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Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe
    #3101808 -

Assuming that the big bang origin of the universe is true, what are the spiritual implications of such a beginning...and its ending?

Is what we conceive of as pure consciousness also a product of the big bang (i.e. 'the light that shines in the darkness')? If so, all that we are has a begining and it will have an end. Having lost my identity as a single organism and realizing myself to be the universe itself, I find that I am somewhat troubled by the idea that the universe may be open...expanding forever...galaxies receeding beyond sight of one another...burning up the last remnants of fuel...matter decaying over the course of aeons...turning darker and colder...expanding forever at an exponentially increasing rate...no more stars...no more planets...no more life...no more show...forever and ever and ever.

This is, according to cosmologists, the most likely scenario for our universe. A new force has been discovered which is accelerating the expansion of our universe. This may mean that the universe will not collapse again into a big crunch...will not poise itself for yet another creation cycle. The future looks infinitely cold, dark and above all lonely. An infinitely long nightmare from which God will never wake.

Does this trouble you?

I'm kind of holding on to hope that we will discover that there is still enough dark matter in the universe to halt the expansion and bring it all together again. But it may be a vain hope.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3101837 -

Fortunately, there is so much that we don't know. I mean, maybe all the calculations that astronomers do right now are based off of illusions and we are completely wrong about the true nature of the universe.


By the way, I believe this is my first post.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3101841 -

i try not to let things like that bug me. what comes comes, what doesnt doesnt. if somthing is gonna wipe us out so be it. if what our culture believes in turns out to be false, wouldnt be the first time.

in reality how many of us can say for sure that any of it is real? have we ever left the planet...we really have no way of knowng there is a space. or maybe its one big truman show.

man im tired stoned and spaced out, hope it made sense.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: kadakuda]
    #3102612 -

Well look at it this way. We exist. People say that we can't even prove our own existance, and such. Even if this is one big dream the fact that it is a dream is still something, we are here. No matter what happens, even when space and time are gone, we existed (thats kind of a mindblow thing to say if you think of time not existing, but stick with me). But just that fact gives me a little comfort, but I don't know if it will help you.


--------------------
"I believe that if people would learn to use LSD's vision-inducing capability more wisely, under suitable conditions, in medical practice and in conjunction with meditation, then in the future this problem child could become a wonderchild."
- - Albert Hofmann

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3102652 -

The 'cold death' theory disturbs me very much.  Honestly, I think that is the purpose of conscious life: to save the universe.  If we can figure out how to control gravity, we can keep the universe from expanding too fast.  We can save stellar evolution. 

too bad everyone is more interested in watching game shows where they make you eat bugs.  Oh well.  Its just the universe, right?  :nonono:

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3102738 -

Quote:
DoctorJ said:that is the purpose of conscious life: to save the universe. If we can figure out how to control gravity, we can keep the universe from expanding too fast. We can save stellar evolution.



Wow, that's a trippy thought. I don't doubt that it's possible for us to halt the expansion, but I would venture to guess that we would have to be able to get 'behind the scenes' of the universe in order to do it.

I read a story similar to that idea. The main protagonist 'victor' travels to the center of the universe at the end of time and discovers all the avatars (Buddha, Christ, etc.), composed of all thier followers, engaged in a plan to keep the universe at this optimal state fluctuating between the disolvement of all individuality in the 'big crunch' and a step away where individuality returns. Things go badly.

Doesn't really fit now if there isn't going to be a crunch but the theme of controlling the universe is similar!

In any event, I'm happy to have found someone sympathetic with my uneasyness of all this 'cold death' stuff.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

Edited by Source (09/07/04 10:29 AM)

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3102746 -

dude if we could figure out gravity we would have the whole universe on lockdown.

I really do think its our purpose. Like when a farmer has kids, and those kids go on to tend the farm when their father gets too old. God is Dead. But he gave us everything we need to survive, and maintain his creation. All we have to do is reach out and grab it.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: 4369875]
    #3102747 -

Thanks! What bothers me is that I feel that I myself am tied to the fate of the universe.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3102756 -

arent we all?

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3102781 -

If you think of the universe as a simulation program, maybe it's possible to somehow access the code that is running the program. That way rather than manhandling the universe via outer technology, we could control it at its source. The effects of such a tinkering would be immediate and span the entire universe!

Lets do it.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3102784 -

I dunno... maybe I just don't understand anything concerning the nature of higher dimensions, and I'm completely stuck in the sense of space (although the sense of time can be altered rather easily), but I still don't grasp the thought of nothing beyond our universe... our universe is expanding into what? It still fucks with my head SO fucking much to think about..... perhaps there are other "levels" that this universe is merely a part of, or something... otherwise, I remain confused... :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3102788 -

DoctorJ said:
arent we all?


