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Invisiblexnevermore
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Noam Chomsky on the Drug War
    #811141 - 08/11/02 04:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: xnevermore]
    #811157 - 08/11/02 04:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Certainly seems to know his shit...


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Offlinedickdeadly
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #811298 - 08/11/02 06:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

fuck chomsky, he capitalizes off of being against capitalism... that's so fucking pathetic. that's like anti-conformist conformists at school

if you dont like it, leave


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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: dickdeadly]
    #812971 - 08/12/02 01:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: vatoloco]
    #812984 - 08/12/02 01:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Whether or not you agree with Noam Chomsky's opinions, you have to admire him. The dude is smarter than everyone at the shoomery put together...he's not always right, and he's not perfect, but he always makes you think.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Rono]
    #813054 - 08/12/02 02:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Whether or not you agree with Noam Chomsky's opinions, you have to admire him.



Not true, I have no admiration for him. Simply being smart does not make me admire someone.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: dickdeadly]
    #814314 - 08/13/02 07:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

How else would you like him to get his ideas out?
I haven't seen any signs that he's greedy.
Even if you're against capitalism, you've still got to eat.

It's pretty hard to leave the US when they're stationed in almost every country around the world.

If you don't like something, change it for the better, don't abandon it like a coward.

Lots of people who hate the US government love the US. They don't want to abandon the country they grew up in.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Rono]
    #818484 - 08/15/02 05:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Chomsky is a cheap demogogue, an apologist for the Khmer Rouge, and an all around evil nutjob. He never saw an oppressive regime he didn't support, just as long as it was anti-western.

The war on drugs will be ended by people like William F. Buckley and Gov. Gary Johnson, not tinfoil wearing conspiracy theorists like Chomsky.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: xnevermore]
    #818855 - 08/15/02 08:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I read the interview. He had some rational things to add to the means behind the war on drugs. I take issue with Chomsky, as most do, because of his innane ramblings and unsupported socialist arguments. I don't dislike him, I just dislike the socialist aspects of some of his arguments, I most certainly agree with his stance on drugs though.


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Offlineamanita3
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: xnevermore]
    #819221 - 08/16/02 04:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the link, xnevermore; I missed that article and it is a good one. I agree with TheShroomHermit, vatoloco, mr freedom, Rono, and especially with Phluck (well said!).

You others might read a bit of History before you shoot your mouths off, exposing your ignorance.

The Right wing (Nazis) and the Left wing (Commies) are but two arms of the same BEAST- the Oligarchy- the International Bankers, playing the entire World for SUCKERS. The Grand Game is for World Domination, and the primary tactic is called "Divide and Conquer". The British Rothschild $$$ clan leads the Left arm and set up the Russians through the phoney 'Bolschevic Revolution' when they executed the ruling Tzars. The Right Wing Nazis of Germany were sponsored by the Rockefeller/Ford,et al Faction. The game is to blow things up so that they can impoverish the populations of their respective countries who ultimately PAY for everything; both the wars and the rebuilding which follows the destruction. Thus, there is little progress in the people's welfare. Meanwhile, the International Bankers/Oligarchy/Criminal Enterprise flourishes, Don't you see? WE, the PEOPLE, are being HAD! We throw shit at EACH OTHER while the BASTARDS are laughing all the way to the Bank. Twas ever thus, and will continue this way throughout time,UNLESS we, the PEOPLE, wise up. THEY are few and WE are MANY- and they fear our numbers. So they keep us confused and fighting amongst ourselves. They thin out our numbers (maybe a good thing for the Earth's sake???) The money always flows to the TOP, to the BANKERS. This is why THEY ALWAYS COME OUT THE WINNERS, at OUR EXPENSE!
If you study History you may come to see, and agree; there lies our only hope. We, the PEOPLE, must depose the Puppetteers. The Emporer wears no clothes, don't you SEE? In my humble opinion..... Wishing PEACE on you ALL.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: amanita3]
    #819546 - 08/16/02 07:35 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

You others might read a bit of History before you shoot your mouths off, exposing your ignorance.




So because I don't admire Chumpsky, that means I'm ignorant?
Now that's funny.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: wingnutx]
    #819643 - 08/16/02 08:10 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The Khmer Rouge rouge thing is bullshit. He doesn't say they're good people, he just points out some lies that the US used to justify invading Vietnam.

You should read what Chomsky himself says, and not what anti-Chomsky websites say about him.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: amanita3]
    #819667 - 08/16/02 08:18 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It's not quite so black and white.
There's no international conspiracy of bankers, media and politicians. They're all independant individuals, with their own biases and opinions.

