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OfflineTheCow
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Existence of Agnostics
    #7879026 - 01/14/08 04:14 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

In this post I take agnostics to mean someone who is undecided whether there is a God, specifically the people who claim that they are not atheist because they can't definitively say there is no God. These people claim that if evidence of God was found, they would believe in the God, however since there is no evidence they do not believe in God.

I view this is as having several problems and I do not think they can logically share tenants of atheism and tenants of religion.

An agnostic that is looking for evidence can never logically find any evidence to back up God, because anything that is placed before his/her eyes will be part of this universe to that person. Therefore no matter what happens, i.e burning bush,parting of the ocean, etc.. will have to be assumed to be part of the universe and therefore not brought forth by a deity.
Now if they start believing in a God after seeing something like this, then they are not logically consistent. Many Christians claim to see supernatural things, or feel the touch of Jesus. Yet the agnostics will claim that this is impossible and silly. So to these agnostics where is the line drawn that seperates silly from 'proof of God'? I think there is no line, either you accept that there is a God or you cannot ever claim that something was created by him.

Let me be more clear here: If you reject people's religious choices because you find them silly, or not based in reality. Then no matter what you see or feel, you can't claim it is from God. You have chosen to assume that everything that happens is part of the Universe and can be explained somehow without invoking a God. If you do see something and switch over, then you are logically inconsistent by rejecting lets say the Christians who claim to have felt jesus or seen him, while at the same time accepting your own fanciful occurrences as proof of God.

To bring it into even more of a general statement, some agnostics will simply state the base case that is, since we can never know if there is a God then I can't rule the possibility out. Therefore they are claiming that there is a possibility of supernatural occurrences. These people can therefore not claim that Christianity is false, because it is possible that all the Christians who claim to feel Christ are correct, it is only this person that has not felt it. They can still claim to be agnostic however in the sense of having not felt a deity yet, but it would be illogical for them to call religions fanciful.

However I find that most agnostics feel that all religion is silly, and so they become agnostic and not atheist because they think that since atheism claims there is no God that is the same thing as having faith in a no god scenario. These people as I stated above leave open the possibility of proof in God, however this proof can never happen without themselves assuming that what they have seen is not part of the universe and has arisen outside of it from a God.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879108 - 01/14/08 04:34 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
To bring it into even more of a general statement, some agnostics will simply state the base case that is, since we can never know if there is a God then I can't rule the possibility out. Therefore they are claiming that there is a possibility of supernatural occurrences. These people can therefore not claim that Christianity is false, because it is possible that all the Christians who claim to feel Christ are correct, it is only this person that has not felt it.




I suppose some agnostics believe that a God could exist, but not one that Christians commonly describe.

Do you think somebody could somebody completely reject the possibility of a Christian version of God (an omnipotent, decisionmaking, intervening entity,) while still admit the possibility of a God? Being agnostic does not mean you make no assumptions. (Does it?)

People have different interpretations of what the word 'god' means... why could they not reject some of those interpretations but be open to others?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7879118 - 01/14/08 04:37 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

No I dont see how someone could completely reject the Christian God while still keeping open the possibility of a God. There reasoning is that they have not seen proof, but to these Christians they have seen proof. So they are following the same line of reasoning, so to me it is not logically consistent.

As far as the interpretation of the word God, lets not get into semantics here. I think we know what the God, or deity, or supernatural means


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879751 - 01/14/08 06:40 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

I can speak to both sides of the issue, being an agnostic for about 30 years, and a Christian (Calvinistic, Reformed) for the last 8 years.

While agnostic I always left open the possibility of a God, however I put the chances of that actually being true at like a billion to 1. I generally considered religious people to be self-deluded and foolish. I honestly tried to ask so called "Christians" what they actually believed, but to me it just didn't make any sense at all.

After a few years of psychedelic use I generally felt there must be a spiritual reality. I started to earnestly investigate what the Bible is saying. I just didn't get it. Well long story short, I came to understand sin, righteousness and judgment, and the gospel was revealed to me. From that time forward I understand what the Bible is saying (mostly). It is true that you become a new creation in the new birth. Saving faith is a gift from God, no other way could a die hard agnostic like myself could actually believe it.