Undoubtedly, but most people don't realize it. They just figure 'oh well, by then I'll be dead.'


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3102792 -

ahhh, "the virtue of selfishness" :rolleyes:

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3102830 -

fireworks_god said:
I still don't grasp the thought of nothing beyond our universe... our universe is expanding into what? It still fucks with my head SO fucking much to think about..... perhaps there are other "levels" that this universe is merely a part of, or something... otherwise, I remain confused...


Yeah, don't try too hard. I get a dizzy feeling when I try to comprehend the incomrehensible. There must be at least one more spacial dimension into which the universe is curving (and expanding?) as evidenced by the 'fact' that light bends around gravity. Light follows the curve of the universe into the fourth spacial dimension!


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Stinky]
    #3102860 -

Hey! Thanks for the honor of your first post! Yeah, it may turn out that they are wrong about it. Still, I think it is interesting to consider the implications on the psyche as we move historically from being the center of a universe created six thousand years ago awaiting judgement, to being a planet revolving around a star at the center of the universe, to being a solar system swirling along the outer edge of a galaxy at the center of the universe, to being a somewhat typical solar system amidst hundreds of billions of solar systems in our galaxy which is itself only one of trillions of galaxies in a universe with no center that is possibly expanding forever. (This is following the developement of western thought only)

Real or not, mankind has definitely been psychologically dethroned by science!


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

Edited by Source (09/07/04 11:01 AM)

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3102911 -

Source said:
There must be at least one more spacial dimension into which the universe is curving (and expanding?) as evidenced by the 'fact' that light bends around gravity.  Light follows the curve of the universe into the fourth spacial dimension!


An interesting thought. :wink:

Perhaps it could be thought that there is a dimension encompassing all other dimensions, and that it can control the expansion and the contractions? Or something.... I'm in w-a-y over my head.  :shocked:  :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3102968 -

"Assuming that the big bang origin of the universe is true, what are the spiritual implications of such a beginning...and its ending?

Is what we conceive of as pure consciousness also a product of the big bang (i.e. 'the light that shines in the darkness')? If so, all that we are has a begining and it will have an end. Having lost my identity as a single organism and realizing myself to be the universe itself, I find that I am somewhat troubled by the idea that the universe may be open...expanding forever...galaxies receeding beyond sight of one another...burning up the last remnants of fuel...matter decaying over the course of aeons...turning darker and colder...expanding forever at an exponentially increasing rate...no more stars...no more planets...no more life...no more show...forever and ever and ever.

This is, according to cosmologists, the most likely scenario for our universe. A new force has been discovered which is accelerating the expansion of our universe. This may mean that the universe will not collapse again into a big crunch...will not poise itself for yet another creation cycle. The future looks infinitely cold, dark and above all lonely. An infinitely long nightmare from which God will never wake.

Does this trouble you?"

Why should this trouble you, if your the universe, then your infinite, and you see everything the way it is, so you would understand why your expanding, and you only then know its the best feeling in the world, (your thinking in a 3 dimentionsal sense) :wink:

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Source]
    #3103080 -

perhaps every single point on "the map" is the center of the universe, if it is indeed infinite.

i think cosmologists and astronomers are contributing to the grand illusion of space.

i hold by the idea that spce is an illusion, correspondance is an illusion and that time is an illusion (among other illusions).

i dont believe space can be infinitly expanding into nothing... The Void does exist, but not outside the universe, it exists just behind it.

answer? anything scientists tell me about the universe will not trouble me.

as far as being tied to the fate of the universe... we are... but the universe is infinite. as are we. so i am not worried about our connected fate. i trust in the universe....

and as much as i would like to become the hero archetype, travel space find the knowledge to save the universe and battle the void for control... i know thats not whats going to happen, because it doesnt need to happen.

i commend cosmologists for their imagination and creativity, as i commend all of you folks here as well...

but i just dont believe that is the case.

peace


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.

~Casil



:cactus:

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Todcasil]
    #3103159 -

I cannot write off the universe as only an illusion although the way we perceive the universe may be an illusion (through the belief that we are seperate from it). Even if it WERE an illusion, with no baring on the eternal, I think it would still be relevant to pay attention to what the illusion is showing. And to the best of our ability at observation it is showing us a nightmarish end...eternal and dark.

It may be that the universe shows us what we are preconcieved to see. So the fact that we are seeing this 'cold death' may speak more about ourselves as a single species than about the universe 'out there'.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Source]
    #3103192 -

your second statement seems beautiful to me...

we are seeing what is inside us. if we feel cold and dead, we will see cold and dead.

i just cant see that...

also... you are correct... it is the way we percieve the universe, not the universe itself. i said that the ideas of space corrrespondance and time were illusions, so i am in agreeance with you.

and to what degree does that help you to see what you beleive might be the end?

does that let you know you are seeking sprituality/enlightenment.zen/good times for no reason?

you say it best "what youre searching for is whats searching".

you are a mirror of the universe my friend. thnik about that... or not. at death youll get all your answers.

peace


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.

