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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22405707 -

Hatred is not a recommended emotion for anyone.
I am sorry you have been subject to it.

And Belief is not a recommended way to find 'objective' truth,
hence, for example, as you already know, good pharmaceutical drug trials are double blind studies, with both controls and enormous sample sizes.

That folks identify with all kinds of things would seem to me part of the reason to open the doors of perception, and begin to dis-identify
with all the changing contents of intangible awareness.

This sounds good but I have no idea of how the worlds problems can be solved.

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: laughingdog]
    #22406360 -

Not just self defense. It advocates killing persecutors, but doesn't specify what type of persecution leaving open the possibility of sanctioned murder for perceived offenses. It advocates taxing non-Muslims which is an oppressive act with the threat of violence which is stated implicitly. Idolaters are to be slain unless they repent. It advocates sex with those who have been taken as slaves (by violence or threat of violence), which doesn't preclude forcing the act which is rape (violence). It advocates temperance, except when dealing with polytheists who are to be slain wherever they are found (not exactly invoking a defensive act).The Koran makes clear that non-believers are not to be treated as equals, and it could be easily argued in this PC world that such notions are preludes to violence. Beyond the book itself (it's just a book) we have the actions of Muhammad. He was a bandit who turned warlord, raped and pillaged in offensive wars and this legacy was carried on by his family members long after he supposedly flew to heaven on a magic horse.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #22407290 -

DividedQuantum said:
I would have to back up Nature-lad on this.  I studied the Koran for a time, years ago, and when the verses in question are read in the proper context out of which they were intended to be read -- with an understanding of the Arabic from which it was translated -- the Koran actually prohibits aggression in general, and allows fighting only in self-defense.

It's hard to get good info on this these days, but I try to be objective about this and the above seems to be the truth.


Thankyou! Finally someone who understands the importance of context.


--------------------
_____________________________________________________
I have a relationship with nature.
I make love to her, but is it enough?
I solemnly swear to love her everyday.
_____________________________________________________
I squashed a dragonfly and saw it writhing in pain.
Ayahuasca taught me to feel what others do.
I felt what it felt in that instance.
I felt disgusted. I partially hate myself for it.
I think Im turning vegan, man.

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Rahz]
    #22407338 -

Rahz said:
Not just self defense. It advocates killing persecutors, but doesn't specify what type of persecution leaving open the possibility of sanctioned murder for perceived offenses. It advocates taxing non-Muslims which is an oppressive act with the threat of violence which is stated implicitly. Idolaters are to be slain unless they repent. It advocates sex with those who have been taken as slaves (by violence or threat of violence), which doesn't preclude forcing the act which is rape (violence). It advocates temperance, except when dealing with polytheists who are to be slain wherever they are found (not exactly invoking a defensive act).The Koran makes clear that non-believers are not to be treated as equals, and it could be easily argued in this PC world that such notions are preludes to violence. Beyond the book itself (it's just a book) we have the actions of Muhammad. He was a bandit who turned warlord, raped and pillaged in offensive wars and this legacy was carried on by his family members long after he supposedly flew to heaven on a magic horse.


Okay everyone is bring up the same old out of context crap they find on websites.
Yeah. Well done, you can do a google search. Your arguments are baseless and you havnt learned what Nature and mushrooms teach at all. All out of context.
Why must I have to argue with the ignorant, As if we're logically on the same level; As if ignorant opinions matter. Let me show everyone just how baseless your claims are.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"It advocates killing persecutors"
It does not I can list hundreds of examples where justice has been upheld without death. The Prophet (pbug) would try to avoid it.
Now this is a topic Im not as learnned on as other topics so I could give you the exact reference and sources like I can for other topics. It doesnt mean my knowledge base is empty here, just that I wouldnt be able to recall any exact surahs as well as I do for other topics.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


"It advocates taxing non-Muslims which is an oppressive act with the threat of violence which is stated implicitly."

The tax is lower than the charity fees the muslims are required to pay, plus the non-muslims didnt have to do any wars like the muslims did.
Everyone has to pay taxes for the upkeep of civilisation. Trying to say thats oppresive is a desperate attempt to find dirt on a clean surface.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


"It advocates sex with those who have been taken as slaves (by violence or threat of violence), which doesn't preclude forcing the act which is rape (violence)."

Selective reading again. You have missed the point completely. It does not advocate rape whatsoever.

There are actually hundres of sources on how the members of community including the most priminent would wed their slaves and have children with them.

Slaves had numerous rights over their slave-masters. And the term slave shouldnt be viewed as the European definition where slaves had no rights what so ever.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


"It advocates temperance, except when dealing with polytheists who are to be slain wherever they are found (not exactly invoking a defensive act)."

Disgustingly out of context.

Before this verse it actually says:

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors."