From a personal perspective I have the witness of the Holy Spirit within myself, this is something that wasn't true before.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7879798 - 01/14/08 06:48 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Yea, I find that reasonable. But when you were agnostic I am saying that logically you could not claim that the other Christians were wrong. To say that would be to literally tell them, 'you are lying that you have been touched by God' As there being touched by God is exactly what you were leaving open the possibility to. Of course you could still put a probability to them lying.

I guess my whole point of this thread stems from a post made in the science forum where a guy says that he is agnostic because he cannot rule out the possibility of God. I just wanted to clarify what I think that means, as I hear that statement a lot and I think it implies things that people dont take into account initially.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879819 - 01/14/08 06:52 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

I mostly thought they were foolish and deluded. I still think most people who claim to have been "touched by God" in fact have not been, they just imagined that they have been.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7879830 - 01/14/08 06:54 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Well I think that about all of you religious people :shrug:

But if you discount other people you think they are lying, or I guess totally insane.  But to discount the average person, well the average person isn't totally insane.  I guess the average person could be lying.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879846 - 01/14/08 06:56 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

An atheist has faith that there is no god... or if you prefer it with a capital letter... there is no God.

An agnostic believes the jury is out.

This shouldn't be hard to understand... not even for someone who, "Knows for a fact" that there is a god... or is it God?


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Fiddlesticks.



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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879848 - 01/14/08 06:58 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

I think most people are deluded, they are not intentionally lying.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7879855 - 01/14/08 06:58 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Why dont you actually respond to any points I brought up?


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879906 - 01/14/08 07:06 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

I did.

And I am left wondering why Christianity and Atheism were the only two faiths you mentioned.

Quote:

TheCow said:
No I dont see how someone could completely reject the Christian God while still keeping open the possibility of a God.




What about a Buddhist?

A true Buddhist would fit your definition of agnostic... almost to a, "T"... but Buddhism is a faith too... isn't it?

How 'bout a Hindu... or someone from a multi-god faith?


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7879934 - 01/14/08 07:10 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

I am saying that agnostics are similar to religious people. As far as Buddhism, I dont know enough about it. Which is why I am talking about the Christian/Jew/Muslim religions. Although its very possible I could include Buddhism as they certainly aren't atheist so I would reckon it would be similar. Of course a multi-God faith would be the same as Christianity.

Im not sure you read my initial posts? You act like you arent sure what I am arguing


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879973 - 01/14/08 07:18 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Of course a multi-God faith would be the same as Christianity.





No it wouldn't.

Wasn't, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." a commandment? Christians are monotheistic.

You wonder why I don't address your points? Because I disagree with most of them... and I don't feel like spending my time picking them apart point by point.

You obviously could benefit from studying faiths that are NOT based in the Old Testament... until then, I am afraid my objections may offend you. That is not my intent... but it is clear from your replies to my posts that you are looking to argue with me (although I have, at least until this post... only typed six or seven sentences in your thread). I am simply talking about things which appear to be new to you. No need to fight. You started this discussion.

Again... is it any wonder why I haven't addressed your first post point by point?


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7879996 - 01/14/08 07:22 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Are you for real? Are you seriously arguing that Hinduism and Christianity are different religions? Excellent work there my man.
You do realize in this thread I am only talking about people who have faith in a supernatural power? Therefore both Hindu's and Christians are the same, regardless of the other bullshit they want to pander.

I am saying that agnostics are virtually the same as religious people, they just haven't felt the touch of God yet. But its the exact same mentality. They are virgins. Atheism is the only true faith for science.

Now back to whatever knowledge it is you want to impress me with


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880036 - 01/14/08 07:31 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Atheists... as I said in my FIRST post... have faith. They BELIEVE there is NO GOD.

Again... Atheists have FAITH.

We both agree, Christians have FAITH.

Agnostics, by definition, do NOT have to have faith.

THAT is a BIG difference.

So...

