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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Icelander]
    #10223141 -

I have recently come to the belief that anti homosexuality was a backlash to pagan cultures.

The Story of Gilgamesh, the oldest recorded legend, involves an intimate relationship between two men

Male on male rape was an act that the pagans took part in (eg sodom & gomorrah) and it makes sense that those less brutish, thoughful early jews who were afraid to be raped or even subdued by a dominant man would just make it the clearest indication of all in their scripture.

Im not sure how many of you have read this section that deals with man on man action

Time for some bible study!


Do not have intercourse with a woman during her monthly period because she is ritually unclean. Do not have intercourse with another man's wife; that would make you ritually unclean. Do not hand over any of your children to be used in the worship of the god Molech, because that would being disgrace on the name of Go, the Lord. No man is to have sexual relations with another man; God hates that. No man or woman is to have sexual relations with an animal; that perversion makes you ritually unclean.

This is taken straight from the good news bible.
Leviticus 18, 19-23

Homosexual relations are not even ritually unclean! God JUST HATES IT!!

wow i love the bible

it gets taken so far! and out of context!

check this out, a bit further on, leviticus 19, 26-28

Do not eat any meat with blood still in it. Do not practice any kind of magic. Do not cut the hair on the sides of your head or trim your beard or tatto yourselves or cut gashes in your boidy to mourn for the dead. I am the LORD.



These are som very central notions of the jewish and christian faiths and depending on the strength of the faith, these are taken with different degrees of seriousness.

Basically though, these practices are merely practices of pagans and barbarians.

All this passage is saying is 'dont be a barbarian!'

but its read as if God has some specific issue with those practices in and of themselves.

Whoever this God fellow is, whether real, alien, or a character of some prolific philosophers, he was speaking to people who did not have a doctrine of practices that they could rely on and spread everywhere to steer people into social order. Scriptures like Leviticus represent ancient codes of behavior that can be taught to people, indoctrinated, even, merely to avoid situations that are associated with social disorder at the time.

The harsh penalties in leviticus reflect the general method of law at the time.

Death penalty is a normal function of human behavior.. it has likely spurred human evolution incredibly. Think about it this way, by killing people who do not conform to social order, you naturally, or artificially, select a breed of people that can adapt to whatever the social order is at the time. Sometimes the laws are just arbitrary and only have to be good on the whole to have a beneficial effect on the community (whereas strict justice is a concept that comes later when smart wealthy people realise that they could potentially be killed for their crimes, which is a consequence that cannot be bought-out-of).

The jews happened to have a rather good set of laws and this allowed them to prosper, and coexist with Romans, for example. The strict sexual and marriage laws ensured very carefully that parents of offspring could be identified and to prevent rogue males from spreading their seed into the socially respectable families. That is their function, it is not that God has some 'problem' or moral crisis with the notions of intermaritual sex.

All of the food practices that define a lot of Jewish life, in Leviticus 11, seem very reasonable:

Do not eat camels, rock badgers, or rabbits. Do not eat pigs. Only eat seafood with fins.
Do not eat a heap of birds
Do not eat winged insects
Moles, rats, mice and lizards are unclean
If any of these unclean corpses ends up on any thing or in any pot, that thing must be destroyed or discarded.


These are taken as important laws given by God almighty to Moses for his people before they entered their new land (Canaan).

This is essentially a survival guide for a NEW CIVILISATION. These people were on an exodus from a culture that they considered confused and abominable.

The writings/laws that moses shared with people were like a text/stories that could be picked up/learned by travelling people moving into a new land in order to survive and maintain peace.

They are not meant to have a higher meaning - they are meant for people who have no direction and need some general guidelines to direct their basal notions of eating, human relations, trade practices, appropriate rituals, farming practices, capital punishment, etc.

A lot of those animals that I mentioned are very broad categories.. but you may notice that it generally includes:

shellfish
Rodents
Birds that kill rodents
poisonous or blood sucking insects


And then also camels, 'rock badgers' (no idea) seagulls, lizards


basically though these are all animals that indeed you would want to stay away from if you do not have very good sanitary practices.

