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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Homosexuality and its Cause(s) * 1
    #3256332 - 10/20/04 01:39 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

:syringe:A new study published in the medical journal Endocrinology strongly suggests that homosexuality's underpinnings are physiological.

The study is copyright and not free so I can't post it here. If you want to read it, PM me and I'll hook you up with my FTP server.

Meanwhile, here's the jist of it:


"This particular study, along with others, strongly suggests that sexual preference is biologically determined in animals, and possibly in humans," said the study?s lead author, Charles E. Roselli, Ph.D., professor in the Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, OHSU School of Medicine. "The hope is that the study of these brain differences will provide clues to the processes involved in the development and regulation of heterosexual, as well as homosexual, behavior."

The results lend credence to previous studies in humans that described anatomical differences between the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual men, as well as sexually unique versions of the same cluster of brain cells in males and females.

"Same-sex attraction is widespread across many different species." said Roselli, whose laboratory collaborated with the Department of Animal Sciences at Oregon State University and the USDA Agricultural Research Service?s U.S. Sheep Experiment Station in Dubois, Idaho.

The study examined 27 adult, 4-year-old sheep of mixed Western breeds reared at the U.S. Sheep Experiment Station. They included eight male sheep exhibiting a female mate preference ? female-oriented rams ? nine male-oriented rams and 10 ewes.

OHSU researchers discovered an irregularly shaped, densely packed cluster of nerve cells in the hypothalamus of the sheep brain, which they named the ovine sexually dimorphic nucleus or oSDN because it is a different size in rams than in ewes. The hypothalamus is the part of the brain that controls metabolic activities and reproductive functions.

"They?re one of the few species that have been systematically studied, so we?re able to do very careful and controlled experiments on sheep," Roselli said. "We used rams that had consistently shown exclusive sexual preference for other rams when they were given a choice between rams and ewes."


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (10/21/04 01:56 PM)

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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #3256344 - 10/20/04 01:43 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

lol


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Disclaimer!?

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Invisiblejux
I'm better thanan STD!

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 924
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #3256355 - 10/20/04 01:47 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

interesting. of course, i think most people have some latent bi-sexual tendencies...


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Gomp] * 1
    #3256358 - 10/20/04 01:47 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

What do you find funny??  :confused:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineMAGnum
veteran

Registered: 07/08/04
Posts: 2,421
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #3256361 - 10/20/04 01:47 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Also, a mother's stressed pregnancy causes smaller development of the hypothalamus in males.


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Agent 727
7

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OfflineTodcasil
rogue DMT elf
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Registered: 08/08/99
Posts: 16,381
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #3256366 - 10/20/04 01:49 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

why does it matter?

[edit]

i know why it matters to some people, never mind.


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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:

Edited by Todcasil (10/20/04 01:51 PM)

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OfflineMAGnum
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Registered: 07/08/04
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Todcasil] * 1
    #3256384 - 10/20/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I was raised believing homosexuality was a choice.

I realized this was bullclat once I started liking girls (I didn't have a choice in this). Basically it's the same for homosexuals, except they like members of the same sex.


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Agent 727
7

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Invisiblejux
I'm better thanan STD!

Registered: 04/06/04
Posts: 924
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #3256386 - 10/20/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
What do you find funny??  :confused:




gomp is confused. He is amusing for all his confusion. I assume he is laughing at gay sheep. the idea is weird...


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Todcasil] * 1
    #3256390 - 10/20/04 01:58 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: jux] * 1
    #3256609 - 10/20/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

or.. i maybe laughed because they needed a study for that  :grin: :thumbup:


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Disclaimer!?

Edited by Gomp (10/20/04 03:00 PM)

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #3256656 - 10/20/04 03:11 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

If a "vaccine" was developed, should straights force gays to get inoculated?

(I would vote for ONLY the lesbians to get the shot. :wink: )


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (10/20/04 11:36 PM)

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OfflineTodcasil
rogue DMT elf
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Swami] * 1
    #3256672 - 10/20/04 03:15 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

i dont think there would be an overwhelming rush of gay men and women running to the doctor for their gay vaccine.


