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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Registered: 11/05/03
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WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it?
    #2144229 - 11/29/03 01:41 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

If no WMD's are ever found in Iraq, do you think that the cost in lives and dollars was worth it to sew the seeds of democracy in Iraq? The lack of systematic destruction of ethnic minorities, the support and funding of terrorism, the mass executions conducted on the orders of a tyrannical dictator, the inclusion of freedoms that the majority of Iraq has not had for over half a century. Looking not at the means, but at the end, was it worth it?


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2144319 - 11/29/03 02:41 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Hell no.

There are other countries who are a much bigger threat to the world than Iraq. The war on Iraq is a sham. I know you want to believe that our leaders have our interests in mind, but they don't. Taking a look at our drug policies will prove this.







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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2144745 - 11/29/03 05:33 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

If everything works out it will be the boldest and most
successful foreign policy move ever undertaken. If it all falls
apart then it will be one of the biggest messes the modern world
has ever seen.


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Offlinepattern
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Registered: 07/19/02
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2144823 - 11/29/03 06:12 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

I think the WMD issue is and always was irrelevant. The real question is overthrowing Saddam and bringing sanity to Iraq.

Now, Americans will have to be there for dozens of years to outwait Saddam+warlords. I think the problem lied in all the high-tech missiles shot down on the cities and Baghdad. That scattered all the enemy and forced them into a long-term guerrilla war. They shoulda just marched right in and had a battle to the death. Woulda lost more lives, but it probably would have been over right now, if the Americans had played fair with conventional warfare, and not been poor sports with long range bombs. Plus, a lot of civilians were killed with those bombs and that seems to have pissed off the entire Middle East.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: pattern]
    #2146374 - 11/30/03 12:43 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

Conventional warfare means our troops come home alive. The entire middle east has been pissed of at us for years. I don't think that more civilians were killed in our time attacking Iraq than were killed in Saddams heyday of genocide, and I'd say that quite a few more Iraqi citizens are much better off having Saddam removed.

does anyone think that it's bad that saddam is out of power over there?


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2146426 - 11/30/03 01:10 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

It's good that Saddam is out of power I guess, but the ends do not justify the means.

It's not worth the money, lives and time that we're going to waste over there.


:nonono:


 


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2150181 - 12/01/03 07:51 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

The entire middle east has been pissed of at us for years

have you ever stopped to think about why that is the case?


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Anonymous

Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: afoaf]
    #2150325 - 12/01/03 08:32 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

have you ever stopped to think about why that is the case?

for fucking with them.

i say international policy should basically be reduced to this:

1. no US armed forces are to leave the united states or its waters in the line of duty unless they are fighting an active war which has been declared by congress... the justification of which must always be defense of the united states from force.

2. no US government aid, be it financial, agricultural, or military, should ever be sent to any foreign government or citizens.

3. our intelligence agencies should gather information... not attempt to overthrow foreign governments, smuggle guns and drugs, conduct illegal wars, and all of that nastiness.

a general policy of neutrality, non-interference, and defense should be the foundation of our relationships with foriegn governments.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: ]
    #2150350 - 12/01/03 08:41 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

right on, but I was wondering what tryptamine thought.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Registered: 11/05/03
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: afoaf]
    #2150669 - 12/01/03 10:51 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
The entire middle east has been pissed of at us for years

have you ever stopped to think about why that is the case?




Middle Eastern leaders demonize the West (or the Jews/Zionists/Israelies) and manipulate the masses through control of the media. These average people in these Arab nations are kept poor, dumb and brainwashed. By giving these people a common enemy, the dictators are focusing the anger of the people on the supposed enemy, rahter than on the dictators themselves.

And, I'm sure you'd say, it's also because we support the only nation in that region that is a democracy. A nation that has nuclear weapons but doesn't threaten the region with them. A nation that is trying to peacefully coexist with her neighbors who practise unrestrained warfare on her innocent civilians. Doing what is right might not make you popular with the people that are wrong, but that is the way it is.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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OfflineBhairabas
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2150763 - 12/01/03 11:41 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

I think that answer is yet to be seen.. We'll see how Iraq is in 10 years.. Personally I don't think it's going very well.. It seems like a civil war is a brewing.. The last thing we need is another war based on ethnicity or religion..