Nowadays we can make sure food is clean, usually

Shellfish are pretty notorious for causing stomash discomfort and illness

and rodents of course are the bane of human existance.

killing rodent-killing birds and camels might just be an unfunctional practice to perform.

The jews make special precaution to drain the blood from meat.. but I think it is taking a very old law too far.. I think the original idea was to simply not eat meat that is pouring with blood, which would have probably been a common pagan practice that led to illness.


Leviticus 11 45

I am the Lord who brought you out of Egypt so that I could be your God.



Seems like God saved Moses' people because he saw them to be orderly enough and found them suitable to 'save' and thus have them as his own little colony of people, who would obey him. I mean thats the whole point of being a Lord isnt it? You make decisions over the land and the people serve you and worship you because you sustain (if you are a good lord) the order in their land.

So as he saves the people, who must leave all of their civilisation behind (though they did not have much power in egypt id imagine), he needs to give them orders for how to live, and it is assumed that this order will allow them to live and survive and be a testament to the Lord that saved them.

And in light of this, anti homosexuality seems clearly a means of avoiding a practice that was associated with paganism and with men being infatuated with other men's ideas.

But more realistically it seems like it was added into the bible at a later date.. it doesnt really follow the format of any of the text around it. If you trully believe in the bible then YOU BETTER HATE GAYS because it is the only sexual practice that God outright hates without a reason


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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10231330 -

No, that is not a part of christianity.  That's a bunch of irrelevant quotes from teh bible.  I know of know christians who follow moses's law, so all those silly things are quire irrelevant to a discusion of fundamentalist christianity.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Doc_T]
    #10233645 -

Doc_T said:
That's Old Testament, along with the prohibitions against eating shellfish and men cutting their hair and the requirement that women have to do certain things when they are menstruating. (Don't they have to go outside the village? Or stay indoors? I forget.)



So basically someone rewrote the more original version of the bible and took it upon themselves to remove the ideas that did not mesh with the views of the new world in which it existed so that it would not be pushed into the realm of inadequacy?  I get it now.. it isn't important for the book to have any historical credibility as long as people believe that what it now says is true because somebody mentioned something like it a verry long time ago.  And as long as those people are on the boat then the mission all is well.  Or something like that.


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: johnm214]
    #10233966 -

johnm214 said:
No, that is not a part of christianity.  That's a bunch of irrelevant quotes from teh bible.  I know of know christians who follow moses's law, so all those silly things are quire irrelevant to a discusion of fundamentalist christianity.



umm tell that to jesus.

It was Paul, his successor, the founder of the Roman Church, who said that the Old Law was not important anymore.

Jesus merely realised that God was not going to sit back and accept lip service.. and so he preached that the primary rule to remember is to love god and love your neighbor and if you do this, God will have more favour to you than the people who follow the Lord's word but do not love the God in their heart.

Dont try and defend your fundie christians.

The BIBLE SAYS THAT GOD HATES MEN HAVING SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH MEN

if you dont fuckin believe that when why believe anything else in the bible?\

wtf??


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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: elbisivni]
    #10234070 -

Noteworthy said:
johnm214 said:
No, that is not a part of christianity.  That's a bunch of irrelevant quotes from teh bible.  I know of know christians who follow moses's law, so all those silly things are quire irrelevant to a discusion of fundamentalist christianity.



umm tell that to jesus.

It was Paul, his successor, the founder of the Roman Church, who said that the Old Law was not important anymore.

Jesus merely realised that God was not going to sit back and accept lip service.. and so he preached that the primary rule to remember is to love god and love your neighbor and if you do this, God will have more favour to you than the people who follow the Lord's word but do not love the God in their heart.

Dont try and defend your fundie christians.

The BIBLE SAYS THAT GOD HATES MEN HAVING SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH MEN

if you dont fuckin believe that when why believe anything else in the bible?\

wtf??





I don't understand what your talking about.  As to why you think the truth is some wrongful defense of fundamental christianity, I have no idea.  Maybe some folks don't change their philosophy on the basis of whether they like the results or not?  I'm not going to agree with something that is wrong/irrelevant just cuz I want to indict fundamentalists.


