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Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
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assumptions in agnostic"ism"
    #3332468 - 11/08/04 08:50 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i was looking at the definition of agnostics and I wonder about an assumption.

agnostics hold that the ultimate cause (god) or the essential nature of things is unknown and unknowable.

is stating that "god" is unknowable an assumption?


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: assumptions in agnostic"ism" [Re: kaiowas]
    #3332474 - 11/08/04 09:01 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I assume it could be


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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OfflineNuperSova
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Re: assumptions in agnostic"ism" [Re: NariusFractal]
    #3332489 - 11/08/04 09:21 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I always thought that it meant that existence of a God couldn't be proven scientifically, not that another couldn't know God through any other means.

Chryssi


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I Refuse To Say I'm Lost Just Because I Don't Know Where I Am


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: assumptions in agnostic"ism" [Re: NuperSova]
    #3332575 - 11/08/04 10:29 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think that the "essential nature" of things includes the possibility of there being a god or no god, if there is no god then the essential nature of things is presumably the physical universe, if there is a god then it might be different.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: assumptions in agnostic"ism" [Re: kaiowas]
    #3332668 - 11/08/04 11:12 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe it depends on how important you think you are, or how much knowledge you think you have about anything. Is that agnastoic? I dont know but i can tell you that i think that god is knowable or otherwise pointless in wondering if god is or isnt knowable.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: assumptions in agnostic"ism" [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3332941 - 11/08/04 12:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
Maybe it depends on how important you think you are, or how much knowledge you think you have about anything. Is that agnastoic? I dont know but i can tell you that i think that god is knowable or otherwise pointless in wondering if god is or isnt knowable.




But now you're conflating the concept of god with the existence of god.
No one can argue that the concept exists and is knowable. However, one can think that god does not exist and is therefore unknowable.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: assumptions in agnostic"ism" [Re: Sclorch]
    #3334345 - 11/08/04 09:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

dictionary.com says that an agnostic does not directly not believe in a god,  but that they simply do not know, or at least thats how i see the definition'(s)




Dictionary.com:
_________________

One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning ?without, not,? as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, ?knowledge,? which was used by early Christian writers to mean ?higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things? hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as ?Gnostics? a group of his fellow intellectuals?ists,? as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a ?man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,? Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.


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Maybe i should re define my statement by saying, that the concept of god is knowable, that otherwise, without a proper understanding of what god is, there is no point in wondering why or why not there is a god.

If ive made any more logical errors, please identify  :grin:


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: assumptions in agnostic"ism" [Re: kaiowas]
    #3335253 - 11/09/04 12:36 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

is stating that "god" is unknowable an assumption?

Not an assumption at all. There are two basic possibilities.

1. The universe/God has always existed in which case trying to locate the primary cause is impossible and unknowable.

2. The universe/God had a beginning in which case the question what of created the beginning is meaningless and therefore unknowable.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinekbilly
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Registered: 09/02/04
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Re: assumptions in agnostic"ism" [Re: Swami]
    #3335456 - 11/09/04 01:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"essential nature of things is unknown and unknowable"

unknowable - we cannot know it, it is not wthin our capabilities, they do not say that god does not exist. gods existing or not is therefore irrelevant to their belief system.

yes it is an assumption, which they admit, but it is one they believe.
unless your a scientist agnostic in which case its not because god cannot be scientifically proven, thereforegod being unknowable(not precluding the possibility of a god) is a fact.

"There are two basic possibilities."
no there are many posibiities, eg where cause and effect have no meaning hence the idea of creator/created do not exists at all, to say that god is eternal my make sense to us but to apply it to god may not, and in my opinion is not possible/relevant. to try to describe god for a human may be like a blibd person trying to describe sight and colours etc.


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