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:

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OfflineScarfmeister
Thrill Seeker
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 8,127
Loc: The will to power
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Todcasil] * 1
    #3257275 - 10/20/04 05:09 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

lol gay rams


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Scarfmeister] * 1
    #3257763 - 10/20/04 06:48 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

That's interesting but somewhat irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Sexuality simply is, it doesn't matter where it comes from, its personal and doesn't have to be justified (as long as it's consensual and has healthy power dynamics.)

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: NiamhNyx] * 1
    #3257852 - 10/20/04 07:11 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think it's that irrelevant, learning these things about how our desires and personalities are formed can give us a great deal of insight into our psychology.

When it comes to a discussion of the morality of homosexuality, it's 100% irrelevant. Despite that, this information might have an impact on how someone with anti-gay feelings views homosexuals, and could be useful in promoting tolerance.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Phluck] * 1
    #3257908 - 10/20/04 07:22 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

"I realized this was bullclat once I started liking girls (I didn't have a choice in this). Basically it's the same for homosexuals, except they like members of the same sex. "

that was remarkably clear thinking, well said

yeah ive read that almost 10% of nearly every mammal species and even some species of birds are homosexual. There are kinds of birds that mate for life. Some individuals choose to mate for life with a same sex partner, but seek out an opposite sex individual simply for breeding purposes, but they raise the egg with a gay or lesbian partner

very interesting

if anything i think they should start breeding for homosexuality in both sexes, to slow down the population explosion


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Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (10/20/04 07:22 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Swami] * 1
    #3258011 - 10/20/04 08:23 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
If a "vaccine" was developed, should straights force gays to get inoculated?

(I would vote for ONLY the lesbians to get the shot. :wink: )



Based on most lesbians I've met, I'd just as soon let them have their way with other lesbians.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: silversoul7] * 1
    #3258817 - 10/20/04 11:38 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Afraid that they might come after you and you would have no choice in the matter? When is the last time you went binge-drinking?  :tongue:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
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Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #3259985 - 10/21/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Thing is either one is kool or one is not. I mean who cares who fucks who, as long as everyone is having fun?

Nature invented cannabis, it is utterly natural, it is what it is. It is surely what nature intended...but that don't seem to be enough for the type of people who reckon they know what 'God' really intended. I doubt this kind of information you present will do much for those people.....except force them to try to cure the 'malfunction'.

How disgusting that would be......another way to robotise and corral the names into convenient numbers.

I mean you can spend forever abraisively psychoanalysing yourself or whoever - but why? Why not just enjoy? Why not use your individuality to reach out and experience. It's a shimmer of magical diversity. It's the outcome which is the person....which is so awesome.

Aaahhhhh! Because someone wants you in a little pigeon hole slot in their cultural model - which is of course the ONLY acceptable way to be.

Basically there is a bunch of people out there who have to get into a position of attempted control (ie. your monotheist religious leader example, politicians etc) because they can't handle otherness. Therefore anything which doesn't mirror their moral and cultural assumptions is branded sinful/evil/illegal. They can't deal with it, it freaks them.

Their cultural assumptions and beliefs are the only truth to them and anything that veers from this must be exorcised......Only then will they finally feel safe. And until then they must carry out 'the good work'.

I guess we too have to accept them and their inability to accept, but we must all be strong enough to believe in our difference and that simply being is our preogative - no matter what we are, or how far we are from their template.

That being said, if this kind of information helps gays come to terms with themselves when some arsehole has brought them up/through as though they are some abomination - well that's real good.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: CJay] * 1
    #3260007 - 10/21/04 10:26 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Thing is either one is kool or one is not. I mean who cares who fucks who, as long as everyone is having fun?

This is the source of saying, "Who gives a fuck?"


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
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Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Swami]
    #3260139 - 10/21/04 11:03 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

:doggystyle: :whocares: :ass: :wink: :thumbup:

when they gonna get a homosexual couple smiley????