~Casil



:cactus:

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Source]
    #3103200 -

so whats the problem?

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Todcasil]
    #3103285 -

Yes, the subject is a mirror reflecting the object which is a mirror reflecting the subject...

To be honest, subjectively my eternal fate feels cold, empty and lonely.  Just as the eternal fate of the universe apears to be cold, empty and lonely.

Lately though, I am comming to realize that the universe is whatever I make it to be.  This seems to be the lesson thrown at me from all corners of my life.  If I can find harmony in myself, there will be harmony in the world.  I know this probably sounds megalomaniacal but hey, it's MY universe.  I AM the only observer here  :wink: !


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Source]
    #3103555 -

To be honest, subjectively my eternal fate feels cold, empty and lonely. Just as the eternal fate of the universe apears to be cold, empty and lonely.

Lately though, I am comming to realize that the universe is whatever I make it to be. This seems to be the lesson thrown at me from all corners of my life. If I can find harmony in myself, there will be harmony in the world. I know this probably sounds megalomaniacal but hey, it's MY universe. I AM the only observer here  !

There you go :wink:

the answer is always in from of you, you just have to accept it

be safe

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: WhiteRussian]
    #3103693 -

good conclusion source..

peace & understanding are key


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.

~Casil



:cactus:

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: WhiteRussian]
    #3103746 -

Well what if what you make out the universe to be for yourself is only an illusion?
What if the universe really is awaiting for a cold and lonely death with no meaning to it? this would mean Source is hiding the truth fom himslef by making it seem what it isn't...just a thought...his problems have been bothering me since the last time i shroomed, these questions are eating me from the inside, and i'm real skeptic on getting all the answers when you die.


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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Source]
    #3103769 -

I think the Universe is just breathing.
Maybe it doesn't expand forever.. eventually it reaches critical mass, like all things in nature, and reverses polarity. Expand, pause, Contract. Repeat for eternity?

At least you would hope that the infinitely omniscient consciousness that is all-that-is, would be focused towards life and love and evolution and learning and wisdom and progression. In order to achieve that progression you need movement an exchanges of energy to learn from.

There is a natural balance of the yin and the yang, that is consistent from the smallest molecule to the largest universe. This balance is in our own breathing and energy system, and in the forces of nature.

The universe does not expand forever, and I don't think the Big Bang was the beginning of it, rather, a result of it. Big Bangs happen. It will expand, and then it will contract until it is one again. Then it will expand again.


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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Todcasil]
    #3103792 -

:thumbup:


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Shroomism]
    #3103806 -

first of all, I think the 'big crunch' theory has not been borne out by observation: If there were going to be a red shift, it would have already happened by now.

second, even if the universe went in and out, if it were to go out and then back in, much data would be lost. It would be a tragedy.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3103819 -

data? I'm talking about the perpetual creation and destruction of the cosmos

it would probably take place over a reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaallly long time if that wouldn't make it such a tragedy.


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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Shroomism]
    #3103823 -

Yeah, I agree. The oscillating universe is a very satisfying idea...consistent with metaphyisical ideas about God, creation and destruction. But alas, according to cosmologists the evidence is pointing toward the open, ever expanding universe.

Not that they might not be wrong, or at least not privy to all the secret forces of the universe.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Source]
    #3103852 -

Either way, we can be content in the fact that life kicks ass.


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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Shroomism]
    #3103940 -

True dat :cool:


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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: deff]
    #3104517 -

amen brudda


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.

~Casil



:cactus:

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Source]
    #3104804 -

My current pet theory is that our Universe is a bubble, or deformation, on the surface of a higher-dimensional membrane. I came to this idea after reading the book The Fabric of the Cosmos, by Brian Green.

The membrane itself consits of the prime energy source, what I would refer to as God. I will not choose an exact number of dimensons present, though it is probably at least 10. All dimensions are curled in upon themselves with diameters smaller than the plank length. The exact energy level of any given point on the membrane jitters on a quantum level. This energy is tied to the only force of nature in existence, which I will also refer to as God, and which "contains" all of the known fundamental forces in this Universe (and possibly others) in a supersymmetrical configuration. One of these forces, on its own, causes rapid expansion of dimensions, it makes them uncurl to a certain degree. Now as the energy level of these forces is jittering on a quantum level, there are always tiny quantum regions that undergo rapid expansion (what cosmologists refer to as "inflation") all over the place. A "region" is a section of membrane where the instantaneous energy level jiggles above a threshold value momentarily at every point in the region. Welcome to the Multiverse.