When you hear someone tell a story, they usually change it a little bit in their favour. That's simply what the media does, and since the media is owned by rich people in big companies, it generally won't take a left/working class type of stance. The media picks the stories it reports. Is the Israel-Palestine conflict the bloodiest going on in the world right now? Not by a long shot. It gets a lot more attention because we have strong financial and political ties to Israel, and other middle eastern countries.

Having money makes it easier to get more money, so the people who are rich tend to stay rich,
and the poor stay poor.

You don't need Rothschilds or Illuminati or even spooky shadow governments to explain it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phluck]
    #819732 - 08/16/02 08:36 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

since the media is owned by rich people in big companies, it generally won't take a left/working class type of stance.

Bullshit. Here's an example...

"I'm a Socialist at heart." - Ted Turner, to a gathering of U.N. bureaucrats.




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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: ]
    #819748 - 08/16/02 08:42 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Somehow, someone that is a Billionaire just saying that he is a socialist at heart doesn't hold alot of credibility...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Rono]
    #819811 - 08/16/02 09:07 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Some more wealthy socialists...

Henry Hyndman, the son of a rich businessman, born in London, formed Britain's first socialist political party, The Social Democratic Federation (SDF) as well as the National Socialist Party

Ferdinand Lassallea a wealthy socialist from Berlin who had financially supported the work of Karl Marx.

William Morris (famous and wealthy socialist that Irish author William Butler Yeats hobnobbed with)

Aline Barnsdall had the epic neo-Mayan mansion known as "Hollyhock House," designed for her by Frank Lloyd Wright in 1919 (at Hollywood Blvd & Vermont Ave. in L.A.)

Rose Pastor Stokes, Cleveland cigarmaker who became well-known socialist and traveled in leftist intellectual circles with wealthy socialist husband.

"Hanoi" Jane Fonda

Ted Kennedy

Ralph Nadar ($3.8 million)

Victor Rothschild

Cecil and Sidney Bernstein (of Granada Televison in England)

Janie Allan (Scottish Suffragette)

... and most wealthy hollywood actors and actresses.


Edited by Evolving (08/16/02 09:08 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: xnevermore]
    #819993 - 08/16/02 10:29 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Chomsky is a chump. So he is smart..so what?

check it out Noam Chomsky, biased

this has been discussed before


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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phluck]
    #821046 - 08/16/02 03:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Phluck writes:

You should read what Chomsky himself says, and not what anti-Chomsky websites say about him.

I have. Not every single book and article (why should I contribute to his wealth?) but at least five or six I borrowed from friends or the library. I've read pretty near every one of his online articles, I think.

Chomsky is dishonest. He is VERY slick, but anyone with a modicum of intelligence, a fair knowledge of recent history, and some patience can pick out the bullshit after a bit of practice.

Some of the things he writes are true, but by no means all. Hey, even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn every now and then.

But to swallow uncritically everything he spouts is a grievous error.

Even though he is against the War on Drugs, vast chunks of that article are either untrue or unprovable, and he just can't restrain himself from wandering all over the map, tossing in gratuitous anti-Western digs whenever it strikes his fancy.

The man has his own agenda -- the destruction of the US -- and he will use any excuse to further it, even one as far afield as a commentary on the WOD.

pinky


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #821649 - 08/16/02 06:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"The man has his own agenda -- the destruction of the US"
Good grief.

"Hey, even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn every now and then."
Can I have some of your drugs?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phluck]
    #821873 - 08/16/02 07:54 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Good grief indeed. You're the one who suggested it was a good idea to read Chomsky himself, rather than critics of Chomsky, in order to understand his point of view.

Well, I HAVE read Chomsky. I'm willing to wager I've read quite a bit more of his writings than you have. Have you read any of his critics? Even one article?

I read Chomsky long before I read any of his critics, and guess what? I had come to the same conclusions (on my own) that they had. The more Chomsky one reads, the more apparent it is that he has nothing but contempt and hatred for anything even remotely connected with capitalism, and especially the US. He has nothing good to say about the US, but he is strangely silent on far worse and far more oppressive regimes, only ever mentioning them when he claims they are creations of -- you guessed it -- the Great Satan.

He is an avowed "anarchist", or more accurately one of the "anarcho-syndicalist" tribe of "anarchists", who are close as damn to being Marxist, but don't have the intellectual honesty to admit it. He distorts and misrepresents, takes things out of context, exaggerates (he is particularly bad at exaggerating or inventing "statistics"), cherry-picks bits and pieces to support his agenda while ignoring mountains of evidence (often in the same documents) that contradicts it, and, when he finds even these tactics insufficient, he just makes things up. To be blunt, he lies.

Not all the time, no. Some of the abuses of power engineered by J. Edgar Hoover and the CIA and Kissinger and Nixon and other fine figures in US history actually DID occur exactly as he describes them, and this is why people get sucked in by his methods -- he sprinkles enough well-known and verifiable facts into the mix at just the right points that the entire screed seems, to the non-critical reader, to be plausible. I don't deny that he is a smart man, he IS a smart man, as careful reading of his constructions will show. He is a linguist, after all, and he is as well-versed in the tricks of rhetoric as it is as possible to be.

