Ferris said:

I believe that religion is fully replaceable by society.

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I don't really see the validity of the whole supposing a war between religion and atheism... One of the key highlights of atheism as I perceive it is that you avoid all the bloodshed and war caused by religious endeavors (crusades, witch trials, etc. etc. etc.).  I think by calling all out war on religious officials kind of debunks that premise.

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I think most intelligent people are just trying to get by, without someone telling them what the can do or infringing on their rights.  Whether that involves atheism, spiritualism, or religion should really be a private matter of choice.  I think people are starting to realize that, though very slowly.

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andrewss said:

Some aspects of religion are noble actually. Like a egoic projection that what the given believer believes is cherishible till even death in some. Or maybe even better, a demand that others believe the same way, something about it is brute and an archaic aspect of humanity.

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Yeah, that's really noble. Rape is too.

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Perhaps the boring and astute logician atheists would look on that idealism and call it silly or stupid

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Just tryin to give a flip side to the whole hating on religion speel that always seems to happen here

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Then just saying that hate is a waste of time and energy that otherwise could be invested in love and having fun should do.

Ferris said:

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Are you for real?

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The religious in America have been systematically seeking power for centuries.  A lot of this is done on the bureaucratic, judicial and local levels of government as well as the legislatures, where they can implement their ideology through coup d'etats (using the definition of "grabbing power by having men in key positions").

This leads to a direct infringement on my rights.  Look no further than drug prohibition.  I only use the example because its relevant to this site, but there are tons of other examples where religion directly influences my life in a negative way through abuse of power.

I have a right just as they do to fight for my rights, and don't look at me as militant, because they are the ones that have the tendency towards using the military and other brute force to get their ways.  I'm barely planning for defensive action or possibly a last minute preemptive strike (although that's not likely).  This is only if it becomes completely necessary, and if you don't think it can happen, you're ignoring the odds.  The majority of this discussion should be focused on the attritional psychological war that is occurring right now though, not on any potential conventional means (like the use of police to enforce their illegitimate laws).

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MushroomTrip said:

Ferris said:

I believe that religion is fully replaceable by society.

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This doesn't make any sense. How can society replace religion, since religion is part of it? What are you trying to say?

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Icelander said:

Everyone is seeking power. You are seeking power. To focus on religion is to miss the big picture.

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MushroomTrip said:

andrewss said:

Some aspects of religion are noble actually. Like a egoic projection that what the given believer believes is cherishible till even death in some. Or maybe even better, a demand that others believe the same way, something about it is brute and an archaic aspect of humanity.

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Yeah, that's really noble. Rape is too.

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Perhaps the boring and astute logician atheists would look on that idealism and call it silly or stupid

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Maybe it is only your idea that it has to be boring not to fool yourself with imaginary friends, but reality is quite fun and intriguing, no need to ruin it with confusing crap and guilt trips.

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Just tryin to give a flip side to the whole hating on religion speel that always seems to happen here

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Then just saying that hate is a waste of time and energy that otherwise could be invested in love and having fun should do.

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I was more trying to indicate the underlying concept... if people way back never gave a fuck about their interpretations of life what would you have them do? Things get taken personally, and hell what more did they know? Sure nowadays dogmas are whacky but I was trying to think more in the origin of any "religious ideal" - namely a religious type of outlook that eventually was cherished so much that individuals got a bit fanatical. Interesting shit and there is something human and noble in it even though it is brute and stupid. Thats all! Sure but yeah we progress from that and can have our wars over less poetic shit

I think I agree with much of what you said, I am mostly just discussing for the sake of it...

Ferris said:

Icelander said:

Everyone is seeking power. You are seeking power. To focus on religion is to miss the big picture.

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If by power, you mean freedom from oppression, sure.

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Icelander said:

No I mean control of their material and emotional environment. Everyone does this. The so called bad guys and you too. Your "freedom" will always come at the loss to some other form of life.

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Religion isn't bad because they have power and I don't, they're bad because they have power and they abuse it.

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Sounds like your lack of power is upsetting to me as well.

They abuse their power, because you don't agree with the useage.
You can't please everyone, no matter what you do.
Good luck with your attempts to do so, but I'm pretty sure Icelander is right. Your "freedom" will always come at the cost of others'.

Icelander said:

Human's aren't really very rational. You assume you are but that is only an assumption and a more rational person would easily point your irrational beliefs out to you.

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While I agree that religion is irrational, I also know almost anything can be made into a religion or treated as if it were.

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A more rational person would easily point your irrational beliefs out to you.

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Please Dad, can't I have one day off?

MushroomTrip said:

Ferris said:

I believe that religion is fully replaceable by society.

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This doesn't make any sense. How can society replace religion, since religion is part of it? What are you trying to say?

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Ferris said:

Icelander said:

Human's aren't really very rational. You assume you are but that is only an assumption and a more rational person would easily point your irrational beliefs out to you.

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True that.

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While I agree that religion is irrational, I also know almost anything can be made into a religion or treated as if it were.

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So long as it's a religion based on humanism and not on god.  The concept of god diffuses personal responsibility and twists morals.  Humanism is geared directly towards solving both of those issues.

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Kickle said:

I wasn't aware that science was the only truth. Why didn't I get the memo?
Science is the power structure of the day, and if history truly does repeat itself, it too will pass. The same as every "truth" before it.

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