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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7880145 -

Cervantes said:
An agnostic, by definition, is not waiting for proof... they just acknowledge there IS NO PROOF YET



But what constitutes proof then? Surely a Christian claiming he felt Jesus or saw Jesus counts as proof to them? Where is the line drawn?

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880186 -

TheCow said:
Cervantes said:
An agnostic, by definition, is not waiting for proof... they just acknowledge there IS NO PROOF YET



But what constitutes proof then? Surely a Christian claiming he felt Jesus or saw Jesus counts as proof to them? Where is the line drawn?


Just 'cause it feels like proof to them... proves nothing.

Proof is a SCIENTIFIC term.

SPIRITuality exists in the mind. Spirits by definition are intangible. You can't hold, see, or touch a spirit. If god is PROVEN to be REAL... then god would cease to be SPIRITual. Once THAT happens... we will have PROOF of god.

Until then, the TRUE agnostics will have a case. They're hedging their bets... in a LOGICAL way.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7880202 -

But how does one go about proving God? It is not possible by any stretch of the imagination. There is no way to prove God in any way, bring up any example and there will be an reason for it happening that does not include a supernatural power. I will always claim that anything that happens in this universe resides in the universe. That is the only logical explanation for anything to me. God can never be proven in a scientific way, under any stretch of the meaning of scientific proof.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880221 -

That is almost exactly what I am saying here.

God COULD be proven in a scientific way... but don't hold your breath... and if it ever happened... God would cease to be SPIRITual.

An interesting quandary.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880224 -

This has nothing to do with a supernatural entity. The broadest definition of god need not be supernatural. (of course nothing is supernatural... if we encounter an apparent supernatural phenomenon we simply redefine nature)

Obviously people's feelings arnt proof. What constitutes proof is what normally constitutes proof... independent verification with repeatable predictable phenomenon (experiment and/or observation) and peer review coupled with consensuses. Why should it be any different then normal science? That is where the line is drawn.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7880226 -

I dont think its reconcilable. My only point with this thread is to clarify what being an agnostic means. I think a lot of people who are against religion and pro science choose it. They dont choose atheism because they think it shows a faith similar to religion. However atheisms faith is different from religions, whereas agnosticism includes a belief in faith that is exactly the same as religion.

In the end its just labels however, but what else is there to do but argue?

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880232 -

If we couldn't argue... forums would be rather boring. :wink:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: DieCommie]
    #7880240 -

Yes but how would one go about verifying God. Say God came down, and said Commie I am God. He then made some vases float or turned water into wine. Now you had scientists come over and he would do this every time. Is that God to you? My point is, what has to happen for he to be God? As I said I will always claim that whatever we are viewing is a phenomenon intrinsic to the universe, and that there is no reason to bring god into it

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880315 -

What do you call a person who believes that no one knows anything and everyone who has ever lived and claim they knew is 100% completely full of shit?


--------------------
Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #7880362 -

STAL

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880417 -

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/11/16 09:47 AM)

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: DieCommie]
    #7880492 -

To address the first part:
The error in your thinking as I see it is that if you claim that you can prove God exists then you leave the playing field wide open for interpretation. Is not Intelligent Design a similar concept? The world is too complex to have developed on its own, therefore that is proof of God? Your example where God tells us to do something and an outcome occurs is not proof of God. It is proof of an occurrence that is sure, but not one supernatural. There could be many other explanations for why that occurrence happened. If you claim that God can be provable then you have to define what acceptable proof is. This is not possible under any scientific circumstance, I think if you reason this point through you will see what I am saying, therefore I will leave this alone for now.

As for your remark about something figuring out what caused the Big Bang, well I can see that as being God. Let's say some creature learns how to create a universe somehow, then you might be able to assume that's how our universe was created if you had relevant data. At that point you would be God to that universe you created. Although this is a far fetched result and really doesn't have bearing on us trying to determine if agnosticism and religion share basic tenants. It is interesting to think about though, but if I became God I couldn't blame my creations to assume I didnt exist, in fact Id be disappointed if they did assume that.

The cause and effect argument is an interesting one. Im not sure I really understand what you mean though. Are you saying that at some level of complexity something develops that can then exert control over the smaller constituents?

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880584 -

TheCow said:
Let's say some creature learns how to create a universe somehow, then you might be able to assume that's how our universe was created


This is an interesting idea....
Because, if we actually do create a computer that truly has "consciousness",
and that can absorb and intelligently use all of the information that will be compiled at that time,
the consciousness of elements and electricity might be able to figure out a way to create a universe....

Then when it did figure it out, and we tried to build it, and then we successfully run the experiment,
we would all become a stretched fragmentation of what we currently are,
stretching thru our own time/space as the new universe began to expand....

:grin:   


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7880664 -

as a self proclaimed agnostic,

i acknowledge the fact that there might be a higher power, or what i truely hope for: a bigger picture.

i also acknowledge the fact that there is nothing after death.



i guess simply put as an agnostic i believe that anything is possible.


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


Edited by igwna (01/15/08 12:49 AM)

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880685 -

"Agnostics are atheists with no balls." - Stephen Colbert

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: igwna]
    #7880699 -

skcorrelyt said:
i guess simply put as an agnostic i believe that anything is possible.


Quote:
i also accept the fact that there is nothing after death.


If you believe anything is possible, why do you accept that there is nothing after death as a fact?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7881385 -

WhiskeyClone said:
skcorrelyt said:
i guess simply put as an agnostic i believe that anything is possible.


Quote:
i also accept the fact that there is nothing after death.


If you believe anything is possible, why do you accept that there is nothing after death as a fact?


right. i meant to write i CAN also accept

edit: actually i meant to write acknowledge the possibility.. woops!
thanks for pointing that out whiskey :thumbup:

edit2: that doesnt make sense either. god damnit, you know what i mean.


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


Edited by igwna (01/15/08 12:51 AM)

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: igwna]
    #7881465 -

I define myself as agnostic, not because I deny the existence of a god, but because I don't trust the ability of man to define a god. All organized religions are based on speculation and hearsay. They all speak of what happens after you die, and of course no one really knows. I dont deny the possibility that everything was created with a purpose, I just dont think that Jesus or Buddha or anyone else did it.


--------------------
:strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard:

-When in Rome, do the Romans.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7882066 -

They can still claim to be agnostic however in the sense of having not felt a deity yet, but it would be illogical for them to call religions fanciful.


Just because I am agnostic doesn't mean I can't have a best guess based on using my best logic. Take Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or the Flying Spaghetti Monster for instance.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7882162 -

Yea,I agree with these replies. I just wanted to try and clarify that agnostics share the same mindset as religious people, they just have not seen their proof yet. I feel there will never be proof because it is a logical impossibility, and so I am an atheist.

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