I disagree with your entire thesis. No offense... I just do.

Please don't ask me to repeat myself a third time.

I said this ALL in my FIRST post... except in my FIRST POST, I was nice enough to keep my opinions about your thesis to myself.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7880052 - 01/14/08 07:33 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

I cant imagine how its being nice to keep your opinions about the substance of my thread to yourself, and then instead just ramble about something else. Thats a new one to me.

Why dont you try and refute me on a logical level? My thread is tarnished by this. Youve ruined my prom night, my dress is all torn up, daddy says only for my husband


Edited by TheCow (01/14/08 07:46 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880097 - 01/14/08 07:41 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

I consider myself agnostic because I am open to the possibility that the bang was the deliberate act of a consciousness. It has nothing to do with supernatural, soul, or afterlife.

Like nearly all of philosophical debate, its a matter of definitions. If the bang was the act of a consciousness, then I would say there is a god (or at least a creator). Even if that consciousness didnt know we existed in the universe it created.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880109 - 01/14/08 07:43 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

It is only a thread.

Like I said... if I replied to EVERY ONE OF YOUR POINTS... you CLEARLY would have been offended. Your behavior is confirming my theory in real time.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

You want to have a discussion? Then don't question the integrity of the people who actually spend the time to reply to your posts.


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Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: DieCommie]
    #7880117 - 01/14/08 07:45 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

So you think there could be a supernatural entity. Then can you discount Christians? By your own logic this Christian God might have created the universe, and is now contacting certain people. How do you refute that? See the problem I have with agnostics is that if you claim that you are waiting for proof, then you are just allowing religious people to claim they have already gotten it. I am atheist because anything that happens to me no matter how fantastical I will always assume has an explanation without evoking a supernatural power.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880133 - 01/14/08 07:48 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

An agnostic, by definition, is not waiting for proof... they just acknowledge there IS NO PROOF YET... and they CAN'T PREDICT THE FUTURE.

To an agnostic... god (or God) is merely a POSSIBILITY.

Seems logical to me...


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Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7880145 - 01/14/08 07:49 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
An agnostic, by definition, is not waiting for proof... they just acknowledge there IS NO PROOF YET




But what constitutes proof then? Surely a Christian claiming he felt Jesus or saw Jesus counts as proof to them? Where is the line drawn?


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880186 - 01/14/08 07:56 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:
An agnostic, by definition, is not waiting for proof... they just acknowledge there IS NO PROOF YET




But what constitutes proof then? Surely a Christian claiming he felt Jesus or saw Jesus counts as proof to them? Where is the line drawn?




Just 'cause it feels like proof to them... proves nothing.

Proof is a SCIENTIFIC term.

SPIRITuality exists in the mind. Spirits by definition are intangible. You can't hold, see, or touch a spirit. If god is PROVEN to be REAL... then god would cease to be SPIRITual. Once THAT happens... we will have PROOF of god.

Until then, the TRUE agnostics will have a case. They're hedging their bets... in a LOGICAL way.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7880202 - 01/14/08 08:00 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

But how does one go about proving God? It is not possible by any stretch of the imagination. There is no way to prove God in any way, bring up any example and there will be an reason for it happening that does not include a supernatural power. I will always claim that anything that happens in this universe resides in the universe. That is the only logical explanation for anything to me. God can never be proven in a scientific way, under any stretch of the meaning of scientific proof.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880221 - 01/14/08 08:04 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

That is almost exactly what I am saying here.

God COULD be proven in a scientific way... but don't hold your breath... and if it ever happened... God would cease to be SPIRITual.

An interesting quandary.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880224 - 01/14/08 08:04 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

This has nothing to do with a supernatural entity. The broadest definition of god need not be supernatural. (of course nothing is supernatural... if we encounter an apparent supernatural phenomenon we simply redefine nature)

Obviously people's feelings arnt proof. What constitutes proof is what normally constitutes proof... independent verification with repeatable predictable phenomenon (experiment and/or observation) and peer review coupled with consensuses. Why should it be any different then normal science? That is where the line is drawn.


