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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Existence of Agnostics
    #7879026 -

In this post I take agnostics to mean someone who is undecided whether there is a God, specifically the people who claim that they are not atheist because they can't definitively say there is no God. These people claim that if evidence of God was found, they would believe in the God, however since there is no evidence they do not believe in God.

I view this is as having several problems and I do not think they can logically share tenants of atheism and tenants of religion.

An agnostic that is looking for evidence can never logically find any evidence to back up God, because anything that is placed before his/her eyes will be part of this universe to that person. Therefore no matter what happens, i.e burning bush,parting of the ocean, etc.. will have to be assumed to be part of the universe and therefore not brought forth by a deity.
Now if they start believing in a God after seeing something like this, then they are not logically consistent. Many Christians claim to see supernatural things, or feel the touch of Jesus. Yet the agnostics will claim that this is impossible and silly. So to these agnostics where is the line drawn that seperates silly from 'proof of God'? I think there is no line, either you accept that there is a God or you cannot ever claim that something was created by him.

Let me be more clear here: If you reject people's religious choices because you find them silly, or not based in reality. Then no matter what you see or feel, you can't claim it is from God. You have chosen to assume that everything that happens is part of the Universe and can be explained somehow without invoking a God. If you do see something and switch over, then you are logically inconsistent by rejecting lets say the Christians who claim to have felt jesus or seen him, while at the same time accepting your own fanciful occurrences as proof of God.

To bring it into even more of a general statement, some agnostics will simply state the base case that is, since we can never know if there is a God then I can't rule the possibility out. Therefore they are claiming that there is a possibility of supernatural occurrences. These people can therefore not claim that Christianity is false, because it is possible that all the Christians who claim to feel Christ are correct, it is only this person that has not felt it. They can still claim to be agnostic however in the sense of having not felt a deity yet, but it would be illogical for them to call religions fanciful.

However I find that most agnostics feel that all religion is silly, and so they become agnostic and not atheist because they think that since atheism claims there is no God that is the same thing as having faith in a no god scenario. These people as I stated above leave open the possibility of proof in God, however this proof can never happen without themselves assuming that what they have seen is not part of the universe and has arisen outside of it from a God.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879108 -

TheCow said:
To bring it into even more of a general statement, some agnostics will simply state the base case that is, since we can never know if there is a God then I can't rule the possibility out. Therefore they are claiming that there is a possibility of supernatural occurrences. These people can therefore not claim that Christianity is false, because it is possible that all the Christians who claim to feel Christ are correct, it is only this person that has not felt it.


I suppose some agnostics believe that a God could exist, but not one that Christians commonly describe.

Do you think somebody could somebody completely reject the possibility of a Christian version of God (an omnipotent, decisionmaking, intervening entity,) while still admit the possibility of a God? Being agnostic does not mean you make no assumptions. (Does it?)

People have different interpretations of what the word 'god' means... why could they not reject some of those interpretations but be open to others?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #7879118 -

No I dont see how someone could completely reject the Christian God while still keeping open the possibility of a God. There reasoning is that they have not seen proof, but to these Christians they have seen proof. So they are following the same line of reasoning, so to me it is not logically consistent.

As far as the interpretation of the word God, lets not get into semantics here. I think we know what the God, or deity, or supernatural means

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879751 -

I can speak to both sides of the issue, being an agnostic for about 30 years, and a Christian (Calvinistic, Reformed) for the last 8 years.

While agnostic I always left open the possibility of a God, however I put the chances of that actually being true at like a billion to 1. I generally considered religious people to be self-deluded and foolish. I honestly tried to ask so called "Christians" what they actually believed, but to me it just didn't make any sense at all.

After a few years of psychedelic use I generally felt there must be a spiritual reality. I started to earnestly investigate what the Bible is saying. I just didn't get it. Well long story short, I came to understand sin, righteousness and judgment, and the gospel was revealed to me. From that time forward I understand what the Bible is saying (mostly). It is true that you become a new creation in the new birth. Saving faith is a gift from God, no other way could a die hard agnostic like myself could actually believe it.

From a personal perspective I have the witness of the Holy Spirit within myself, this is something that wasn't true before.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7879798 -

Yea, I find that reasonable. But when you were agnostic I am saying that logically you could not claim that the other Christians were wrong. To say that would be to literally tell them, 'you are lying that you have been touched by God' As there being touched by God is exactly what you were leaving open the possibility to. Of course you could still put a probability to them lying.

I guess my whole point of this thread stems from a post made in the science forum where a guy says that he is agnostic because he cannot rule out the possibility of God. I just wanted to clarify what I think that means, as I hear that statement a lot and I think it implies things that people dont take into account initially.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879819 -

I mostly thought they were foolish and deluded. I still think most people who claim to have been "touched by God" in fact have not been, they just imagined that they have been.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: fivepointer]
    #7879830 -

Well I think that about all of you religious people :shrug:

But if you discount other people you think they are lying, or I guess totally insane.  But to discount the average person, well the average person isn't totally insane.  I guess the average person could be lying.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879846 -

An atheist has faith that there is no god... or if you prefer it with a capital letter... there is no God.