Jesus said not to follow moses's law, or at least that's the christian interpretation that I've always heard "he who has not sinned...".  If you can correct this belief let me know.
elbisivni said:
Doc_T said:
That's Old Testament, along with the prohibitions against eating shellfish and men cutting their hair and the requirement that women have to do certain things when they are menstruating. (Don't they have to go outside the village? Or stay indoors? I forget.)



So basically someone rewrote the more original version of the bible and took it upon themselves to remove the ideas that did not mesh with the views of the new world in which it existed so that it would not be pushed into the realm of inadequacy?  I get it now.. it isn't important for the book to have any historical credibility as long as people believe that what it now says is true because somebody mentioned something like it a verry long time ago.  And as long as those people are on the boat then the mission all is well.  Or something like that.




Yeah, but according to christians, that someone was god.  Jesus said that stuff as I detail above.  I mean I don't really think its a model of clarity, but whatever, they're allowed to believe what they want.  I just don't get why the magic god book still includes the law that is no longer binding or how the defunct parts are compatible with the view of the bible as god's infallible word.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: johnm214]
    #10234178 -

You dont know what I am talking about?

Let me make it more clear:

here is what the LORD told moses:

Leviticus 18, 22:

No man is to have sexual relations with another man; God hates that.


You are suggesting that we are meant to discard this aspect of the bible. In the absence of any passage IN the bible telling us to discard this aspect of the bible, we need to take it seriously.

now here is the catch: there IS a passage in the bible saying that one does not have to abide by all the Laws of God to get into heaven. however I have not found it said by Jesus.

If you would like to make your point, find this passage where Jesus (or God, the LORD) says to disrespect the Old Law

Without this passage, any person with faith that THE BIBLE is the word of god, MUST believe that God HATES homosexual men.


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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10234229 -

I've allready refrenced it, the throw the first stone quote from J-dog.  No, it doesn't say that quote in particular, but it is clear jesus doesn't care about moses' laws neccesarily.  Either way, whether it makes sense to presume christians shouldn't follow those laws or not is besides the point I was making: christians don't follow those leviticus passages so the criticisms of their absurd beliefs on those grounds is lacking.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: johnm214]
    #10234664 -

Oh it is clear to you? Well I am trying to use logic to form an argument, and I appreciate that you are aware of the stance of most people who call themselves christian.

Just because people are nowadays more lax about the bible than in the past does not change the fact that the Bible is still the primary reference for information about God, and the Bible states that God hates men having sexual relations with other men.

Your argument is merely that Christians do not care that much about the OT. Well I would say they are just lax Christians, definately not 'fundamentalists'. In fact the very notion of the fundamentalist is that the Bible is the word of god.. as opposed to other christians who feel that they can use their own discretion.

Please offer an argument against this as opposed to trying to reassure me (or other members on this board) that such a fundamentalist view is not actually held by people


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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10234925 -

I think what John is trying to say is:
  • When the New Testament (or Jesus) conflicts with the Old Testament (or Moses), the NT takes preference.
  • Jesus's Sermon on the Mount ('love thy neighbour' etc) directly conflicts with the Old Testament with regards to homosexuals.
  • Therefore, a Christian must disregard that part of the old testament.

Anyone who doesn't disregard that part of the OT is not really a Christian, even though they might call themselves that. Ironically, it's always the most hardcore fundamentalists who fall into this category.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: zouden]
    #10234940 -

All groups need an enemy no matter how ridiculous it may be. Hate is more unifying (in the short term) than love.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (04/26/09 04:44 AM)

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10234950 -

Sadly, that seems to be one of the things Jesus was trying to change.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10234956 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
All groups need an enemy no matter how ridiculous is may be. Hate is more unifying (in the short term) than love.



It's easier to act like you hate everyone than to admit that you love them.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Poid]
    #10234979 -

Remember: there is 'us' and then there is 'them'. Can't go having any murky lines around your particular subset of humanity, cause it makes hate all that much more difficult.


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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10234986 -

Noteworthy said:
Oh it is clear to you? Well I am trying to use logic to form an argument, and I appreciate that you are aware of the stance of most people who call themselves christian.

