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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Kickle]
    #10844967 -

Kickle said:
History is funny.
It's much less the story of what happened, and much more the story of modern man picking and choosing what most supports his arguments.


There'd be a lot more accurate history without the Christian book burning and hoarding, anti-literacy regime.  I see no reason to believe these things didn't happen where it puts the "conquerors" who controlled the history in a bad light.


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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10844977 -

At best it's the fragment of a story though. And even if it happens to be true, it remains a fragment, a fragment taken out of its original context and attempted to be understood with a modern viewpoint.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10844983 -

And to say that the Romans were just as anti-intellectual as the Christians who followed... eh, that's not really accurate, not even close really.

We're talking the difference between the occasional mob, and the Christian mob who actually took over the government and was able to use the rule of law to support their flash hatred.


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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Kickle]
    #10845001 -

Kickle said:
At best it's the fragment of a story though. And even if it happens to be true, it remains a fragment, a fragment taken out of its original context and attempted to be understood with a modern viewpoint.


:shrug:

I don't see how you can possibly put a good spin on any of it.  Christianity grew out of an era where they were pretty well fucked by the man, and where they were too low in status to be scholars.  So they lashed out at the power systems above them, never really realizing some of what they were destroying, not seeing that religion alone can't govern a society effectively.


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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10845015 -

You really can't honestly put a good spin on culture or gov't in general. To expect humans to act logically or ethically in general in any area of life is not to understand the human condition.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10845038 -

I love the sense of "us" versus "them".
This idea that I'd never do that if I was in the situation, so it MUST have been something that I don't believe in that caused them to do it.

We're extracting out of history only what helps us.
Selective attention.

People didn't believe that what the Nazis did was normal. I'm sure there are tons of people who still believe that there is something different about the Germans. That not just anyone could have done those horrible acts. But, when we actually try to look at it scientifically, it appears that anyone could have fallen prey to such horrors against humanity.

So where do you place blame?
Why need blame be placed?

We're terribly unqualified to judge history.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Kickle]
    #10845061 -

Kickle said:
there is something different about the Germans


They make great cars.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10845098 -

Germans have always been very mechanically advanced.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Kickle]
    #10845101 -

I'm trying to think of the appropriate response to your supposition, but I just don't think that it's a valid argument.  We can't just ignore history because it's not perfect.

I also fail to see where the Third Reich fits into all of this.  I don't see much benefit in bringing the discussion in that direction.


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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: toys in the attic]
    #10845109 -

And they make for great movie material.

Patton
Saving Private Ryan
Valkyrie
The Longest Day
The Dirty Dozen
Kelly's Heroes
The Guns of Navarone
Defiance
Schindler's List
Band of Brothers

and a hundred others that would not exist if not for the Germans.


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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10845115 -

They fit in, because they are hardly even history! And yet, people have already twisted the event to meet their own idea of what it should have been. The only saving grace, has been that science is advanced enough to examine the event in close enough proximity to provide some insight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Kickle]
    #10845132 -

Weren't there some pretty advanced muslim scientific thinkers in the hay day of the muslim culture...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10845145 -

Ferris said:
Kickle said:
At best it's the fragment of a story though. And even if it happens to be true, it remains a fragment, a fragment taken out of its original context and attempted to be understood with a modern viewpoint.


:shrug:

I don't see how you can possibly put a good spin on any of it.  Christianity grew out of an era where they were pretty well fucked by the man, and where they were too low in status to be scholars.  So they lashed out at the power systems above them, never really realizing some of what they were destroying, not seeing that religion alone can't govern a society effectively.


Religion and the way it forms peoples moral minds is actually not all that bad, its pretty soft in comparison to the state in some ways. There are a bunch of retared talking monkeys out there and if the morality behind superstitious religion makes them act moral then I guess thats not all that bad. Gotta level with the retards and in some sense the depth of convincing about god being a judger is pretty effective... :wink:


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: andrewss]
    #10845177 -

I think it's important to differentiate between religion and theocracy here.  Religion is better than no religion in absence of state control, sure.  In the early days of civilization, this was fairly important.  I'm not sure though that religious government has many admirable qualities when compared to a government run on principles of free thought, like that of the Islamic Renaissance.

I stand by my argument that most if not all of religion's beneficial functions can be replaced by secular models.


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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: andrewss]
    #10845180 -

It would also be worthwhile to teach people about their own moral compass and allow people to judge/forgive themselves. After a while, you realize that God isn't going to smite you, so it's easy to twist morals around. Before long, one is sacrificing newborn babies in the name of God.

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Fraggin]
    #10845199 -

Quote:
Before long, one is sacrificing newborn babies in the name of God.


What?


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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Kickle]
    #10845519 -

People didn't believe that what the Nazis did was normal. I'm sure there are tons of people who still believe that there is something different about the Germans. That not just anyone could have done those horrible acts. But, when we actually try to look at it scientifically, it appears that anyone could have fallen prey to such horrors against humanity.

Well I certainly agree with you here. And would add that because we deny our common humanity we continue to blindly commit atrocities and other fun stuff.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10845538 -

Ferris said:
Quote:
Before long, one is sacrificing newborn babies in the name of God.


What?


It's in the Bible, God want's you to do it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Icelander]
    #10845598 -

If you guys have points, make them, don't be vague.

Religion and Nazism is a complex subject, and I don't think that a simple reference to them has done much good in advancing this discussion.


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Re: How does Atheism prevail? [Re: Ferris]
    #10845624 -

I'm off topic and outside of that if you can't fathom my point then it's no good trying to explain the obvious.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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