Fight those who fight against you. i.e. Self defence.

Then it goes on to say:

"And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith."

So not only have you removed this verse from its adjoining paragraphs, you have also selectively removed parts of its sentences.

After this it goes on to say that any who wish to stop fighting after breaking a peace treaty are to be escorted to safety.

Literally everything you have said is baseless. You are spreading lies and anti propaganda. Totally against the Shroomery way.

I will not even put more effort into dealing with a ignoramus like yourself. This has taken up 10 minutes of my time gathering sources. I barely put any effort in. Buts its for any who would read this and be swayed by your disgusting venomous ideas.


--------------------
_____________________________________________________
I have a relationship with nature.
I make love to her, but is it enough?
I solemnly swear to love her everyday.
_____________________________________________________
I squashed a dragonfly and saw it writhing in pain.
Ayahuasca taught me to feel what others do.
I felt what it felt in that instance.
I felt disgusted. I partially hate myself for it.
I think Im turning vegan, man.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: laughingdog]
    #22407349 -

laughingdog said:
Hatred is not a recommended emotion for anyone.
I am sorry you have been subject to it.

And Belief is not a recommended way to find 'objective' truth,
hence, for example, as you already know, good pharmaceutical drug trials are double blind studies, with both controls and enormous sample sizes.

That folks identify with all kinds of things would seem to me part of the reason to open the doors of perception, and begin to dis-identify
with all the changing contents of intangible awareness.

This sounds good but I have no idea of how the worlds problems can be solved.


That website you linked earlier is all out of context. I have debased it in a reply to someone else. Please do not try to pass yourself as an enlightened individual. You are a caveman, and shrooms dont help you. You need a miracal.


--------------------
_____________________________________________________
I have a relationship with nature.
I make love to her, but is it enough?
I solemnly swear to love her everyday.
_____________________________________________________
I squashed a dragonfly and saw it writhing in pain.
Ayahuasca taught me to feel what others do.
I felt what it felt in that instance.
I felt disgusted. I partially hate myself for it.
I think Im turning vegan, man.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Nature-lad]
    #22408166 -

all this talk about context reminded me of a song.


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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Nature-lad]
    #22409093 -

Lol, you seem offended. You know, you would be well within your rights as a Muslim to slaughter me for these perceived offenses. Also, I notice you didn't seem to take exception to my comments regarding Muhammad's actions so I will assume you agree with them.

Quote:
It does not I can list hundreds of examples where justice has been upheld without death. The Prophet (pbug) would try to avoid it.
Now this is a topic Im not as learnned on as other topics so I could give you the exact reference and sources like I can for other topics. It doesnt mean my knowledge base is empty here, just that I wouldnt be able to recall any exact surahs as well as I do for other topics.


Contradict yourself much?

"Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time"

So what's being said here is that if you openly disagree action will be taken. Am I to assume a firm rebuke is the length and breadth of the suggested course? Or is violence implied here? We should look to the past and the pedo followers actions to see how passages such as these are interpreted. Just as you have reacted, muslims quite often resort to feelings of righteous indignation and personal slander and for the average jihadist violence is only a brain twitch away.

"Whoever defies Allah and His Messenger must know that Allah is severe in punishment."

Quote:
The tax is lower than the charity fees the muslims are required to pay



This is not a discussion of ways and means but of violence. I don't care if the tax is a grain of sand. Being made to pay believers for being a non-believer is a prelude to violence if the tax isn't paid. What, they're going to call my mother names if I don't pay the tax? I suspect they have more persuasive things in mind.

Quote:
Selective reading again. You have missed the point completely. It does not advocate rape whatsoever.


This is an obvious case of selective interpretation. By definition a slave is someone who is forced against their will under threat of violence, otherwise they would not be a slave. Such defense is laughable. I won't even bother going into the logistics of slaves making decisions regarding their welfare as it should be apparent to anyone with half a brain.

As to the polytheists, a blasphemer whether Muslim or not, may be put to death. I tend to think of this as violence and the threat of violence.

Quote:
I will not even put more effort into dealing with a ignoramus like yourself. This has taken up 10 minutes of my time gathering sources.


Then I guess you won't be replying. If you are a Muslim I suppose you can take some comfort in the notion that I being a non-believer will be sent to hell upon death. It's a laughable concept, but that's really beside the point. In theory the violence visited upon a non-believer will be great, even if it happens after death. Like father like son.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Edited by Rahz (10/20/15 02:44 PM)

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Rahz]
    #22409428 -

Most folks get their religion from their parents.
There is no adult reasoning involved. Once we become adults we rationalize our beliefs and defend them as if we are the beliefs.

