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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: DemonoftheDrop]
    #10206037 -

DemonoftheDrop said:
lot of the time i find my self like really fucking annoyed with gay guys and fat lesbians that are all butch..its not because of their lifestyle choices but simply on the way they act..well i suppose i should say some for all you fags that get butthurt when i sterotype.



Who cares what you find annoying? I find people that use this place to bitch about their petty and dysfunctional likes and dislikes rather than debate annoying.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10206174 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Miss America runner-up may have lost crown over her belief in same-sex marriage. Gays in uproar. WTF do the gays care about some barbie doll's Christian beliefs?



While I agree with the sentiment that Miss America is a vapid puppet for conservative sexist values...if you think that fags don't follow beauty pagaents than you haven't spent that much time with fags


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10208815 -

sterbeklang said:
learningtofly said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."


Do women fall under the category of mankind? or is there also a womankind


Well, I guess the Bible doesn't technically say women can't lie with womankind as they lieth with men.  But for the most part it is agreed that "men" in the Bible means "men/women."  At the same time, this technical oversight could possibly be one of the reasons that Lesbianism is better accepted by the community at large, i.e. straight men like to watch women get it on with each other, but call homosexual men "fags," i.e. dry twigs who fuel the fire of God's wrath.

According to the dictionary on my Mac:
fagot: (British: faggot) - a bundle of sticks or twigs bound together as fuel.


Actually God's Word does speak to lesbianism in the NT:

24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: fivepointer]
    #10208837 -

So should we kill both male and female homosexuals or just the males?


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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: johnm214]
    #10208899 -

johnm214 said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."





Christians don't believe in moses's laws as alluded to earlier.  Christ rejected them "he who has not sinned shall cast the first stone..." and all that.


Then again they do like to cite that provision so I don't know.  One thing though, I've never heard any justification for that being authoritative at all.  That's just a bunch of shit moses said cuz he's a bigot.

I just don't get what that has to do with gay marriage or anything, but whatever.



Your right though, I really wonder how many christians actually read the bible.  I'm the only person I know whos read it and I know several christians.  I just don't get how anyone could use that book to justify anything.


The whole notion that I find ridiculous is the notion that the bible is all god's word but then the concurrant notion of christians that certain parts of gods word are bullshit (leviticus fo rexample) and don't need to be followed (except when they wnat to justify their actions, like the gay hating).


They can believe what they want, I just find it incredibly arrogant and deceitful to cite the bible in support of their positions when they ignore the portions they don't want and believe whole sections are meaningless.  I mean where did god say certain parts are more important to others?  And yet we don't have slavery and stonings and all sorts of other things the bible comands.  But if two guys want a government license all hell breaks loose.


The bible is almost meaningless, totally incoherent, and the manner in which christians cite its provisions to justify their beliefs is just indefensible.  Just read some christian philosophy sometime.  Its all these incredibly ridiculous deductions from vague biblical passages supporting some twats preconceived notions.  (check out the catholic justification for the pope and all that jazz for example... quite a stretch.)


Moses didn't write the scripture, it is the very Word of God.  Jesus considered all the OT as the Word of God.  The Bible always defines marriage as between a man and a woman and speaks against homosexual behavior in both the OT and NT.  The OT law was not given to the Gentiles.

If God lays down a law it should be obeyed whether or not you agree with it or understand it.  The very fact the lawgiver is God automatically makes whatever is commanded just correct and proper.

The severity of the law and the magnificent grace that satisfies its demands are core gospel doctrines.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: fivepointer]
    #10210621 -

I understand their are other places where homosexuality is purportedly discused in teh bible, but I see leviticus cited most frequently.



So you do believe those portions of leviticus aren't relevant for christians?  Cuz I've heard quite the arguments about the gay part- just wondering where you stand on that quote.



Yes i agree we should follow god's law regardless.  My difficulty is understanding what that is.


As for the christians and jews, I find their use of scripture pretty silly.  Like I said, they seem to believe whatever they want and justify it after the fact with vagaries.

I also find your refrence to romans typical of the justifications, though more well defined then most.


how does that excerpt say anythign against gay marriage or lesbinism?  I can't see it.


It says women were unnatural in their acts.  Okay, what's that mean?



Who knows.  If god wanted to tell me something I would think a more clear means would be used- I can't deduce anything from that verse on lesbianism.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: johnm214]
    #10210748 -

The other question I have for you or anyone who can explain their or the christian point of view, from whatever angle, is why does leviticus apply to jews from the christian perspective?  I don't understand that.  Jesus said what he said.  Their were no footnotes.  Either that means what the christian interpretation has taken it to mean (moses' laws are repealed) or it doesn't. 

The jews don't get a free pass just cuz they don't believe in jesus' divinity, right?  After all, they are going to hell for eternity for rejecting him, right?  So its not like moses' laws weren't applied to the gentiles its more like moses' laws apply to nobody after christ and the jews are just continuing on in their unholly ways and will be damned for eternity in lakes of fire, et cet, correct?

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10211904 -

The Bible. Now there is a book that describes everything from genocide to hookers who like big dongs.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10211918 -

ummm you realize the bible also says its ok to kill disobedient children right?  just thought you may want to throw that out there with the gay thing.

and before anyone refutes me  Deuteronomy 21:18-21

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: AbortionVictim]
    #10212097 -

We've allready been over that, moses' law doesn't matter, so no, the bible doesn't say you can kill your children according to the christian interpretation.