When a region undergoes inflation, the total area of the region at start of inflation determines the ammount of energy present in the region. From the moment the region undergoes inflation until the moment the region collapses back into supersymmetry it can be considered a closed system. So all energy present at the moment of inflation is the only energy available for the inflating "universe". This in turn determines how much matter will condense out of the energy, should conditions be right in the universe for this to happen. Now, the exact state of the region at the moment of inflation determines everything about the internal characteristics of the universe. The exact state of the region depends on the quantum jitters which are, as quantum things go, completely random. This means that each universe which undergoes inflation will be randomly different.

In our Universe, the inflation field was over the threshold value in four of the dimensions available, so we have four large extended dimensions today. All the remaning dimensions still exist in our Universe but remain curled up beyond the Plank length. Cosmologists often wondered how gravity ever got a foothold in the early universe. If all space expanded equally at first, then the matter distribution throughout the space should have been constant, giving gravity no centers to form clumps of matter in. Well as inflation began, the energy levels throughout the region (ie: throughout each dimension) was not equal. It was jittering in a quantum fashion, so each point was slightly different in energy content. As the dimensions inflated, these ULTRA microscopic irregularities were smeared out as they, too, inflated. So when inflation was finished (only a fraction of a second in "our time" after it started) space was NOT uniform, but had regions with higher or lower mass density. This allowed stars and everything else to form.

The single force that exists in the Multiverse, which I called God, went through different breaks in symmetry as the Universe inflated. The single force cannot exist below a certain energy density, so as the energy of the Universe smeared out (lowering its density) the force broke apart into the various forces of nature we know of today (and the ones we don't know of).

Each universe inflates and collapses in a brief instant as far as the membrane is concerned. Time as we know it does not exist in this state, so there is no real analogy I can make. I like to think of a pot of boiling water. If you watch the bubbles they form and collapse rapidly, but imagine if the "flow of time" inside each bubble was incredibly fast, so that in the brief instant you saw it exist many billions of years "happened" inside the bubble. Of course the membrane (God) either is not conscious and so can't care or see, or is completely beyond Time and so doesn't have to "watch" our universe unfold. The other thing that the quantum jitters mean is that all possibilities for universes do exist on the membrane.

I think our Universe will "pop" at some point, reguardless of whether or not it continues to expand "forever". At some point the energy level of some critical field will drop below a threshold and the Universe will collapse back into the membrane.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: trendal]
    #3105046 -

The Second Law indicates that as a closed system it will eventually reach a state of stasis with rock and low level radiation dominating. Then it will remain as such for eternity.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: trendal]
    #3105053 -

the big bang is a logical fallacy.

if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? MORE UNIVERSE.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: BleaK]
    #3105092 -

The problem is that the Universe is finite, so expanding into more is not an option.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: BleaK]
    #3105427 -

if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? MORE UNIVERSE.

No. It's hard to picture what it means for space itself to be expanding. The concept of true nothingness may be even harder to grasp, but it is at the heart of the issue here. Outside of spacetime there is nothing. Spacetime itself may be attatched to some other higher dimensional space, I guess, but it's still useless to talk about "outside" of our Universe as it is almost certain that we could not conceive of such a state of existence. No time, or maybe several temperal dimensions...not necessarily 3 spatial dimensions. I doubt human consciousness is able to image such concepts yet.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: trendal]
    #3105472 -

Unless the universe itself was one of many other bubbles within a greater scale of void. Relatively speaking, outside the earth is nothingness until another planet or star is reached. The same is true with atoms, molecules, ect. It seems to be the one thing in common with everything, that it is composed primarily of nothingness, and the something it is composed of itself is further mostly composed of nothingness. Almost like a fading hologram.


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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3105856 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
The problem is that the Universe is finite, so expanding into more is not an option.


how is the universe finite?

nothingness, by definition, DOESNT exist. ITS NOTHING, nothing but a concept anyway.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Univ [Re: deff]
    #3106057 -

Well if you look at how quantum mechanics is redefining our view of reality, I think you'll see that in our Univerese there really is no such thing as "nothing". Even on the smallest of scales "virtual particles" and like phenomena can be found. Enough so that you can say no portion of spacetime is ever truely "empty": there is always something there.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe [Re: Source]
    #3106303 -

I never even thought about it. Now that you mention it, it doesn't bug me either.

I didn't read through all the posts, I liked where doc was going. I liked the direction of realising mastery over things like light and gravity can have a profound impact on how this universe shapes itself. I see the expansion of it related to the addition of dimensions, space within space, blackholes and whiteholes and how this process itself can have no end. Energy can close in on itself and be rebirthed in a new dimension occupying the space it did before. We do this with the energy of thought and emotion all of the time already.

I am going to finish reading this thread. Very stimulating discussion so far!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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