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WhiskeyClone
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
#7882173 - 01/15/08 08:31 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
TheCow said: I just wanted to try and clarify that agnostics share the same mindset as religious people, they just have not seen their proof yet.
I still don't see how you draw this conclusion. To me, agnosticism is open-mindedness on the question of god's existence, while theism or atheism is making an assumption one way or the other.
Agnostics are not necessarily looking for or expecting proof either way, they just don't feel a need to come to a conclusion about it.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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TheCow
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I am saying that there can never be proof. If you see something and assume that you have proof of God, then how is that different than a Christian person seeing something and claiming its from Jesus? They leave open the possibility that one day they will come to see or know God, they just haven't found it yet. Born again Christians claim this all the time, they found God.
In my opinion, anything that happens in this universe has to arise from it. So no matter what I see, it will never be proof of God. That is a meaningless phrase, if someone sees something and then becomes religious that's fine, but the mindset is the same as a religious person. You cant have it both ways, either you accept that everything you will see is based in the universe, or you can't blow off religious people because they were only doing exactly what you were, except they found their proof.
Peer reviewed scientific proof of God is not possible, God could come down and do anything and it would never pass sciences tests. Id sooner believe an alien has the power of mindcontrol over me than I would a God came down and made me see things.
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Love Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
#7882235 - 01/15/08 08:57 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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What kind of proof do you need? (This is a response from just reading the 3rd page of this thread) If you got some kind of enlightened feeling... you know, that feeling that everyone is striving for in life (Through meditation, church, doing good deeds, blah blah blah, and even tripping!) that feeling when you know you're connected to everything and an important part of the universe.... once you've felt that, would that be proof to you that there is something greater? to me, that greater thing is the connection between everything, and i think all religions are going somewhere with it to a sense, but they've all fucked up somewhere.... so what category does that put me in?
I think if all of humanity admitted that they have no idea what the hell is going on, and all try to put our experiences and knowledge together, with our technology, then we might actually get to some truth... you get what i'm saying?
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TheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
#7882246 - 01/15/08 09:02 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Yea I do get what you are saying, however the example you posted gives me no indication that there is a God. You are looking for proof of God, so you can put yourself in Agnostic as you are religious but have not found proof
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Love Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
#7882302 - 01/15/08 09:17 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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I never said I was looking for proof of god. I don't know if I am religious, all I know is that I have seen things out of this reality and I have felt a sense of well being and 'oneness' (for lack of better words) with the earth, and i know that my connection with nature and the universe is strong.... IS that god?
Are you just talking about god in the sense of god being an all knowing personified being?
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TheCow
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
#7882327 - 01/15/08 09:27 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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I am talking about:
God /gɒd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[god] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, god·ded, god·ding, interjection –noun 1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe. 2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam. 3. (lowercase) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs. 4. (often lowercase) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy. 5. Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle. 6. (lowercase) an image of a deity; an idol. 7. (lowercase) any deified person or object.
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Love Cap
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
#7882338 - 01/15/08 09:31 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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I don't know if I necessarily think of god like that. I don't know of a creator. I currently want to think that the universe is infinite, but I still feel spirituality.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
#7882404 - 01/15/08 09:50 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
I don't know if I necessarily think of god like that. I don't know of a creator.
That's the commonly accepted definition so usually when you say god people think of IT.  That's why dictionaries appeared in the first place, in order to be able to know what the fuck we're talking about and avoiding confusion. Kick ass idea if you ask me. 
Quote:
I currently want to think that the universe is infinite, but I still feel spirituality.
Why? Does the idea of an infinite universe usually makes one stop feeling spirituality?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Love Cap
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i guess that's the difference between you and me. When I reach enlightenment, the feeling of being connected to everything, and the obvious fact that we are a part of the universe, that's where my spirituality comes from. I can have that and still feel that the universe is infinite. Buddhists believe that there is no beginning to the universe, and obviously they are still spiritual.
And the definition of god is a good example why our language limits us to a lot of possibilities of spirituality. Interpretation is just as important. My interpretation of god is different from the definition apparently.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
#7882494 - 01/15/08 10:17 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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This is why I choose not to have interpretations of an ambigious word that everyone tries to assign a different interpretation to. Sometimes you can't fit the universe into a boot, especially when you can simply sit back and gaze into the sky and directly perceive the universe, you know?
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Love Cap
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Not interpreting things for yourself is only limiting yourself.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
#7882582 - 01/15/08 10:29 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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Yes but this is NOT philosophy
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
#7882587 - 01/15/08 10:30 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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You clearly didn't interpret what was intended to be conveyed. 
Unless you were just making a quick statement that had no relevance to what I said....
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
#7882608 - 01/15/08 10:33 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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I think that you may have a basic misunderstanding of the term "agnostic."
Quote:
Agnostic One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
This is not the same as saying one would believe in God if only someone offered proof. Agnostics are not waiting for someone to prove that they should believe, they are saying that it is simply NOT POSSIBLE to know. Atheists are claiming that they KNOW that God does not exist, and theists are claiming that they KNOW that God does exist.
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Love Cap
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.....still forgetting about the spirituality in the forum?
spirituality in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit. Spiritual matters are those involving humankind's ultimate nature, not merely as material biological organisms, but as beings with a unique relationship to that which is beyond both time and the material world. As such the spiritual is traditionally contrasted with the material, the temporal and the worldly . A perceived sense of connection forms a central defining characteristic of spirituality — connection to a metaphysical reality greater than oneself, which may include an emotional experience of religious awe and reverence, or such states as satori or Nirvana. Spirituality may involve perceiving or wishing to perceive life as more important ("higher"), more complex or more integrated with one's world view; as contrasted with the merely sensual. Certain forms of spirituality can appear more like philosophy: note in particular the scope of metaphysics.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Love Cap]
#7882635 - 01/15/08 10:40 AM (16 years, 17 days ago) |
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No. Spirituality is awareness. How can awareness be separated from logic and critical thinking? Don't you see the error in here? How are we supposed to remain aware when we stop making use of coherence?
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: No. Spirituality is awareness. How can awareness be separated from logic and critical thinking? Don't you see the error in here? How are we supposed to remain aware when we stop making use of coherence?
A mind that is incapable of reason and critical, conscious, unobstructed thought is incapable of conducting awareness and understanding of reality, subsequently, directly impacting one's experience of reality, thus negating any chance of spirituality blossoming forth. Glad to see someone understands this.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Glad to see someone understands this.
Glad to see you 
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Love Cap
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My statement on spirituality doesn't necessarily contradict that spirituality is awareness. Nether one of us has to be wrong. Spirituality uses logic, but it is also BEYOND logic; our comprehension of logic hasn't quite grasped the whole of spirituality... if you haven't broken through and completely opened your third eye, then I can understand why you don't know what I'm talking about.
And notice how almost every thread disintegrates to just you two making kissy faces as soon as either one of you chime in. Because you turn the thread into pointless bullshit. This is absurd and I don't see how it's in the boundaries of the rules.
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