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InvisibleMycomancer
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2150778 - 12/01/03 11:50 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:


Middle Eastern leaders demonize the West (or the Jews/Zionists/Israelies) and manipulate the masses through control of the media. These average people in these Arab nations are kept poor, dumb and brainwashed. By giving these people a common enemy, the dictators are focusing the anger of the people on the supposed enemy, rahter than on the dictators themselves.




Kinda sounds like whats happens here in America. All these references to Evil Doers(demonization), and then there's the Office of Strategic Influence(media control/brainwashing) in the pentagon, no gov't funded education(dumb) although countries with lesser finacial status pull it off. All the while slipping in "The Patriot Act" while we were distracted. The world is in a very odd and scary place right now.

mycomancer


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Anonymous

Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2150780 - 12/01/03 11:51 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

1. do you think it's right to put american soldiers in harm's way fighting a war funded with taxpayer dollars to help the citizens of a foreign nation, even if that war isn't directly related to america's national security?

2. do you think this war will help the people of iraq?

... if you can answer "yes" to both of those questions, i guess you can say that you think it was "worth it".


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OfflineBhairabas
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: ]
    #2150844 - 12/02/03 12:10 AM (14 years, 18 days ago)

Im don't know.. I sort of think going out of ones way to genuinly help someone in need is comendable.. Lying about what your doing and hiding your true intention's is the exact oppisate..


Edited by Bhairabas (12/02/03 12:11 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2150927 - 12/02/03 12:34 AM (14 years, 18 days ago)

I sort of think going out of ones way to genuinly help someone in need is comendable

indeed it is... except when this "help" is funded by more than a hundred billion dollars of money taken from others under threat of force.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2151141 - 12/02/03 08:10 AM (14 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

do you think that the cost in lives and dollars was worth it to sew the seeds of democracy in Iraq?




Dont forget that sewing the seeds of democracy in Iraq was a fortunate by product of securing control of the third largest oil reserve in the world and gaining a powerful posistion to influence the remaining supplies. Now was that worth the cost in lives and dollars? that should be the question.
As for the rest of your question I believe Saddam has been demonised to a point where we cannot truly know his crimes anymore. I am not saying he was good, far from it. But there are still many countries in a far worse state of affairs than the Iraqi's were at the end of the 80's before sanctions etc. Do you think we will be going on to help sew the seeds of democracy in these countries too? Doesnt it seem kind of strange to you that democracy has been spread to Iraq without actually asking the Iraqi's if thats what they want? Im sure they want democracy but a democracy of their own, based on a deep understanding of the Iraqi culture and mindset. Not a US pre-packaged democracies r us construction kit.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2151463 - 12/02/03 11:44 AM (14 years, 17 days ago)

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not...but are
you trying to imply that israel is trying to coexist
peacefully with palestine?


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OfflinetrendalM
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: afoaf]
    #2151481 - 12/02/03 11:52 AM (14 years, 17 days ago)

I think a quote from Jello Biafra is in order...

"Estimated ammount of U.S. dollars spent guarding our Mid-Eastern oil supply, in the Persian Gulf: 50 billion dollars. Estimated value of the crude oil coming out of the Persian Gulf: 19 billion dollars..."


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2151660 - 12/02/03 01:27 PM (14 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Middle Eastern leaders demonize the West (or the Jews/Zionists/Israelies) and manipulate the masses through control of the media.




If that is true they must be the best damn manipulators of the masses the world has ever seen because there are also people throughout the western world and even Israel itself who deplore the tactics employed by the extremist Israelis.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: WMD's or no WMD's, was the war worth it? [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2151717 - 12/02/03 02:03 PM (14 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

enimatpyrt said:
If no WMD's are ever found in Iraq, do you think that the cost in lives and dollars was worth it to sew the seeds of democracy in Iraq?




Of course not, what kinda question is that?!

Freedom is never given, only earned.


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Lest we forget. "


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