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So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins...
    #10315463 -

then science may well be able to reverse it one day.  The question is, should it?

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: mofo]
    #10315487 -

Reverse it into what? What does it mean for homosexuality to be reversed?


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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: Mufungo]
    #10315504 -

to make gay ppl straight Mufungo, thats what reverse it means.

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: mofo]
    #10315536 -

If having a right to your own body means you have the right to destroy a fetus, then I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to alter a fetus with whatever genetic engineering you want.

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: mofo]
    #10315539 -

I think it's worth investigating, however I don't think it's something which should be forced on gays. I mean, if they're happy then they shouldn't be forced straight, if it's possible. In fact, brainwashing aside, I don't think it's something which is likely "treatable" once ones life begins, brainwashing aside. That said, it might be something that's preventable while a fetus is developing, but that's a hypothetical which I'm not really qualified to get into. I don't see how one could ethically test that though, you don't wanna just be shooting hormones into a developing fetus and playing trial and error with babies as they pop out.

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: mofo]
    #10315557 -

Oh ok, so kind of like unbending, or straightening out a metal rod. Will science be able to be bend it back again?

Will science be able to bend straight rods that have never been bent?

What about bisexuals?

If science makes it possible for people to change their sexual preference at a genetic level, will it necessarily change it at a social behavioural level? Assuming it will, then I can't see anything wrong with science helping people who want to make that change at a biological level. I can imagine a person who believes they are gay but who don't have the gay gene might want to get the change biologically. And vice versa... imagine if a homophobic guy found out that he had the gay gene! He'd probably want the reversal straight away!

Edit: my cynicism has resulted in this logical inconsistency damn it... oh well.


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Edited by Mufungo (05/10/09 01:15 AM)

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: mofo]
    #10315561 -

Depends. If it's something that can be done at any point in the person's life, then obviously it's up to them. If they want to be straight then they should be able to have the procedure, and vice-versa I guess.

But what if it can only be done at a very early point, like before conception? Then it's up to the parents. Faced with the option of ensuring their child is straight, I think many parents would choose it, even if they aren't homophobic at all. This would lead to a decline in the size of the gay population, with no one to blame.

And what if it cost a lot of money? What if wealthier people choose the option of ensuring their child is straight while others can't afford it? This could lower the socioeconomic status of gay people, to the extent that they loose the reputation of being trendy guys with good fashion sense.

Alternatively, choosing the sexual orientation of your baby could very easily be outlawed (it's illegal in many countries already, not sure about the US). Some people would still go to Mexico for the procedure though.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: zouden]
    #10315613 -

I think most discourse on homosexuality is completely off target.

Looking for a 'gay' factor.

But what if the 'natural' man/woman sexual connection is an instinct, and some people just don't have that instinct so much. If you dont have the instinct to need or desire the opposite sex, then homosexuality is probably going to be the course of your behavior, because you can appreciate others of your own form and own bodily mechanics, and your own way of thinking. Sexuality for humans is so mental... being brought up in a world where boys and girls are seperated and issues to do with sexuality or being with the opposite sex are hush hushed, can lead a human mind to find a lot of solice and mental engagement with their own sex, because they have spent much of their emotional young days in gender-segregation during the most intimate or naked instances.

it seems that the human brain prefers to settle with one sexuality, too, because otherwise I cant understand why most gay people are gay.. as opposed to bisexual. I mean, the male and female bodies fit together rather well and complement eachother in many instances, and to deny the opposite sex seems like a rather different issue to desiring the same sex. . . if you see what I mean


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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: mofo]
    #10316375 -

mofo said:
then science may well be able to reverse it one day.  The question is, should it?


The "if" belies the hypothetical nature of the question.

I don't think "science," which is actually a group of people, scientists, should be involved with anything to do with ethics.  Why?  Because science cannot decide ethical questions.  The domain of the scientist has to do with descriptive truth, not prescriptive truth.  Science can tell you what something is; it cannot tell you if it is good.

We have philosophers for that.  :smile:


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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: mofo]
    #10316476 -

In Rome, there were no such word as "homosexual" or "heterosexual", only homosexual or heterosexual practices. One is not in a state of homosexuality, but rather does homosexual acts. There is nothing there to cure other than people's prejudices about what constitute the sexuality spectrum and what others shouldn't do with their life.

"Homosexuality" is a disease of the mind obsessed with the term, and as such an ethical problem first and foremost.

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: deimya]
    #10316506 -

You have a question by me in the patterns thread.

Aren't people categorized by their acts?


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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10316810 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
You have a question by me in the patterns thread.

Aren't people categorized by their acts?