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7880226 - 01/14/08 08:06 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

I dont think its reconcilable. My only point with this thread is to clarify what being an agnostic means. I think a lot of people who are against religion and pro science choose it. They dont choose atheism because they think it shows a faith similar to religion. However atheisms faith is different from religions, whereas agnosticism includes a belief in faith that is exactly the same as religion.

In the end its just labels however, but what else is there to do but argue?


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880232 - 01/14/08 08:07 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

If we couldn't argue... forums would be rather boring. :wink:


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: DieCommie]
    #7880240 - 01/14/08 08:07 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Yes but how would one go about verifying God. Say God came down, and said Commie I am God. He then made some vases float or turned water into wine. Now you had scientists come over and he would do this every time. Is that God to you? My point is, what has to happen for he to be God? As I said I will always claim that whatever we are viewing is a phenomenon intrinsic to the universe, and that there is no reason to bring god into it


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880315 - 01/14/08 08:27 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

What do you call a person who believes that no one knows anything and everyone who has ever lived and claim they knew is 100% completely full of shit?


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #7880362 - 01/14/08 08:38 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

STAL


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InvisibleDieCommie


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880417 - 01/14/08 08:51 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

.


Edited by DieCommie (11/11/16 09:47 AM)


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: DieCommie]
    #7880492 - 01/14/08 09:11 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

To address the first part:
The error in your thinking as I see it is that if you claim that you can prove God exists then you leave the playing field wide open for interpretation. Is not Intelligent Design a similar concept? The world is too complex to have developed on its own, therefore that is proof of God? Your example where God tells us to do something and an outcome occurs is not proof of God. It is proof of an occurrence that is sure, but not one supernatural. There could be many other explanations for why that occurrence happened. If you claim that God can be provable then you have to define what acceptable proof is. This is not possible under any scientific circumstance, I think if you reason this point through you will see what I am saying, therefore I will leave this alone for now.

As for your remark about something figuring out what caused the Big Bang, well I can see that as being God. Let's say some creature learns how to create a universe somehow, then you might be able to assume that's how our universe was created if you had relevant data. At that point you would be God to that universe you created. Although this is a far fetched result and really doesn't have bearing on us trying to determine if agnosticism and religion share basic tenants. It is interesting to think about though, but if I became God I couldn't blame my creations to assume I didnt exist, in fact Id be disappointed if they did assume that.

The cause and effect argument is an interesting one. Im not sure I really understand what you mean though. Are you saying that at some level of complexity something develops that can then exert control over the smaller constituents?


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880584 - 01/14/08 09:40 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Let's say some creature learns how to create a universe somehow, then you might be able to assume that's how our universe was created




This is an interesting idea....
Because, if we actually do create a computer that truly has "consciousness",
and that can absorb and intelligently use all of the information that will be compiled at that time,
the consciousness of elements and electricity might be able to figure out a way to create a universe....

Then when it did figure it out, and we tried to build it, and then we successfully run the experiment,
we would all become a stretched fragmentation of what we currently are,
stretching thru our own time/space as the new universe began to expand....

:grin:   


>^;;^<


--------------------
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Offlineigwna
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7880664 - 01/14/08 10:00 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

as a self proclaimed agnostic,

i acknowledge the fact that there might be a higher power, or what i truely hope for: a bigger picture.

i also acknowledge the fact that there is nothing after death.



i guess simply put as an agnostic i believe that anything is possible.


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I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



Edited by igwna (01/15/08 12:49 AM)


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880685 - 01/14/08 10:06 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

"Agnostics are atheists with no balls." - Stephen Colbert


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: igwna]
    #7880699 - 01/14/08 10:09 PM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

skcorrelyt said:

i guess simply put as an agnostic i believe that anything is possible.




Quote:

i also accept the fact that there is nothing after death.




If you believe anything is possible, why do you accept that there is nothing after death as a fact?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlineigwna
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7881385 - 01/15/08 12:49 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:

skcorrelyt said:

i guess simply put as an agnostic i believe that anything is possible.




Quote:

i also accept the fact that there is nothing after death.