If one was going to chose a religion Islam, Christianity, and Jainism are some of the least attractive ones. The Jains aspire to starve themselves to death.
Hinduism with lots of colorful gods looks like much more fun.
Native American religion is one of the most difficult, but has the virtue of respecting nature to a degree the 'big 3 monotheistic' ones don't.

In America Islam became popular among some blacks, because so many have been imprisoned in the USA, and the guys in prison into Islam were the only ones there with self discipline, some apparent calm, and sense of purpose.

Like wise out side the West in the war torn, frequently illiterate, and poverty stricken areas of the Middle east, where America (with it's Christianity) and with it's brutal wars and torture at Guantanamo bay and publicized racial prejudice at home is seen as the oppressor and those who are into Islam seem to have an answer and proselytize like crazy to the masses.  The result is not surprising.

People don't choose their religion they way they choose a college.
People go to religion because they are suffering and desperate.
That there is frequently not much choice in the local environment, is not a barrier to desperation.

It is a very modern phenomenon in the USA that there are lots of meditation teachers, religious retreats, yoga at the local health club, and other such choices available. This has all happened only to a post black and white TV era with some regular world news, post more available college, post psychedelic  60's era, post mega-bookstores, & now post internet.

This type of choice, and education, and sophistication is not available to the majority of humanity.

So the poor make do.

While the well off, educated, and young may even travel to Central and South America to do retreats with shaman. I'm sure this is much more fun than all the repressive shit of the "big 3 monotheistic' ones".
Who by the way have been arguing and killing one another for centuries.

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Rahz]
    #22409866 -

Rahz said:

I am not even going to read that.

But I will say this. There are ways to argue. To find truth or to win. You are arguing to win. The thing about that is, you will resort to lies and fabrication to sound right. Im not going to waste anytime talking to the petty.


--------------------
_____________________________________________________
I have a relationship with nature.
I make love to her, but is it enough?
I solemnly swear to love her everyday.
_____________________________________________________
I squashed a dragonfly and saw it writhing in pain.
Ayahuasca taught me to feel what others do.
I felt what it felt in that instance.
I felt disgusted. I partially hate myself for it.
I think Im turning vegan, man.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Nature-lad]
    #22409891 -

Nature-lad said:
I am not even going to read that.


Wow man, way to stereotype yourself.

I was actually looking forward to your reply; I thought Rahz brought up some interesting points for debate.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22411903 -

beliefs are stereotypes.
Folks identify with them,
and limit themselves
and defend concepts to the death
thinking they are doing something wonderful.

Protestants and Catholics in Ireland.
Kurds Shiites and Sunnis.
Jews and Arabs.

To an outsider, often the folks that fight, seem more similar,
than any others around.

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Nature-lad]
    #22412154 -

Quote:
Your arguments are baseless and you havnt learned what Nature and mushrooms teach at all.


So enlightened by mushrooms and nature that dedication too promoting lies is the result.

Actually I get it. There is deep immersion with the ineffable, meditation and contemplation in Islam. There is potential in Islam. Still personally I would eradicate Islam/Christianity and Judaism if I could, but that is impossible, I can't even stop myself from being a Christian.

Sure the Koran can be interpreted differently, but mainstream Islam is a real pain in the ass, if you really believe what you are saying, go live in Saudi Arabia, grow mushrooms and do spiritual workshops teaching natures lessons and see how long you last under Sharia law. Then these migrants move west and demonstrate their total absence of peacefulness by demanding Sharia law in the west, or they just rob, beat, rape and murder hapless folks and pretty much get a pass because liars like you keep bleating on their behalf. Take you Koran and shove it up your ass. Islamic meditation reports on the ineffable are boring. Let me have some art.

THE KORAN/ISLAM = NO MAGIC MUSHROOMS you LIAR. Trippers will be put too death under the law of the Koran. I will not eat your shit.

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #22412195 -

I remember, the Koran on mushrooms is peaceful. The muslims are at peace killing Infidels, the Infidels are at peace being executed by muslims.

There is limited access to books in the Middle East. The left agenda is to bring muslims to the west as a wealth distribution scheme. Wrong solution, historically religious extremists have successfully destroyed all books. Now muslim immigrants agitate for sharia shit laws and under these laws all the books will be burned. A better solution send books to the middle east. Wage a god damned culture war for humanities sake.

With English/Europes colonialism came christian missionaries. These people were most often powerless but how they changed minds. Consider the peril and adventure of plain devout christian missionaries. The confident nature mushroom koran folks probably should be (going to muslim nations to preach to those who do not get anything rather than to the choir. No books, no art, no music, no theater, no games, no newspapers, no magazines, no radio, no television, no video, no movies, no drugs, no thinking and no sex. Work and prayer 5 times a day. I know it's not all like this, as cut off hands can go unnoticed for the most part.