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Offlinedeff
just love everyone
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Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,441
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: CJay]
    #3261743 - 10/21/04 06:39 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

:ass:  works sort of :smile:
:penis:


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Offlineabscisin
just jackin'

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Perth, Australia
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: deff]
    #3262265 - 10/21/04 08:36 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"I realized this was bullclat once I started liking girls (I didn't have a choice in this). Basically it's the same for homosexuals, except they like members of the same sex."

MAGnum, this is indeed clear thinking. But can you be sure your decision was made completely free of the social stigma typically attached to homosexuality? Perhaps at a subconscious level, any latent bisexual desire was eschewed in favour of a more socially acceptable sexuality. Please note, I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm just suggesting the possibility that our subconscious is affected by social norms and governs our behaviour accordingly.

This point is very difficult to clarify, solely because at present, the human subconscious and psyche is something that is relatively uncharted. As a race, we need further research on these fascinating areas - personally, psychoanalysis greatly intrigues me. Good discussion, gents.

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InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: abscisin]
    #3262563 - 10/21/04 09:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I've been told of recent studies in my psych class that show homosexuality to be genetic. I don't doubt it, sounds reasonable to me.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: DNKYD]
    #3262603 - 10/21/04 09:34 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"I've been told of recent studies in my psych class that show homosexuality to be genetic. I don't doubt it, sounds reasonable to me."

The studies you speak of are flawed political claptrap. Sexual preference is a CHOICE that is why it is called a preference. It is a choice based on learned behaviors. We should respect each other's choices, but they are choices all the same.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3262657 - 10/21/04 09:42 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

'Sexual preference' is just a word, it has no basis in actual biology.


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Offlineabscisin
just jackin'

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Perth, Australia
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3262692 - 10/21/04 09:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Indeed, you will notice that the term "sexual preference" has been around for many years now, whereas the specific study of DNA, genetics, homsexuality, and the interplay between them is fairly recent biological advancement. Archaic terms do disservice to a highly modern concept, and should be avoided so as to prevent confusion.

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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: abscisin]
    #3262709 - 10/21/04 09:50 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

The term 'sexual preference' ought to be changed to 'sexual biology'.

It is definately not a preference or choice.


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Offlineabscisin
just jackin'

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Perth, Australia
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3262713 - 10/21/04 09:51 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

'Sexual biology' is more than a little unweildy, haha. Perhaps 'sexual birthright', or even 'sexual "we're not sure yet, it's fairly ambiguous, please wait until our study has concluded"'. Just a thought.

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Offlinedeff
just love everyone
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: abscisin]
    #3262717 - 10/21/04 09:52 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I like the last name :laugh:


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Offlineabscisin
just jackin'

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Perth, Australia
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: deff]
    #3262743 - 10/21/04 09:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

You know, me too! Let's try and assimilate it into common usage. I wonder how we'd go with that :\

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Offlinedeff
just love everyone
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Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: abscisin]
    #3262749 - 10/21/04 09:58 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I'll get started on the pamphlets and ad campaign :thumbup:


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Offlineabscisin
just jackin'

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 15
Loc: Perth, Australia
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: deff]
    #3262786 - 10/21/04 10:07 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

In that case, I'll get on the line to BBC and CNN - we'll have our story on the news by the end of the day, damnit, if it kills me!

... erm, what exactly is our story again?

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3262935 - 10/21/04 10:38 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Sexual preference is a CHOICE

Assuming you're straight, could you choose to get a hardon next time a good-looking guy bumps into you in the checkout line at the supermarket?

Could you choose to start dating guys?

Could you choose to fall in love with one?

Could you choose to be happy spending the rest of your life with one?

I mean, sure, you could date a guy, and spend your life with a guy, but could you ever arbitrarily decide to choose to be happy that way?

Or is what you're attracted to out of your control?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinedeff
just love everyone
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid]
    #3264928 - 10/22/04 02:00 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I forget

so I just gave out free pie

people seemed happy


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: deff]
    #3265069 - 10/22/04 04:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"Sexual preference is a CHOICE"

unless you want to give some supporting logic/evidence to back that up, im gonna have to say i think thats bullshit.

Diploid summed it up well.