That's why I say he is dishonest. He KNOWS what he is saying is bullshit, but he figures his linguistic brilliance is such that no one will ever catch him out.

He would be a much more effective critic of US policy if he were to play it straight. As it is, his hyperbole and dishonesty is so consistent that it is impossible to take him seriously. That's a shame, because as I implied with my "blind pigs and acorns" reference, it is possible that some day he really might uncover some truly bad shit, and it'll be ignored as "just more Chomsky chump change".

pinky




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Edited by pinksharkmark (08/16/02 07:57 PM)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #822400 - 08/17/02 12:07 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Pinky, even I have to admit that was an excellent and well spoken arguement. Although I have to say you haven't changed my opinion of Chomsky, nor could I say anything to change your view on him. So we agree that he's intelligent and leave it at that.

Personally, I don't care if some of what he says is "exagerated"...he makes you think, and if even a little bit of what he says makes you question the governement, and make it accountable for it's own actions, then it's a start....I'm sure even you have to admit the U.S. government is pulling some really scary shit lately and the entire world is watching...and feeling the tension.

It's not a big secret to anyone here that I'm not a huge fan of the U.S. government, and yes I'm Canadian so perhaps that gives me a different perspective on the world as you see it...anyways, I'm drunk, I'm tired and I say good day to you sir!...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phluck]
    #824295 - 08/17/02 07:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I've read as much Chomsky as I can stand. I even have a 7" record of the hateful old bastard.

I'll defer to him on matters linguistic. Most other topics show him to embrace anything, however blatantly insane, that makes western civ and capitalism a scapegoat.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Rono]
    #824513 - 08/17/02 08:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono, if you want an author that makes sense, makes you think and doesn't lie then try this one:

http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/aint/

Peter McWilliams.

I would suggest that everyone read this book, it's free online.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: wingnutx]
    #827385 - 08/19/02 07:18 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

good post...i agree


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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: mr freedom]
    #827398 - 08/19/02 07:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I went to the link, but all I found was cute little "annecdotes" that didn't challenge me to think at all...did I miss something or is there another link? I am not dis-crediting Peter McWilliams, but from what I've seen all he does is state the obvious...Personally I prefer something with a little more "substance".


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #944312 - 10/09/02 01:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The more Chomsky one reads, the more apparent it is that he has nothing but contempt and hatred for anything even remotely connected with capitalism, and especially the US. when he finds even these tactics insufficient, he just makes things up. To be blunt, he lies.


The thing about Chomsky is he uses the writings and speeches of the capitalists themselves. Precisely to destroy the idea that he is biased. That's why his books have such extensive footnotes. Deterring Democracy for example has almost nothing of Chomsky's opinion in it, it is pure documented quoted evidence from corporate leaders themselves. I find it hard to believe you have ever read Chomsky if you havn't noticed this.


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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Xlea321]
    #944454 - 10/09/02 04:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The thing about Chomsky is he uses the writings and speeches of the capitalists themselves.

1) Few if any of the people he quotes are capitalists. They are professional politicians or bureaucrats in a country that is, at best, a mixed economy welfare state. Chomsky is quite adept at setting up and demolishing straw dogs.

2) Many of the quotes he provides are from very low-level apparatchiks with no power to decide policy. They represent personal opinion rather than government policy.

3) Many of the quotes are cherry-picked and taken out of context. When one reads the entire document referred to, this becomes obvious.

That's why his books have such extensive footnotes.

1) There is a credible argument to be made that the reason he has so many footnotes is to discourage checking each and every one.

2) When one DOES attempt to check each and every footnote, one finds that some of the "sources" don't actually exist. This has been pointed out by almost every critic of Chomsky. Noam seems to be able to dig up stuff that no one else can find.

Deterring Democracy for example has almost nothing of Chomsky's opinion in it, it is pure documented quoted evidence from corporate leaders themselves.

That is Chomsky's method, and no one is better at it than he is. He doesn't have the intellectual honesty to actually state his own opinions, because from past debates with critics he has learned how easily his positions can be refuted. Instead he uses his (admittedly proficient) linguistic legerdemain to insinuate, twist, slant, distort, misrepresent, and attribute to other supposedly neutral "authorities" the ideas he wishes to get across. That way, whenever he is challenged, he can backpedal and say, "No, I never said that at all. You are misunderstanding my position".

I find it hard to believe you have ever read Chomsky if you havn't noticed this.