The question is vague.  People are categorized by their acts by other people, but these categories are illusory.  There is no creator of categories, concepts, and meaning apart from the mind.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10316826 -

Yes, but mostly as a linguistic trick I would say. The problem stems from when language screws you over and one starts to associate certain "mental state" or "state of being" to what first qualifies as an intention, or will (à la Schopenhauer, rather then à la "free will") to experience one's own sexuality. By using language games like "state of", and by extension by applying strong labels to people engaging in sexual activities outside of one's comfort zone, one may be unwittingly bundling too many concepts together. By using "state of", one starts to think of homosexuality as homosexuals, as something you can move people in and out of, like marbles and boxes.

Should we seek the genetic underpinning of homosexuality in those who had 1% of all their sexual activities with people of the same sex ? 2% ? 10 % ? 50 % ? Whether there is a genetic predisposition or not to homosexual practices, I think it really comes down how comfortable one feels with it, and there lies the problem of moral and ethic, since one's comfort is more often then not directly related to one's social environment; how should one live, and how should one let others live.

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: DieCommie]
    #10316843 -

Qubit said:
If having a right to your own body means you have the right to destroy a fetus, then I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to alter a fetus with whatever genetic engineering you want.


Care to explain your reasoning?

If you buy the God concept, then God not only alters nearly every fetus that comes into life with multiple genetic changes that have not yet been existent, (along with mutations to post-fetal organisms), but is the most prolific abortionist in the realm of life, well past the scope of modern human.

However, I do not understand the relation between the two issues. Care to elaborate? Aside from the fetus these two issues seem to be unrelated, and genetic engineering does not require work to be done in the fetus.

Although it does seem to be a lot easier to work with the genetics when you only have a few cells rather than billions or more.



~Monk

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: Lion]
    #10316936 -

Lion said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
You have a question by me in the patterns thread.

Aren't people categorized by their acts?

The question is vague.  People are categorized by their acts by other people, but these categories are illusory.  There is no creator of categories, concepts, and meaning apart from the mind.


If the mind creates a category or concept how is it not real?  Without concepts we are just dumb beasts.  Technology, based on concepts, evidences differently.


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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: deimya]
    #10316952 -

deimya said:
Yes, but mostly as a linguistic trick I would say. The problem stems from when language screws you over and one starts to associate certain "mental state" or "state of being" to what first qualifies as an intention, or will (� la Schopenhauer, rather then � la "free will") to experience one's own sexuality. By using language games like "state of", and by extension by applying strong labels to people engaging in sexual activities outside of one's comfort zone, one may be unwittingly bundling too many concepts together. By using "state of", one starts to think of homosexuality as homosexuals, as something you can move people in and out of, like marbles and boxes.

Should we seek the genetic underpinning of homosexuality in those who had 1% of all their sexual activities with people of the same sex ? 2% ? 10 % ? 50 % ? Whether there is a genetic predisposition or not to homosexual practices, I think it really comes down how comfortable one feels with it, and there lies the problem of moral and ethic, since one's comfort is more often then not directly related to one's social environment; how should one live, and how should one let others live.


Seems like a slippery slope.  If a person participates in exclusive heterosexual acts I label them heterosexual.  I'm comfortable with it and they probably are too.  Surveys and other types of polling escape your conundrum by labeling homosexuals as they self-identify themselves.  I have no problem with that either.


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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10317218 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Lion said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
You have a question by me in the patterns thread.

Aren't people categorized by their acts?

The question is vague.  People are categorized by their acts by other people, but these categories are illusory.  There is no creator of categories, concepts, and meaning apart from the mind.


If the mind creates a category or concept how is it not real?  Without concepts we are just dumb beasts.  Technology, based on concepts, evidences differently.

When the mind creates a dream, is that real?  No concept is accurate, all concepts being static impositions on dynamic processes.  Even concepts that facilitate the process of creation of new technology are illusions, as is the technology itself.

People are categorized by the way they act, yes, and how they are categorized is a function of the convention of the moment.  Any category is relatively real if given validity by a mind or minds, but ultimately illusory.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: Lion]
    #10317407 -

I was expecting the question "Then how is it a reproductive advantage to be passed on to later generations, or how is it passed on at all?"

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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: xFrockx]
    #10317423 -

xFrockx said:
I was expecting the question "Then how is it a reproductive advantage to be passed on to later generations, or how is it passed on at all?"


It isn't. I assumed that homosexuality was an evolutionary tool to eliminate unwanted genes from the gene pool or to prevent males from stealing womenz from the alpha male.


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Re: So if homosexuality is genetic in its origins... [Re: learningtofly]
    #10317594 -

It can't be an evolutionary tool to eliminate unwanted genes. It doesn't work like that. But your other suggestion is quite plausible. There could be an advantage to the group in having males around that don't threaten the alpha male... however, this would mean that homosexuality isn't fully genetic, but just a genetic predisposition. If it was fully genetic then it would be selected out.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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