That's the jewish law.  Somehow they decide to create huge organizations deciding whether their meat was killed in a kosher wayy and telling them if they can eat honey, but they don't kill children, i don't get it.  It says that you shall do many things, but somehow they only decide the food stuff matters. 


Btw, can anyone find where it says the bible is the word of god?  Like the whole thing?  I can't recall if I've ever heard where that is justified, especially given its compillation.  Is their any support for that premise?  i.e. is their any reason anyone should care what moses or the apostles say?  The majority of the bible is just random guys saying stuff, who cares what they think?  Just wondering how the assertion that the bible is god's word in its (the bible's) entirety.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: johnm214]
    #10212135 -

I had a look (google) and found this:

Quote:
There can be no doubt about the fact that the Bible does claim to be the very Word of God. This is clearly seen in Paul’s commendation to Timothy: “. . . from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).



--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: zouden]
    #10212256 -

which begs the question: what is scripture?  The history and relative periods of compilation of the biblical and nonbiblical "scriptures" leaves substantial doubt what is refered to.  (ie. the new testament didn't exist when that conversation transpired..  is it scripture?  what about the books that weren't voted in?)

And its kind of a problem too, since I'm trying to figure out if I should care what random dudes say rather than god.  If god told me the bible was his word I'd believe him, but your source, as typical for these things, is some guy saying something.  Who gave these people the authority to speak for god?  I just never got that- especially given the number of admonitions about "false prophets" in the bible.

I do appreciate the help though, that is probably what a christian would give me, so I don't mean to criticize the info.  I just find a lot of the biblical interpretation to be entirely circular even if you accept the initial premises that it really was what god and/or jesus said that was faithfully transcribed and voted into conclusion at various times in history when the bible was put together.  :thumbup:


I mean you would think if god was trying to communicate, as he did many times in the books, he would tell us himself what he wanted to say or at least indicate what books were his word.  The whole manner of the bibles compilation kinda casts some doubt on whether the "divine" portions were faithfully included even if we should care what some random beggar is saying in the bible.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: johnm214]
    #10212299 -

Yeah the whole thing is pretty dodgy. Some denominations have books that the others don't, so whose compilation is correct?

As for the bible reassuring its readers that it's the word of God... well, most followers seem happy enough to believe it :shrug:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: zouden]
    #10212417 -

I would like to see a Bible in circulation that replaced the gospel of John and several of Paul's letters with the secret gospel of Thomas.

Many Christians prior to the council of Nicea followed a form of Christianity that more closely resembles Buddhism than the current conglomerate of Christian denominations.


--------------------
If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10212960 -

Swyfty Swyf said:
Many Christians prior to the council of Nicea followed a form of Christianity that more closely resembles Buddhism than the current conglomerate of Christian denominations.


I remember when I was in Falun Dafa, Jesus was considered a Tathagata Buddha.  (That is the highest level of Buddha that still cares about human activities.  Levels above that are too high and mighty to care what goes on down here on Earth, the nadir of the Universe.)


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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: johnm214]
    #10220985 -

johnm214 said:
which begs the question: what is scripture?  The history and relative periods of compilation of the biblical and nonbiblical "scriptures" leaves substantial doubt what is refered to.  (ie. the new testament didn't exist when that conversation transpired..  is it scripture?  what about the books that weren't voted in?)

And its kind of a problem too, since I'm trying to figure out if I should care what random dudes say rather than god.  If god told me the bible was his word I'd believe him, but your source, as typical for these things, is some guy saying something.  Who gave these people the authority to speak for god?  I just never got that- especially given the number of admonitions about "false prophets" in the bible.

I do appreciate the help though, that is probably what a christian would give me, so I don't mean to criticize the info.  I just find a lot of the biblical interpretation to be entirely circular even if you accept the initial premises that it really was what god and/or jesus said that was faithfully transcribed and voted into conclusion at various times in history when the bible was put together.  :thumbup:


I mean you would think if god was trying to communicate, as he did many times in the books, he would tell us himself what he wanted to say or at least indicate what books were his word.  The whole manner of the bibles compilation kinda casts some doubt on whether the "divine" portions were faithfully included even if we should care what some random beggar is saying in the bible.


God preserves His Word by providence.  All events are ordained according to God's purpose, including the preservation of His Word. 

Random dudes did not write scripture, it was written by the Holy Spirit, men only wrote down what was given through them. 

The canon was established before any "council" put a rubber stamp on it.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: fivepointer]
    #10221107 -

Really? Who establish the canon? God? How come he didn't tell us until 325 AD?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: zouden]
    #10221116 -

Canon? Don't give the Christians a canon! They'll just fire it at someone...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: fivepointer]
    #10221504 -

Quote:
God preserves His Word by providence.  All events are ordained according to God's purpose, including the preservation of His Word. 

Random dudes did not write scripture, it was written by the Holy Spirit, men only wrote down what was given through them. 

The canon was established before any "council" put a rubber stamp on it.


The holy spirit dropped by in my dream last night, he said shutup...and that theres nothing wrong with gay people and shame on anyone who tries to apply that outdated thing to present day literally.

There it is, the word of god.

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Re: Fundamentalist Christians and Gays [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #10222659 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Canon? Don't give the Christians a canon! They'll just fire it at someone...


Word


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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