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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11245864 - 10/14/09 12:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Judaism too:

"There is a tiny Jewish sect which makes considerable effort to eschew Talmud and adhere to the Old Testament alone. These are the Karaites, a group which, historically, has been most hated and severely persecuted by orthodox Jewish rabbinate.... The implementation by Jewish supremacists of Talmudic hate literature has caused untold suffering throughout history and now, in occupied Palestine, it is used as a justification for the mass murder of Palestinian civilians. The Talmud specifically defines all who are not Jews as non-human animals." http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

Also here is a quote from Sam Harris, “The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.”


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11245878 - 10/14/09 12:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

What about:

Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong?


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11245903 - 10/14/09 01:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mozhual said:
Also here is a quote from Sam Harris, ?The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.?




Cutting to the chase finally, and that seems fair enough - though why not say... dumb people cause problems? Sure religiousity and dogmatic sheepness is a problem, it just seems people get all up in arms about generalizing religion/atheism as key causes to shit...


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InvisibleBand of Gypsys
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11245916 - 10/14/09 01:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mozhual said:
Proof much?




yes

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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11245969 - 10/14/09 01:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Some more quotes:

When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow.”

Anais Nin


“From the age of fifteen, dogma has been the fundamental principle of my religion: I know no other religion; I cannot enter into the idea of any other sort of religion; religion, as a mere sentiment, is to me a dream and a mockery.”

Cardinal Newman


“The absence of dogma is not dogma; just because I do not believe there is an invisible pink elephant in the room does not make me a zealot.”

Jeff Schweitzer


“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”

Steven Weinberg


“We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.”

Jonathan Swift


“When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.”

Abraham Lincoln


“Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is.”

Mahatma Gandhi


“Every religion in the world that has destroyed people is based on love”

Anton LaVey


“In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.”

Friedrich Nietzsche


“When its a question of money, everybody is of the same religion.”

Voltaire


“All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry”

Edgar Allan Poe


“The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost their power of reasoning”

Voltaire


“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's”

Mark Twain


“The more man clings to religion, the more he believes. The more he believes, the less he knows. The less he knows, the more stupid he is. The more stupid, the easier he can be governed! The easier to govern, the better he may be exploited. The more exploited, the poorer he gets. The poorer he gets, the richer and mightier the domineering classes get, the more riches and power they amass, the heavier their yoke upon the neck of the people.”

Johann Most



“We can live without religion and meditation, but we cannot survive without human affection.”

Dalai Lama


“This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.”

Dalai Lama


“My religion? Well, my dear, I am a Millionaire. That is my religion.”

George Bernard Shaw


“I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it”

Abraham Lincoln


“It is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are atheists and were religion not inculcated into their minds, they would remain so”

Ernestine Rose


“We must respect the other fellow's religion,but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.”

Henry Louis Mencken


“The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”

Georgia Harkness


“He who possesses art and science has religion; he who does not possess them, needs religion.”

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


“Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration - courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth”

Henry Louis Mencken


On the sentiment that not all religions are bad/unhealthy:

“Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity.”

Albert Einstein


“To devote your life to the good of all and to the happiness of all is religion. Whatever you do for your own sake is not religion”

Swami Vivekananda


“The religion that is afraid of science dishonors God and commits suicide.”

Ralph Waldo Emerson


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: andrewss]
    #11245980 - 10/14/09 01:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hitler was religious

Stalin was politically religious

Mao was politically religious

Politically religious, for the 3rd or 4th time, means he took his political views to the extent of a religion, claiming or implying their infaillablity and suppressing all cognitive function... just like most religions.


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11246002 - 10/14/09 01:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Background check and starters: "Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence?"


So tell me... who promotes religions? God sure as hell doesn't. But religions give people an excuse to behave more irrationally and immorally. So do people promote some religions for just this purpose?

Do you like proving yourself wrong after I called you a troll?


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11246144 - 10/14/09 01:44 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

“Religion hinges upon faith, politics hinges upon who can tell the most convincing lies or maybe just shout the loudest, but science hinges upon whether its conclusions resemble what actually happens”

Ian Stewart


“Religion is an illusion and it derives its strength from the fact that it falls in with our instinctual desires.”

Sigmund Freud


“More people have been slaughtered in the name of religion than for any other single reason. That, my friends, that is true perversion.”

Harvey Milk


“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.”