Just because people are nowadays more lax about the bible than in the past does not change the fact that the Bible is still the primary reference for information about God, and the Bible states that God hates men having sexual relations with other men.

Your argument is merely that Christians do not care that much about the OT. Well I would say they are just lax Christians, definately not 'fundamentalists'. In fact the very notion of the fundamentalist is that the Bible is the word of god.. as opposed to other christians who feel that they can use their own discretion.

Please offer an argument against this as opposed to trying to reassure me (or other members on this board) that such a fundamentalist view is not actually held by people




What do you mean I am unaware of the stance of most people who call themselves christian?  What are you referring to? 



And I don't know what this is to mean:
Quote:
Just because people are nowadays more lax about the bible than in the past does not change the fact that the Bible is still the primary reference for information about God,



Yeah, the bible is the holy book of christianity, did you think I was disputing that?

Quote:
Your argument is merely that Christians do not care that much about the OT.




No, where did I say that?  What zouden said, plus:

Quote:
2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


John 8

This isn't hard, I don't know how you are misunderstanding me or why you keep conflating my comments with a defense of christianity or a personal belief in christianity.


I mentioned this passage several times and so does every christian source I've ever looked at that's explaining the christian treatment of leviticus, among others. 


Quote:
Well I would say they are just lax Christians, definately not 'fundamentalists'.




this is just a no true scotsman fallacy.  I don't even know what your saying.  Please define the operative words so we're on the same page.


Quote:
In fact the very notion of the fundamentalist is that the Bible is the word of god.. as opposed to other christians who feel that they can use their own discretion.

Please offer an argument against this as opposed to trying to reassure me (or other members on this board) that such a fundamentalist view is not actually held by people[



Your requesting that I abandon my argument and instead argue one you've picked out for me (which I disagree with)?  Sorry, I meant what I said, and I'm not interested in arguing this alternate point.

Its like you just keep repeating that "its in there, its in there" without worrying about whether it means anything or is taken to mean anything.  If your going to argue about christian beliefs you should argue about... christian beliefs rather than what you feel they should believe.  Your just arguing about the bible which is a seperate thing entirely then what christians believe.


I also doubt many non fundamentalist  christians would agree with you that non fundamentalists use their own discresion in deciding whether to follow the bible.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10234989 -

Hate is easiest when "us" and "them" is clearly defined.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Poid]
    #10235086 -

Since this is futile, given that you cant even understand my posts, I'll state it a final time that the bible states that God hates it when men have homosexual relations.

The Law of the OT describes appropriate punishments for crimes as well as restrictions on behavior. I don't believe you will find that Jesus said that the men should not follow the law. Rather, he suggested that the man with no sin cast the first stone. It happens that the people agree with Jesus' suggestion and then we realise that they all have sinned, since they all leave the stoning to someone else.

I think that Jesus would say prostitution is wrong, even if he could love a prostitute. Similarly, would not Jesus say homosexual relations between men is wrong, even if he would forgive a man for it?

If non-fundamentalist christians do not use their discretion to read the bible, then once again, they would be commited to agreeing that God hates it when men have sexual relations with other men.

Yes i will keep saying 'it's in there' because it bloody well is.

So far I have found no words of Jesus that conflict with the OT.

I would say rather that he HACKS the OT and connects with humans on a human to human level, and has his own human emotions. In order to find a balance between his teachings and his feelings and his connection with his god, Jesus forges a path that abides with what he considered the most important aspects of God's word to teach to other people and spread.


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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10235112 -

Quote:
Similarly, would not Jesus say homosexual relations between men is wrong, even if he would forgive a man for it?




He says more than that - he says that we should forgive a man for being homosexual too.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: zouden]
    #10235122 -

Yeah we should forgive a man for being a murderer, TOO. that doesn't make it OK in God's eyes


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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10235130 -

So you're saying that being gay is like being a murderer? :what:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: zouden]
    #10235135 -

wtf..

if blue is like yellow then gays are like murderers...

the former two are 'alike' because they are both colours, the latter two are 'alike' because they are both acts that are disapproved of by God.


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