If you believe anything is possible, why do you accept that there is nothing after death as a fact?




right. i meant to write i CAN also accept

edit: actually i meant to write acknowledge the possibility.. woops!
thanks for pointing that out whiskey :thumbup:

edit2: that doesnt make sense either. god damnit, you know what i mean.


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.



Edited by igwna (01/15/08 12:51 AM)


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OfflineSaulGood
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: igwna]
    #7881465 - 01/15/08 01:21 AM (16 years, 18 days ago)

I define myself as agnostic, not because I deny the existence of a god, but because I don't trust the ability of man to define a god. All organized religions are based on speculation and hearsay. They all speak of what happens after you die, and of course no one really knows. I dont deny the possibility that everything was created with a purpose, I just dont think that Jesus or Buddha or anyone else did it.


--------------------
:strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard::strokebeard:

-When in Rome, do the Romans.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7882066 - 01/15/08 07:51 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

They can still claim to be agnostic however in the sense of having not felt a deity yet, but it would be illogical for them to call religions fanciful.


Just because I am agnostic doesn't mean I can't have a best guess based on using my best logic. Take Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or the Flying Spaghetti Monster for instance.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Icelander]
    #7882162 - 01/15/08 08:25 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Yea,I agree with these replies. I just wanted to try and clarify that agnostics share the same mindset as religious people, they just have not seen their proof yet. I feel there will never be proof because it is a logical impossibility, and so I am an atheist.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7882173 - 01/15/08 08:31 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
I just wanted to try and clarify that agnostics share the same mindset as religious people, they just have not seen their proof yet.




I still don't see how you draw this conclusion. To me, agnosticism is open-mindedness on the question of god's existence, while theism or atheism is making an assumption one way or the other.

Agnostics are not necessarily looking for or expecting proof either way, they just don't feel a need to come to a conclusion about it.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7882196 - 01/15/08 08:39 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I am saying that there can never be proof. If you see something and assume that you have proof of God, then how is that different than a Christian person seeing something and claiming its from Jesus? They leave open the possibility that one day they will come to see or know God, they just haven't found it yet. Born again Christians claim this all the time, they found God.

In my opinion, anything that happens in this universe has to arise from it. So no matter what I see, it will never be proof of God. That is a meaningless phrase, if someone sees something and then becomes religious that's fine, but the mindset is the same as a religious person. You cant have it both ways, either you accept that everything you will see is based in the universe, or you can't blow off religious people because they were only doing exactly what you were, except they found their proof.

Peer reviewed scientific proof of God is not possible, God could come down and do anything and it would never pass sciences tests. Id sooner believe an alien has the power of mindcontrol over me than I would a God came down and made me see things.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7882235 - 01/15/08 08:57 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

What kind of proof do you need? (This is a response from just reading the 3rd page of this thread) If you got some kind of enlightened feeling... you know, that feeling that everyone is striving for in life (Through meditation, church, doing good deeds, blah blah blah, and even tripping!) that feeling when you know you're connected to everything and an important part of the universe.... once you've felt that, would that be proof to you that there is something greater? to me, that greater thing is the connection between everything, and i think all religions are going somewhere with it to a sense, but they've all fucked up somewhere.... so what category does that put me in?

I think if all of humanity admitted that they have no idea what the hell is going on, and all try to put our experiences and knowledge together, with our technology, then we might actually get to some truth... you get what i'm saying?


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7882246 - 01/15/08 09:02 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Yea I do get what you are saying, however the example you posted gives me no indication that there is a God. You are looking for proof of God, so you can put yourself in Agnostic as you are religious but have not found proof


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7882302 - 01/15/08 09:17 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I never said I was looking for proof of god. I don't know if I am religious, all I know is that I have seen things out of this reality and I have felt a sense of well being and 'oneness' (for lack of better words) with the earth, and i know that my connection with nature and the universe is strong.... IS that god?

Are you just talking about god in the sense of god being an all knowing personified being?