Im an open minded guy, in fact sometimes i even wish i could get attracted to guys just to see what that would be like, but the simple fact is, i simply cant choose who im attracted to. If i see a girl who im attracted to, their is no choice involved, shes attractive to me. I dont deliberate and then make a decision, it just happens. And with guys, even if i recognize them as handsome or built or whatever, that element of attraction is simply not there, nor could i ever choose to make it manifest.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Invisibleshroomydan
exshroomerite
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Posts: 4,126
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid]
    #3265365 - 10/22/04 05:40 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Being something of a Darwinist I thought I would point this out.

1) For a genetic adaptation to be passed on to future generations, it must promote either survival or reproduction, or both.

2) If a genetically determined characteristic or behavior is detrimental to survival or reproduction, then it is less likely to be passed on. These are called genetic defects or genetic diseases.

3) Homosexual activity is by nature detrimental to reproduction.

Therefore, if homosexual behavior is genetically determined, then it is a disease which should eventually die out, for those who exclusively engage in homosexual instead of heterosexual activity have a zero percent chance of passing on their "gay" genes.
This leads me to believe that homosexuality is not genetically determined.

This does not rule out the possibility that there may be genetic risk factors which, in conjunction with other causes, lead to this behavior.

Just an observation.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: shroomydan]
    #3265730 - 10/22/04 07:34 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

This leads me to believe that homosexuality is not genetically determined.

How would you account for the increasing evidence suggesting a physiological basis for homosexuality in animals who are not influenced by social environment?

Homosexual activity is by nature detrimental to reproduction.

Then how would you account for significant prevalence (up to 10% by some estimates) of homosexuality given that homosexuals are almost always born to heterosexual parents despite a very strong selective pressure against the behavior?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleshroomydan
exshroomerite
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Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid]
    #3265824 - 10/22/04 08:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"How would you account for the increasing evidence suggesting a physiological basis for homosexuality in animals who are not influenced by social environment?"

I have not seen that evidence, but if it is valid, it could be caused by environmental factors during development, once again the above logic does not rule out genetic risk factors.


"Then how would you account for significant prevalence (up to 10% by some estimates) of homosexuality given that homosexuals are almost always born to heterosexual parents despite a very strong selective pressure against the behavior?"

That's my whole point. Homosexuals are not born. People are born and some of them develop this pathological behavior pattern which may have genetic risk factors. However, the behavior cannot be blamed entirely on genes, for if this were the case, then the genes responsible for that behavior would have died out as soon as they appeared.

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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid]
    #3265862 - 10/22/04 08:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

How would you account for the increasing evidence suggesting a physiological basis for homosexuality in animals who are not influenced by social environment?





recessive alleles?

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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: CJay]
    #3265893 - 10/22/04 08:24 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe a population control mutation, although I don't have a clue how this would actually work on a genetic level, nor do I think there is necessarily a reason behind it at all.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: shroomydan]
    #3266064 - 10/22/04 09:23 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I have not seen that evidence,

Didn't you read the opening post of this thread? :poke:

People are born and some of them develop this pathological behavior pattern

How did you come to the conclusion that homosexual behavior is pathological?


--------------------
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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid]
    #3266165 - 10/22/04 09:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Everything you do is a choice.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3266180 - 10/22/04 10:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Everything you do is a choice.

A lot of what you do it a choice, but certainly not everything.

Have you ever gotten an erection from the proximity of an attractive woman?

Could you chose to no longer be attracted to women?

Could you chose to get an erection from the proximity of an attractive guy?

Certainly you don't think animals make a conscious choice to be gay, do you? How can you not see the logic of this?

Why is it so hard for you to see that people cannot choose what they find attractive. People get horny for whatever makes them horny; they don't chose it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (10/22/04 10:13 PM)

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid]
    #3266486 - 10/22/04 11:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"How did you come to the conclusion that homosexual behavior is pathological? "

It is pathological because it does not promote survival and reproduction.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: shroomydan]
    #3266492 - 10/22/04 11:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

A pathology is something caused by disease.