Richard Dawkins


And here comes the catch. Only a had person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly. The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it. The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person—and he would not need it.
—C. S. Lewis


“Of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men”

Voltaire


“How strange a thing this is! The Priest telleth me that the Soul is worth all the gold in the world, and the merchants say that it is not worth a clipped piece of silver.”

Oscar Wilde


“If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color”

Mark Schnitzius


“Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.”

Pope John Paul II


“Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.”

Napoleon Bonaparte


“Never wage war on religion, nor upon seemingly holy institutions, for this thing has too great a force upon the minds of fools”

Francesco Guicciardini


“Faith is a euphemism for prejudice and religion is a euphemism for superstition”

Paul Keller


“I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world”

Bertrand Russell


“The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself.”

Richard Burton


“A one sentence definition of mythology? "Mythology" is what we call someone else's religion”

Joseph Campbell


“We all remember how many religious wars were fought for a religion of love and gentleness; how many bodies were burned alive with the genuinely kind intention of saving souls from the eternal fire of hell”

Karl Popper


“When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.”

Bishop Desmond Tutu


“No philosophy, no religion, has ever brought so glad a message to the world as this good news of Atheism”

Annie Besant


“What I conclude is that religion has nothing to do with experience or reason but with deep and irrational needs”

Richard Taylor


“The introduction of religious passion into politics is the end of honest politics, and the introduction of politics into religion is the prostitution of true religion”

Lord Hailsham


“For those who may not find happiness to exercise religious faith, it's okay to remain a radical atheist, it's absolutely an individual right, but the important thing is with a compassionate heart -- then no problem.”

Dalai Lama


“Being unable to reason is not a positive character trait outside religion”

Dewey Henize



Excerpt from Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon:
"Here is a well-known trajectory: You begin with a heartfelt desire to help other people and the conviction, however well or ill founded, that your guild or club or church is the coalition that can best serve to improve the welfare of others. If times are particularly tough, this conditional stewardship—I'm doing what's good for the guild because that will be good for everybody—may be displaced by the narrower concern for the integrity of the guild itself, and for good reason: if you believe that the institution in question is the best path to goodness, the goal of preserving it for future projects, still unimagined, can be the most rational higher goal you can define. It is a short step from this to losing track of or even forgetting the larger purpose and devoting yourself singlemindedly to furthering the interests of the institution, at whatever costs. A conditional The Invention of or instrumental allegiance can thus become indistinguishable in practice from a commitment to something "good in itself." A further short step perverts this parochial summum bonum to the more selfish goal of doing whatever it takes to keep yourself at the helm of the institution ('Who better than I to lead us to triumph over our adversaries?')."


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

Edited by mozhual (10/14/09 02:13 PM)

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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: andrewss]
    #11246176 - 10/14/09 01:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
The placeholder of religion being the cause of violence is often (in its key examples) in reality quite POLITICAL -under the guise of the religion, no? People might use it as a tool to get the rabble roused but is religion the truest cause? Its the PEOPLE I tell ya! Shitty things have happened in the name of god and without the name of god... its just religion is an easy thing to identify as the cause but I think its far from the truest cause of things forementioned.



Sorry I missed this before, but yes I would tend to agree. Which is exactly why I continually point out that anything void of reason and logic is unhealthy, "But all of these things stem from unchecked, unsupported, and uncontrolled beliefs, religions is just the largest piece of this pie". It is just one piece... they are all inherently bad for humanity(if only because they give humanity so much control based on "feelings", visions, and all around bullshit).


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11247097 - 10/14/09 04:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I seriously wonder if all the times the words "religion/religious" are used in this thread, were replaced with "dogma/dogmatic" we'd actually still disagree on anything?


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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OfflineCharos
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11247300 - 10/14/09 04:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mozhual said:
I :heart: Nietzsche too.

If only more pious souls had the intellectual courage to be more like syncretists we'd have a more open society and atheists like Dawkins would probably be much less vocal about their protests (hopefully).

Quote:

I'm everything I've been exposed to


Oh fuck, I have such a nice thread I'm going to start soon about exactly my little pet theory of the importance of that notion. I am loving it.




It's a core point for the idea of subjective morality i hold...our moral truth is our genetics, our biology, friends, church, parents...rarely is it ours alone in some vacuum. :smile:


--------------------
*+_Charos_+*

"Be me, for a little while"
--Eli

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11248505 - 10/14/09 07:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mozhual said:
Hitler was religious

Stalin was politically religious

Mao was politically religious

Politically religious, for the 3rd or 4th time, means he took his political views to the extent of a religion, claiming or implying their infaillablity and suppressing all cognitive function... just like most religions.