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7882327 - 01/15/08 09:27 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I am talking about:

God /gɒd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[god] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, god·ded, god·ding, interjection
–noun
1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3. (lowercase) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4. (often lowercase) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5. Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
6. (lowercase) an image of a deity; an idol.
7. (lowercase) any deified person or object.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7882338 - 01/15/08 09:31 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I don't know if I necessarily think of god like that. I don't know of a creator. I currently want to think that the universe is infinite, but I still feel spirituality.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7882404 - 01/15/08 09:50 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

I don't know if I necessarily think of god like that. I don't know of a creator.




That's the commonly accepted definition so usually when you say god people think of IT. :smirk:
That's why dictionaries appeared in the first place, in order to be able to know what the fuck we're talking about and avoiding confusion.
Kick ass idea if you ask me. :shrug:

Quote:

I currently want to think that the universe is infinite, but I still feel spirituality.




Why?
Does the idea of an infinite universe usually makes one stop feeling spirituality? :sherlock:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7882474 - 01/15/08 10:12 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

i guess that's the difference between you and me. When I reach enlightenment, the feeling of being connected to everything, and the obvious fact that we are a part of the universe, that's where my spirituality comes from. I can have that and still feel that the universe is infinite. Buddhists believe that there is no beginning to the universe, and obviously they are still spiritual.

And the definition of god is a good example why our language limits us to a lot of possibilities of spirituality. Interpretation is just as important. My interpretation of god is different from the definition apparently.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7882494 - 01/15/08 10:17 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

This is why I choose not to have interpretations of an ambigious word that everyone tries to assign a different interpretation to. Sometimes you can't fit the universe into a boot, especially when you can simply sit back and gaze into the sky and directly perceive the universe, you know? :craven:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7882523 - 01/15/08 10:22 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Not interpreting things for yourself is only limiting yourself.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7882582 - 01/15/08 10:29 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Yes but this is NOT philosophy :hehehe:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7882587 - 01/15/08 10:30 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

You clearly didn't interpret what was intended to be conveyed. :hehehe:

Unless you were just making a quick statement that had no relevance to what I said.... :sherlock:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7882608 - 01/15/08 10:33 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I think that you may have a basic misunderstanding of the term "agnostic."

Quote:

Agnostic
One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.




This is not the same as saying one would believe in God if only someone offered proof. Agnostics are not waiting for someone to prove that they should believe, they are saying that it is simply NOT POSSIBLE to know. Atheists are claiming that they KNOW that God does not exist, and theists are claiming that they KNOW that God does exist.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7882624 - 01/15/08 10:37 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

.....still forgetting about the spirituality in the forum?

spirituality in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit. Spiritual matters are those involving humankind's ultimate nature, not merely as material biological organisms, but as beings with a unique relationship to that which is beyond both time and the material world. As such the spiritual is traditionally contrasted with the material, the temporal and the worldly . A perceived sense of connection forms a central defining characteristic of spirituality — connection to a metaphysical reality greater than oneself, which may include an emotional experience of religious awe and reverence, or such states as satori or Nirvana.
Spirituality may involve perceiving or wishing to perceive life as more important ("higher"), more complex or more integrated with one's world view; as contrasted with the merely sensual.
Certain forms of spirituality can appear more like philosophy: note in particular the scope of metaphysics.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7882635 - 01/15/08 10:40 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

No.
Spirituality is awareness.
How can awareness be separated from logic and critical thinking? Don't you see the error in here?
How are we supposed to remain aware when we stop making use of coherence?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7882649 - 01/15/08 10:44 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
No.
Spirituality is awareness.
How can awareness be separated from logic and critical thinking? Don't you see the error in here?
How are we supposed to remain aware when we stop making use of coherence?




:thumbup:

A mind that is incapable of reason and critical, conscious, unobstructed thought is incapable of conducting awareness and understanding of reality, subsequently, directly impacting one's experience of reality, thus negating any chance of spirituality blossoming forth. Glad to see someone understands this. :yesnod:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7882658 - 01/15/08 10:45 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Glad to see someone understands this. :yesnod:




Glad to see you :tripping:

:heartpump:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7882661 - 01/15/08 10:46 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

:hug:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7882726 - 01/15/08 11:01 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

My statement on spirituality doesn't necessarily contradict that spirituality is awareness. Nether one of us has to be wrong. Spirituality uses logic, but it is also BEYOND logic; our comprehension of logic hasn't quite grasped the whole of spirituality... if you haven't broken through and completely opened your third eye, then I can understand why you don't know what I'm talking about.

