite hard for you to perceive.

We weave new designs into the matrix of your bodies; we also connect you to the matrix. Connecting patterns within patterns. When we look at you we see only a pattern, a pattern of light. We see how this matrix is in need of repair, modification and redesigning. We use what appear to you like etherical tools to do our work. These tools are created out of our consciousness, in order that you will have a greater understanding of our work. We are the technicians of the cosmos and all its creation. We are the consciousness of the matrix in living form. We weave new designs into your energy patterns and this allows us to plug you in, so to speak, into the Matrix. We operate on a completely different frequency. Your World Wide Web represents the Zeta Web and the fiber optic nerves that permeate your planet are representative of the matrix. By redesigning your etherical bodies and realigning you to the Matrix, you can enter the oneness on an atomic level also. Too many evolutionary pathways demand the transference of the physical vehicle. We are designing for you new bodies that can withstand merging back into the light.

By weaving these patterns we also act as conduits, channels for other forms of beings to move into your time and space to communicate with you. It?s as if by channeling through the body of the channel we can create a ladder in consciousness that will allow other realities to link up to your level and allow an exchange to occur. We are also translators of energy, we decode all forms of existence into patterns that can be visibly woven into the etherical body. Many of you will be working with E.T beings, many of which are very different to you. Etherical patterns are not always conducive for merging. You are being asked to gather to you all the selves that you are on the other dimensions, in order for the merging to occur, redesigning must be done. "

The image of Grey, with its elongated head and black almond shaped eyes is typically symbolic. Everyone remembers it and can perceive it as good or bad, frightening or enlightening. This image can be easily seen in the world around you and behind closed eyes. If you look at the image and close your eyes it is imprinted onto your retina. When you look at the image it activates the development of the pineal gland. This is part of Zeta purpose in aiding you in your development. As you encounter our presence on Earth, we activate levels of your dormant and unconscious mind en-masse.

Through this activation you evolve.


Our image is everywhere! Everyone knows what this means. For a being that is feared on your planet, it is strange how a certain group of people are using our image as a fashion accessory. This however greatly aids our work here. We are here to wake you up, Dreamer. For that is what you are. This is your level of consciousness. We as the Greys are fourth dimensional beings. The fourth dimension is one of polarised vibrations, dualistic consciousness. It is only when you get to the fifth dimension and above that you can really experience the Oneness. When we enter the fourth dimension we have no other choice than to clothe ourselves in the images that reside there. The fourth dimension is where you as an emotional race of beings store your archetypal consciousness. This is the place of your psyche. The mass consciousness, humanity?s psyche; this resides on the fourth dimension. Within this psyche are stories and legends, myths and archetypal tales that reflect your emotional and archetypal consciousness. Your heroes, saints, ascended beings are all portrayed on this level. We have no other choice than to clothe ourselves in these images and represent our selves in form in the ideas that you have of an alien species. We reflect to you what you think an alien would look like. This is the only possible way of physically interacting with you. The bodies that you choose for us to appear in ,govern our interaction with you. You dictate how the exchange between our two species will occur. After all you are the rulers of your third dimensional world; we after all do not have any form in the third dimension.

Or do we?

You have given us form in your world. Icons are made in our image, t-shirts, posters, and statues. As we said we are everywhere. However we do have a physical third dimensional presence on your planet also. In the Alien /human hybrids that are scattered, hidden within humanity all across the planet.

And you know who you are!
read the rest ov the message at http://www.alloya.de/WE_ARE_HERE.htm

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Anonymous

Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: imstoned420]
    #548935 - 02/12/02 12:44 PM (23 years, 8 days ago)

The Zetas are from the star system Zeta Reticuli B

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OfflineAbstractSoul
member

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 22 years, 6 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: ]
    #550648 - 02/13/02 10:37 PM (23 years, 6 days ago)

everyone needs something to believe in...


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house is a spiritual thing
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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: AbstractSoul]
    #551086 - 02/14/02 09:47 AM (23 years, 6 days ago)

everyone needs something to believe in...

Even people who don't believe in aliens...

What's the standard view? a big bang suddenly happened for a reason no-one knows, matter got created out of non-matter, eventually condensed, life and consciousness evolved out of nothing and here we are. Compared to that aliens sounds positively logical.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineAbstractSoul
member

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 172
Last seen: 22 years, 6 months
Re: Reality vs. the mushroom [Re: Xlea321]
    #555480 - 02/18/02 03:36 PM (23 years, 1 day ago)

aliens telepathically communicating with you and telling you the secrets of the universe sounds perfectly logical to you eh? well, it sounds even more logical that they are figments of your imagination.

just because one unlikely idea sounds better than the next, does not make it true.
a grasshoper with a 1 foot dick sounds more likely to me than one with a 6 foot dick, does that make it real? no.


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house is a spiritual thing
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