Politically religious?  Get the fuck outta here!  That's the biggest cop-out I've heard yet.  First of all, by your definition of politically religious, most religious people would not be religious, since most people do not follow an authoritarian or overly dogmatic form of religion.  Second, rather than just admitting that the problems with religion are simply subsets of the problems in ideology, you try to reduce all ideology you don't agree with to religion.  That's disingenuous and dogmatic.  I might as well just call you religious for being irrational and annoying.  Also, your dramatic overuse of quotes is eerily reminiscent of fundamentalists who quote the Bible incessantly.


--------------------

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InvisibleBand of Gypsys
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11248829 - 10/14/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mozhual said:
I seriously wonder if all the times the words "religion/religious" are used in this thread, were replaced with "dogma/dogmatic" we'd actually still disagree on anything?




I want to replace the word meme with the word potato.

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InvisibleBand of Gypsys
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: Silversoul]
    #11248852 - 10/14/09 08:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mozhual said:
Hitler was religious

Stalin was politically religious

Mao was politically religious

Politically religious, for the 3rd or 4th time, means he took his political views to the extent of a religion, claiming or implying their infaillablity and suppressing all cognitive function... just like most religions.




This is just a way to blame the acts of atheists on religion.

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Invisiblemozhual
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: Band of Gypsys]
    #11249350 - 10/14/09 09:58 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

You and Silver are hilarious.

Let me get this straight, when the vast majority of dangerously dogmatic people are religious, it is suddenly a cop out to generalize dogmatic people as religious?

Quote:

Second, rather than just admitting that the problems with religion are simply subsets of the problems in ideology, you try to reduce all ideology you don't agree with to religion.




They aren't subsets, when millions of religious people go and kill millions of other religious people, you can not call it subsets... ESPECIALLY not when the religious people on the side lines don't speak out or condemn the zealots in any way. A really good example is the way the republican part currently is, you have an extremely vocal minority controlling the vast majority of the parties moderates to spouting their ultra-con. party line. Would you say that all the republican moderates are completely free of blame for not speaking out against the ridiculous propaganda thrown out by the extremists in their own party?

But anyway let me get this out of the way now, I use the words religion and religious for clarity about the more extreme examples of dogmatic indoctrination and oppression among those various groups, generally sticking to the mood of the OP. And wouldn't you know it... religion and dogma are synonyms... Not to mention that religion has a vary broad definition in and of itself. Who is to say you aren't assuming incorrectly the meaning of politically religious? Oh wait I AM.

Quote:

I want to replace the word meme with the word potato.
This is just a way to blame the acts of atheists on religion.



I've already argued this enough...so says who?.... Says you? support it...


--------------------
"Nature is like a sculptor constantly improving upon her work, but to do so she chisels away at living flesh." H.K. Bloom

"Is God willing to prevent evil but not able? Then he is not omnipotent...
Is he able but not willing? Then he is malevolent...
Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god." Epicurus c. 300 BCE

"When I brought up the fact that 'No drug is good or bad, they're all just A drug, what someone does with them determines the postive or negative outcome. Look at medicine, those are drugs' Reponse was that 'well medicine solves problems' well so does LSD." -Learningtofly

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Posts: 29,258
Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: mozhual]
    #11249403 - 10/14/09 10:07 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

You're wrong dude.  Atheists and the non-religious have killed, tortured and warred very much.  All those 20th century examples they have given you are correct.  In the 20th century it was the atheists and the non-religious who spread the most death and destruction (in the name of their atheism and non-religiousness). 

In the end I dont really see a correlation at all, we kill and torture just like (non-religious) animals do, which I think makes alot of sense.

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OfflineSventington
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: DieCommie]
    #11249412 - 10/14/09 10:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Will that post get your atheist license revoked?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: Sventington]
    #11249430 - 10/14/09 10:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sventington said:
Will that post get your atheist license revoked?



I think his agnostic license is still valid.


--------------------

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OfflineSventington
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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: Silversoul]
    #11249451 - 10/14/09 10:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hm....very well then!

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: How Can Anyone Believe In A Benevolent God Who Allows This? [Re: Sventington]
    #11249700 - 10/14/09 10:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Ill be the first to call out the ills of the agnostics too.  I fear no revocation of license.

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* Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
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falcon 3,670 41 09/16/03 01:17 PM
by gnrm23

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