And notice how almost every thread disintegrates to just you two making kissy faces as soon as either one of you chime in. Because you turn the thread into pointless bullshit. This is absurd and I don't see how it's in the boundaries of the rules.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7882953 - 01/15/08 11:35 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

And what is exactly BEYOND logic?
And where s the third eye located?
These assertions are FULL OF SHIT.
Blank words to fill in the gaps in thinking.

Quote:

And notice how almost every thread disintegrates to just you two making kissy faces as soon as either one of you chime in. Because you turn the thread into pointless bullshit. This is absurd and I don't see how it's in the boundaries of the rules.




I wonder why you would get bothered by it, since we both replied to the given topic as well. :wink:
:eek:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7882960 - 01/15/08 11:36 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Love Cap said:
if you haven't broken through and completely opened your third eye, then I can understand why you don't know what I'm talking about.




That is a bit presumptious, don't you think? :shocked:

Quote:


And notice how almost every thread disintegrates to just you two making kissy faces as soon as either one of you chime in. Because you turn the thread into pointless bullshit. This is absurd and I don't see how it's in the boundaries of the rules.




It is within the margins of not belonging, unless it gets drawn out, or someone else feels the need to constantly comment on all of these aspects of other people's personal nature. :lol:

Have you ever read into relaxation techniques?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7882966 - 01/15/08 11:38 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
And where s the third eye located?




I think it is in someone's left nostril... :strokebeard:

You have to be careful when you sneeze or your soul escapes! :shocked:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7882974 - 01/15/08 11:39 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Yes, and materialists have chronic sinus infections.  :lol:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fireworks_god]
    #7882992 - 01/15/08 11:41 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

That could easily explain why the Eskimos kiss the way they do


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinecrumblebum
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7883068 - 01/15/08 11:58 AM (16 years, 17 days ago)

After reading the initial post, I really have no idea what you're trying to postulate.

An agnostic makes no assertations about the existence or non existence of the supernatural, given that no proof can be had to one conclusion or another. It's the spiritual branch of radical skepticism.

Atheism is the assertation that nothing supernatural exists.

As to which is the true religeon of science? What a dumb thing to assert. Gregor Mendel, the progenator of the field of heredity and thus genetics, was a Christian monk.

If anything, agnosticism would be the best faith for a scientist, the assertation that something may or may not be true, but not enough data exists to make a conclusion. Atheism, the insistance that the supernatural is not possible, isn't very scientific, as it comes to a firm conclusion with no evidence pro or con.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: crumblebum]
    #7883469 - 01/15/08 01:28 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

who's to say that the supernatural doesn't come somewhere from space?! just a thought.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7883687 - 01/15/08 02:29 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

"Space" is part of the physical/natural world. Therefore, nothing that occurs in space could be considered supernatural, that is if you define the supernatural as being "above and beyond what is natural."

From wikipedia:

"Nature, in the broadest sense, is equivalent to the natural world, physical universe, material world or material universe."

Even if we flew to Jupiter and met an alien that could turn himself into any animal, simply by writing the animal's name down on a miniature chalk board, his actions would be still be natural, as they are occurring in the natural world and are still governed by the physical laws of the universe in which the hypothetical alien exists. We might not understand how the alien performs this feat, but that does not make it supernatural.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: it stars saddam]
    #7883696 - 01/15/08 02:31 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I actually prefer this definition of supernatural: "of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity." It seems whenever talk of the supernatural comes about, God tends to be rearing his ugly head in the background somewhere.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: it stars saddam]
    #7883715 - 01/15/08 02:34 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

it stars saddam said:


Even if we flew to Jupiter and met an alien that could turn himself into any animal, simply by writing the animal's name down on a miniature chalk board, his actions would be still be natural, as they are occurring in the natural world and are still governed by the physical laws of the universe in which the hypothetical alien exists. We might not understand how the alien performs this feat, but that does not make it supernatural.




right, so what i'm saying is, it is a possibility that everything supernatural, every part of imagination that has been imagined, could exist somewhere in space, in the natural world, or another realm... almost like imagination land! haha, kidding!