Homosexuality is not a disease.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (10/22/04 11:37 PM)

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid]
    #3267545 - 10/23/04 11:20 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

everything you did you chosed, but the way it went is the way it went? :P everything you, do you do?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: DNKYD]
    #3267552 - 10/23/04 11:24 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DNKYD said:
I've been told of recent studies in my psych class that show homosexuality to be genetic. I don't doubt it, sounds reasonable to me.




Yes, it seems reasonable that homosexuality is genetic when it requires heterosexual sex to create children. :lol:

:wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3268851 - 10/23/04 05:47 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"Being something of a Darwinist I thought I would point this out.

1) For a genetic adaptation to be passed on to future generations, it must promote either survival or reproduction, or both.

2) If a genetically determined characteristic or behavior is detrimental to survival or reproduction, then it is less likely to be passed on. These are called genetic defects or genetic diseases.

3) Homosexual activity is by nature detrimental to reproduction.

Therefore, if homosexual behavior is genetically determined, then it is a disease which should eventually die out, for those who exclusively engage in homosexual instead of heterosexual activity have a zero percent chance of passing on their "gay" genes.
This leads me to believe that homosexuality is not genetically determined.

This does not rule out the possibility that there may be genetic risk factors which, in conjunction with other causes, lead to this behavior.

Just an observation."

Just an observation.

A gay person does not need to pass on his own genes by reproducing to propagate gay genes. If the relatives of homosexuals survived and passed on genes more then those without homosexuals, then genetic homosexuality does get passed on even as homosexuals do not mate.


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: tomk]
    #3270139 - 10/24/04 01:21 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

i believe that.

i wonder if homosexuality is a choice or a disease. it's almost as if being gay has become trendy.


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3270159 - 10/24/04 01:26 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

This is not truly relevant, but as a young slender, well-built man I was hit upon constantly by gays. Here is the thing, it was EXTREMELY rare that they were at all respectful. I am talking about grabbing and pawing with no dinner or flowers nor even the slightest hint of interest on my part. I am a sexual man, but have never treated a woman this way.

I guess I am trying to say in my anecdotal way, that the dysfunction was more than just one of preference.


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Swami]
    #3270200 - 10/24/04 01:38 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
as a young slender, well-built man I was hit upon constantly..



ha!
Suuuuuuuuuure you were...


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) *DELETED* [Re: felix]
    #3270254 - 10/24/04 01:51 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by Swami


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Offlinekbilly
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3270268 - 10/24/04 01:54 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

you dudes are such fascists even though you all take shrooms.
live and let live for fuck sakes, what ever happened to love your neighbour.

there is good scientific evidence that shows it has at least a partial root in genes eg more identical twins are both gay than normal twins even if they grow up in different houses.

the reason why the gay gene does not get bred out as you would expect is that this same genes in women increases their fecundity eg woman with this gene have more kids making up for the sons who wont have any.

its not a human thing lots of animals do it lions and our closest relatives after normal chimps, are pygmy chimps about 98% genetically identical to us does it all the time.

Edited by kbilly (10/24/04 01:56 AM)

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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Swami]
    #3270272 - 10/24/04 01:55 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

posting nude shots of yourself in a homosexual thread...and complaining about being hit upon by gay boys...


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: kbilly]
    #3270278 - 10/24/04 01:57 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

what good is partial scientific evidence in a spirituality and philosophy forum..? lol


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3270280 - 10/24/04 01:57 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

LOL! The photo was taken by my girlfriend. No one wore clothes on the River back in The Day. Hope I didn't excite you too much.  :smirk:

BTW, why do you assume a male body will excite another male more than a female?  :rolleyes:


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (10/24/04 02:05 AM)

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Offlinefelix
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Swami]
    #3270309 - 10/24/04 02:07 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Hope I didn't excite you too much.  :smirk:

BTW, why do you assume a male body will excite another male more than a female?  :rolleyes:



seems like you are the one assuming..