Personally I have no interest in talking to Arabs. I would rather attempt to explain to Swedish folks that they have a very unique appearance, history, culture, spirituality, purpose and beauty. The unique manifestation of Swedish folks is wonderful and should be preserved rather than being mixed with stuff. My opinions never amount to anything more than absurd poetry. All this cultural imperialism is always a double edged sword. Everything my enemy learns becomes a new weapon to use against me. All the while I refused to see them as an enemy.

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22412309 -

Jokeshopbeard said:
Nature-lad said:
I am not even going to read that.


Wow man, way to stereotype yourself.

I was actually looking forward to your reply; I thought Rahz brought up some interesting points for debate.


I skimmed through and it and it looked like speculative argument with no foundation. For your sake I will denounce everything he has said. Bare with me though. I need to purify myself and search through the Quran.


--------------------
_____________________________________________________
I have a relationship with nature.
I make love to her, but is it enough?
I solemnly swear to love her everyday.
_____________________________________________________
I squashed a dragonfly and saw it writhing in pain.
Ayahuasca taught me to feel what others do.
I felt what it felt in that instance.
I felt disgusted. I partially hate myself for it.
I think Im turning vegan, man.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22414786 -

DividedQuantum said:
Well honestly when I studied the Koran I was not bothered by the 109 verses in which post-9/11 everyone is saying God calls Muslims to kill any and every non-Muslim, if for no other reason than the fact that there are over 6,100 other verses, and when I studied it, the interpretation Nature-lad and myself have suggested was the accepted one.  Perhaps this insularity and prejudice is why so many Muslims hate us.  Not because God commanded them to.


Why would you judge Muslims based the Koran rather than their own admitted beliefs and actions?  The Muslim world is a shit hole, from west Africa to the Philippines they fight with their neighbors and each other.  Excusing their hate and violence as a natural reaction to prejudice is disgusting and ridiculous.  Being discriminated against does not excuse their behavior or beliefs.  The west is not the only culture and society that they fight and kill, they fight and kill their non-Muslim neighbors across the entire old world.  The verses of the Koran do not negate this.

What you are doing is akin to denying racial oppression in the US because the declaration of independence says all men are created equal.

Edited by DieCommie (10/21/15 08:15 PM)

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: DieCommie]
    #22414986 -

To that I would say people engage in that behavior because they are humans, not because they are Muslims.  Why would you single out Islam for behavior very generally affiliated with all humans, throughout all history?  That seems odd.  If you want to blame religion, that's fine with me.  I personally don't think Islam is really materially different than most other religions, historically.  All I was bringing up was my encounter with the Koran.  I'm not excusing anything.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #22415235 -

Quote:
Why would you single out Islam for behavior very generally affiliated with all humans, throughout all history?


It's not generally affiliated with humans.  Its worse than that.  The majority, probably the overwhelming majority, of all active conflicts on earth today involve Muslims.  Also, women and minority rights in the muslim world are worse than in the non-muslim world.  What is the common denominator between Mali, Libya, Sudan, Egypt, Somalia, Israel/Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Chechnya, Balkans, Kashmir, Sir Lanka, Indonesia and parts of Burma and Philippines?  Its not geography.  Its not racial ethnicity.  Its not resources.  Its terrible human rights, violence with neighbors and Islam.  You can go through that list and argue that some of those places are situations of Muslims being oppressed, but if you look at the broad picture its hard to deny the correlation.

Quote:
I personally don't think Islam is really materially different than most other religions, historically.


That qualifier isn't relevant to the situation on the ground today.  What does the historical bad behavior of other religions and cultures have to do with Muslim violence and oppression today?  Its noting but a lame excuse and attempt to whitewash real differences that exist today.  Its intellectual laziness and a politically correct fear of making a judgement.

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: DieCommie]
    #22415521 -

My point was to blame religion in a more general sense.  I'm certainly not trying to excuse any of the phenomena and behaviors you enumerate.  While I do not disagree with the facts you are presenting, I don't doubt there are equally causal political factors.  It just doesn't make sense to me to blame everything on Islam.  That oversimplifies.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22416565 -

In England a native will be fired for being a pagan, while muslims are provided with prayer rooms. The English native is fired because their religion is offensive too muslims. The world is nuts, bat shit crazy. OK Islam is a peaceful religion. muslims are at peace with being insensitive bigots and getting what they want by what ever means necessary. It would be reasonable for the English to protect their own and make muslims shove their peaceful religion up their asses. Only we don't live in a reasonable world.

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Re: "Islam is a peaceful religion!" [Re: Poid]
    #22416575 -

Whenever any religion is 'abused' for any other purpose or intention (obviously mainly for territorial and political power, individually and group-wise), it tendentially turns bad and malevolent.
It may seem like a platitude, but worth remembering from time to time I guess.

Not intended to be a reply to someone specific here.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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