An agnostic believes the jury is out.

This shouldn't be hard to understand... not even for someone who, "Knows for a fact" that there is a god... or is it God?


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Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879848 -

I think most people are deluded, they are not intentionally lying.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7879855 -

Why dont you actually respond to any points I brought up?

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879906 -

I did.

And I am left wondering why Christianity and Atheism were the only two faiths you mentioned.

TheCow said:
No I dont see how someone could completely reject the Christian God while still keeping open the possibility of a God.


What about a Buddhist?

A true Buddhist would fit your definition of agnostic... almost to a, "T"... but Buddhism is a faith too... isn't it?

How 'bout a Hindu... or someone from a multi-god faith?


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Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7879934 -

I am saying that agnostics are similar to religious people. As far as Buddhism, I dont know enough about it. Which is why I am talking about the Christian/Jew/Muslim religions. Although its very possible I could include Buddhism as they certainly aren't atheist so I would reckon it would be similar. Of course a multi-God faith would be the same as Christianity.

Im not sure you read my initial posts? You act like you arent sure what I am arguing

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7879973 -

TheCow said:
Of course a multi-God faith would be the same as Christianity.



No it wouldn't.

Wasn't, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." a commandment? Christians are monotheistic.

You wonder why I don't address your points? Because I disagree with most of them... and I don't feel like spending my time picking them apart point by point.

You obviously could benefit from studying faiths that are NOT based in the Old Testament... until then, I am afraid my objections may offend you. That is not my intent... but it is clear from your replies to my posts that you are looking to argue with me (although I have, at least until this post... only typed six or seven sentences in your thread). I am simply talking about things which appear to be new to you. No need to fight. You started this discussion.

Again... is it any wonder why I haven't addressed your first post point by point?


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Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7879996 -

Are you for real? Are you seriously arguing that Hinduism and Christianity are different religions? Excellent work there my man.
You do realize in this thread I am only talking about people who have faith in a supernatural power? Therefore both Hindu's and Christians are the same, regardless of the other bullshit they want to pander.

I am saying that agnostics are virtually the same as religious people, they just haven't felt the touch of God yet. But its the exact same mentality. They are virgins. Atheism is the only true faith for science.

Now back to whatever knowledge it is you want to impress me with

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880036 -

Atheists... as I said in my FIRST post... have faith. They BELIEVE there is NO GOD.

Again... Atheists have FAITH.

We both agree, Christians have FAITH.

Agnostics, by definition, do NOT have to have faith.

THAT is a BIG difference.

So...

I disagree with your entire thesis. No offense... I just do.

Please don't ask me to repeat myself a third time.

I said this ALL in my FIRST post... except in my FIRST POST, I was nice enough to keep my opinions about your thesis to myself.


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Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: Rose]
    #7880052 -

I cant imagine how its being nice to keep your opinions about the substance of my thread to yourself, and then instead just ramble about something else. Thats a new one to me.

Why dont you try and refute me on a logical level? My thread is tarnished by this. Youve ruined my prom night, my dress is all torn up, daddy says only for my husband

Edited by TheCow (01/14/08 09:46 PM)

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880097 -

I consider myself agnostic because I am open to the possibility that the bang was the deliberate act of a consciousness. It has nothing to do with supernatural, soul, or afterlife.

Like nearly all of philosophical debate, its a matter of definitions. If the bang was the act of a consciousness, then I would say there is a god (or at least a creator). Even if that consciousness didnt know we existed in the universe it created.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880109 -

It is only a thread.

Like I said... if I replied to EVERY ONE OF YOUR POINTS... you CLEARLY would have been offended. Your behavior is confirming my theory in real time.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

You want to have a discussion? Then don't question the integrity of the people who actually spend the time to reply to your posts.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: DieCommie]
    #7880117 -

So you think there could be a supernatural entity. Then can you discount Christians? By your own logic this Christian God might have created the universe, and is now contacting certain people. How do you refute that? See the problem I have with agnostics is that if you claim that you are waiting for proof, then you are just allowing religious people to claim they have already gotten it. I am atheist because anything that happens to me no matter how fantastical I will always assume has an explanation without evoking a supernatural power.

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Re: Existence of Agnostics [Re: TheCow]
    #7880133 -

An agnostic, by definition, is not waiting for proof... they just acknowledge there IS NO PROOF YET... and they CAN'T PREDICT THE FUTURE.

To an agnostic... god (or God) is merely a POSSIBILITY.

Seems logical to me...


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Fiddlesticks.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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