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3270354 - 10/24/04 02:20 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I am not trolling for PMs, nor will a photo make a hetero male turn homosexual. Guess I am not sure what your objection was. The vast majority of the time I was fully clothed when hit upon. It never happened down by the river where everyone went au natural.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinekbilly
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3270391 - 10/24/04 02:34 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

oh you want me to do your reading for you too.
sounds like your a bit diseased yourself.
and its very relkevant in the philosophy forum, because if its natural then its not sin, and thats in major conflict with the dominant moral philosophy in our culture.

but make no mistake a lot of bisexual men are gay because they want to have loads of sex, its a sex lifestyle. i have no problem with this but i wouldnt say that its healthy in an emotionally or spiritually sense.

and if you dont like me posting here the i suggest you dont read it, sorry to have damaged your precious retinas.

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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: kbilly]
    #3270601 - 10/24/04 04:16 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

How many genetic disorders are still passed along today?
How many that make it unable for one to pass one's genes along?

At numbers like 10% it would seem obvious that homosexuality, if partially or completely decided by genetic factors, would be a recessive trait, or combination of recessive traits, heck maybe a combination of recessive and dominant traits.

Thus it would be entirely possible to be passed on more or less indefinately.


I hate people who rally against homosexuality as much as I hate people who say it's ok because everyone's actually bisexual anyway and some of us just deny it.
Rick James slaps to all you bitches.
I didn't choose to be sexually attracted to women, I just love boobies damnit. And I didn't choose not to be sexually attracted to men, I'm just not damnit.

Everyone. Learn to live with it. Right now. And while you're at it, learn to live with what others do. What the hell business is it of yours, anyway? Hell -- we might as well start an Inquisition and burn people who enjoy EGGPLANT!

Well, were they BORN loving eggplant, or did they choose to love eggplant?

Get my drift?


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Offlinefelix
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: kbilly]
    #3271492 - 10/24/04 01:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

you sure are defensive. it seems you must think you have offended me somehow and you have entered some kind of agressive defensive mode.
Quote:

and if you dont like me posting here the i suggest you dont read it, sorry to have damaged your precious retinas



wow...you treat your posts towards me like i hate gays or i typed that i hate your posts or something..
Quote:

you dudes are such fascists even though you all take shrooms.
live and let live for fuck sakes, what ever happened to love your neighbour.



Quote:

oh you want me to do your reading for you too.
sounds like your a bit diseased yourself.




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Offlinefelix
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Diploid]
    #3276087 - 10/25/04 04:40 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

i'd like to hear some more opinions on this subject..


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3276260 - 10/25/04 05:26 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Homosexuality is caused by Homosexuality.... easy? :P


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3277207 - 10/25/04 09:17 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, it seems reasonable that homosexuality is genetic when it requires heterosexual sex to create children.

Seems perfectly reasonable when you have a basic understanding of genetics.

Just because you pass on a gene, doesn't necessarily mean the gene has an effect on you. For instance, maybe you're born with curly hair, but neither of your parents have curly hair... but you might have an uncle somewhere with curly hair or something.


--------------------
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Phluck]
    #3277769 - 10/26/04 12:01 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

i think what he is trying to say is if homosexualness is hereditary, how is it passed on through offspring each generation?

assuming it is genetic, once that gene became dominant it would hit a kind of roadblock, ending it's flow through the gene pool. so if this is the case, gayness would have wiped itself out, assuming again that the people are truly homosexual and have no offspring.


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3277811 - 10/26/04 12:12 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

by that, you could also assume that homosexuality is a genetic defect...

not saying it is, but that's what the gene theory behind homosexuality leads too.


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3277868 - 10/26/04 12:52 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

May I venture a guess?

Those who are arguing that homosexuality isn't genetic because homosexuals do not reproduce have no understanding of genetics. First, gay people do reproduce. I got news for you, I've fucked a lot of gay guys who have kids. Second, reproduction is not necessary to pass on your genes. Look, if you are one of three children, and you are gay and your siblings are straight, and you do not reproduce, you can still contribute to the success of your gene line by enabling and assiting with the reproduction efforts of your siblings. Add to this helping with extended family, and homosexuality could indeed be beneficial. It would go something like this. Consider 2 groups of siblings on islands. Family A has 2 straight kids and 1 gay one. Family B has three straight kids. The straight kids in Family A reproduce, creating 4 more children. The straight kids in family B reproduce, creating 6 more children. However, both islands only have enough resources for 7 people. In family A, everyone has enough resources. In family B, there aren't enough resources, and they have to start killing each other. In this case, homosexuality has positive value for passing on Genes even though no homosexual passed on genes.