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7883718 - 01/15/08 02:35 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

so i suppose that would mean that nothing is supernatural


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: crumblebum]
    #7884264 - 01/15/08 04:09 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I stated somewhere in here that what brought this thread originally was a poster in the science forum who claimed that he is agnostic because he hasn't found proof yet, but if there was scientific proof of God he would believe in God. This is agnosticism as I understood it, and as a dictionary spelled it out for me. If an alternate definition of agnosticism is that it is impossible to ever know that there is a God, then my post doesn't apply to that. I am simply trying to point out that if an agnostic thinks it is possible that we can find God, then that belief carries baggage with it that I have pointed out in this thread.

As far as scientists being religious: Yes it is true some scientists are religious, however that is their choice and they ignore the scientific method in that area of their life. That's fine, what I meant by choice for scientists was to apply logical reasoning to all areas of life which would exclude religion.


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7884308 - 01/15/08 04:17 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I think science need to explore the reasoning for religion a lot further, and also, they need to explore more into psychedelics and the altered mind set.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7884388 - 01/15/08 04:34 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

A method (science) has no needs.

What is to prevent YOU from researching what you believe needs further exploring? Why should SOMEONE ELSE do what you feel is important?

*Note to audience: This is a variant on EgoDeath's "Why doesn't science research the UFO phenomenon?"*


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7884787 - 01/15/08 05:46 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

well, for one thing, complete knowledge isn't too easily available. for example, i have to PAY a lot of money for schooling to get deep into science. i'm doing so, but it's a long process. also, psychedelics aren't even legal to research soooo that's a problem in science.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7884821 - 01/15/08 05:53 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

They AREN'T legal to research?

Even the USA allows limited research... and countries with legalized psychedelics...


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Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7884911 - 01/15/08 06:13 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

eh you dont have to pay a lot to get into science.  Get yourself the following books:
Calculus, Vector Calculus, Linear algebra, intro to physics, mechanics, electromagnetism, quantum physics, and a book on chemistry if you want.    Youll be good to go. Hell Ill even tell you the best of each one of those if you want.  Itll run you a decent amount even for the used books, but is hardly a huge amount.

Or just go to a library :shrug:


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7884954 - 01/15/08 06:21 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

you have a point, and maybe i'll do so after i'm done with schooling... it sucks how much time it takes up, i haven't been able to do any outside reading..

...but no, mushrooms, lsd, dmt, none are even legal to research. fucked up isn't it?!

seems like anything to do with the mind should be very important to science


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7884973 - 01/15/08 06:25 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

http://www.maps.org/research/

Welcome to the 21st Century :tongue:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7884983 - 01/15/08 06:27 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

I was just reading a book and I came across a passage that made me think of this thread. For what it's worth, here it is:

For T.H. Huxley, who coined the term in 1869, agnosticism was as demanding as any moral, philosophical, or religious creed. Rather than a creed, though, he saw it as a method realized through "the rigorous application of a single principle." He expressed this principle positively as: "Follow your reason as far as it will take you", and negatively as: "Do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable."

~Stephen Batchelor, Buddhism Without Beliefs


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


Edited by WhiskeyClone (01/15/08 10:05 PM)


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7885021 - 01/15/08 06:35 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Buddhism without beliefs, sounds like a very interesting book!


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
    #7885100 - 01/15/08 06:49 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Love Cap said:
seems like anything to do with the mind should be very important to science




It is important to science, it is the lawmakers and the DEA don't see eye to eye with that view....    :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineLove Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7885142 - 01/15/08 06:56 PM (16 years, 17 days ago)

true. i wish there was more of a movement on this! i know the spirit molecule got out, we need more of that!


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