If you think that genetic success requires each individual to pass on genes, you need to back to a science class.


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Offlinefelix
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: tomk]
    #3277918 - 10/26/04 01:18 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

felix said:
once that gene became dominant it would hit a kind of roadblock, ending it's flow through the gene pool



a gene can only stay recessive for so long.

and i'm afraid primal instinct isn't complex enough to worry about available resources and whether or not people need to start killing each other off...lol
i can't consider gayness being a genetic adaptation to the environment, especially considering the time it would take to happen.

Quote:

tomk said:
gay guys who have kids



Quote:

felix said:
assuming again that the people are truly homosexual and have no offspring.



i wouldn't call a man or woman homosexual if they had kids...more like bisexual. this is obviously a choice and apparently leads to homosexuality not being genetic.


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3277964 - 10/26/04 01:45 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

"A gene can only stay recessive for so long"

At this point I'm going to assume you have proved my point about you not knowing a damn thing about genetics.

I think that a person is better able to identify their own orientation than you are, and it's completely ridiculous to operate under the assumption that homosexuals do not have kids because it's a false assumption. Lots of people are pressured into marriages they don't want by family/societies expectations, etc, and perform this role unhappily for years before coming out. When a person has three kids, but was unhappy and depressed as a married man, unable to perform sexually with his wife without fantasizing about gay sex, and attempts suicide before coming out, I'm pretty sure they are a gay person forced into a heterosexual lifestyle be societal forces rather then a bisexual person. The fundemental thing is you are trying to use sexual labels to describe behavior (who they had sex with) when sexual labels actually describe a complex phenomenom of which behavior is only a small part. I've had sex with women, but I gaurentee you I was experimenting with what society expected and am not bisexual. I also gaurentee you I never chose to be gay.


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: tomk]
    #3278008 - 10/26/04 02:10 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

ok..i may know nothing about genetics.

what you are getting into with pressure and these sad stories and all that crap, it's kind of irrelevant to what i'm trying to say and what the original post was about.

Quote:

I've had sex with women, but I gaurentee you I was experimenting with what society expected and am not bisexual.



so you're saying your heterosexual 'experimentation' wasn't a choice...? you are almost contradicting yourself. saying one can CHOOSE to be hetero for a while, but then really be homo and vice-versa.


let's go back to the original post. other animals have also been known to be homo...without all these sad stories of life and society's pressure. [tear]
can that be considered a genetic defect or no?


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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: felix]
    #3278732 - 10/26/04 09:09 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

He's saying the actual act of sex does not determine sexual orientation.

But rather one's inherit desires

A gay guy, who is paid to have sex with a woman, does not suddenly become bisexual


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: Phluck]
    #3278784 - 10/26/04 09:27 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Seems perfectly reasonable when you have a basic understanding of genetics.

Just because you pass on a gene, doesn't necessarily mean the gene has an effect on you. For instance, maybe you're born with curly hair, but neither of your parents have curly hair... but you might have an uncle somewhere with curly hair or something.




Ja, and that definitely makes sense. :wink:

However, the gene would still create a disadvantage for survival of that genetic line.. say the particular gene becomes active in every one of four offspring, or something, and with that one offspring, there is a zero percent chance of further reproduction.....

Of course, this still perfectly allows for the survival of the genetic line, especially since it is probable that less than one out of four would have it...

But anyways, all I'm saying is that said genetic line would still have a disadvantage.... that is, of course, if that is where homosexuality stems from... :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinekbilly
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Re: Homosexuality and its Cause(s) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3280072 - 10/26/04 03:11 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

the reason why the gay gene does not get bred out as you would expect is that women with this gene have MORE kids, than women without it, making up for the sons who wont have any. very recent research.
hence the gene can be passed along.

Edited by kbilly (10/26/04 03:14 PM)

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