Alex, I am getting pretty damn tired of you insinuating I am a liar. I've read fucking Chomsky. Once YOU have read ENOUGH Chomsky you will notice the same things about his writings that I have pointed out.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #944512 - 10/09/02 05:57 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Many of the quotes he provides are from very low-level apparatchiks with no power to decide policy. They represent personal opinion rather than government policy.

I just flipped open a Chomsky book - there were qoutes from Macnamara, Madelaine Allbright, Nixon, Bush and Clinton on the random page it opened to. Your argument doesn't hold water.

There is a credible argument to be made that the reason he has so many footnotes is to discourage checking each and every one.

Are you serious? This is right-wing paranoia taken to extremes. The man goes to the effort of footnoting his work precisely so people CAN read the sources.

This has been pointed out by almost every critic of Chomsky.

Yes I'm sure lots of right-wingers think he's a very unpleasant man. The fact is you can't deny the footnotes or the evidence. And if you can find a footnote that "didn't exist" then please provide the evidence. I've heard enough right-wing propaganda to know bullshit when i hear it.



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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Xlea321]
    #944562 - 10/09/02 06:22 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I just flipped open a Chomsky book - there were qoutes from Macnamara, Madelaine Allbright, Nixon, Bush and Clinton on the random page it opened to. Your argument doesn't hold water.

1) Reading comprehension skills are important. I didn't say all -- I said many. I can believe that on any given page opened at random there were quotes only from high-level politicians. Is this the case of every page in the book?

2) Madelaine Allbright, Richard Nixon, and Bill Clinton all fit my description of politicians and bureaucrats dedicated to the mixed economy welfare state model of government. None of them are proponents of capitalism.

The man goes to the effort of footnoting his work precisely so people CAN read the sources.

Not all of his "sources" in his earlier works can be found... not on the net, not anywhere. In later works he restricted this practice, because he had been caught at it by people such as Alan Dershowitz, James Donald, Brian Carnell, David Horowitz, and others. What is the copyright date for the book you flipped open?

And if you can find a footnote that "didn't exist" then please provide the evidence.

I have never bought one of his books, so I don't have one to scrutinize for the bogus footnotes. All of his books I have read so far were either borrowed from friends or from a library. At the moment I have none in my possession.

Chomsky gambles that no one will bother to verify EVERY reference he lists. This gamble doesn't always pay off, though. He has been caught MANY times. Naturally, MOST of the sources that he notes do in fact exist (although he is extremely selective at what he quotes from those sources); if they were ALL bogus there would be no point.

I've heard enough right-wing propaganda to know bullshit when i hear it.

You have heard none from me. I am not a right winger.

pinky



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #944893 - 10/09/02 09:16 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Chomsky gambles that no one will bother to verify EVERY reference he lists.

Look man, just draw breath for a moment and listen to yourself. Forget what you heard some right-winger with his own agenda said about Chomsky and think about what you're saying. You are saying that Noam Chomsky, one of the most distuingished academics of the 20th century, a man who'se work is scrutinised to the nth degree by right-wingers, is going to sit there and say "I know, I'll make up a quote and then make up a footnote, I bet no-one will notice". Do you really believe that? Just pause and THINK about it for a moment before you respond.

Rush Limbaugh might get away with making up footnotes but Noam Chomsky certainly isn't. Chomsky is one of the hate figures of the establishment and right-wing and they will do anything they can to discredit him.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Xlea321]
    #945311 - 10/09/02 12:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You are saying that Noam Chomsky, one of the most distuingished academics of the 20th century, a man who'se work is scrutinised to the nth degree by right-wingers, is going to sit there and say "I know, I'll make up a quote and then make up a footnote, I bet no-one will notice".

Yes, that's what I am saying, because that's what he has done. And, he's been caught at it -- more than once, by more than one critic. He is indeed a noted academic, but he's been noted for two different things:

1) His seminal work in the field of linguistics, notably the theory of "innatism".

2) His virulent hatred of the United States and, to a lesser extent, all "Western" countries.

Chomsky is one of the hate figures of the establishment and right-wing and they will do anything they can to discredit him.

He makes it easy for them. The thing is -- as I said in an earlier reply of mine in this thread -- many of the dubious exploits of various US government figures he points out are indeed verifiable, and require no embroidery in order to persuade an objective reader to condemn them. But by taking things over the top, he destroys his own credibility.

I am no fan of many past actions and policies of US government, nor of George W. Bush. But I believe in criticizing what they actually DID. Goodness knows that leaves plenty to criticize.

Rush Limbaugh is an ass. So is Noam Chomsky.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #945557 - 10/09/02 01:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

And, he's been caught at it -- more than once, by more than one critic. He is indeed a noted academic

You got any evidence for this? The idea of Chomsky getting "caught" doing anything is laughable. I think you may be confusing right-wingers misinformation with reality.

His virulent hatred of the United States and, to a lesser extent, all "Western" countries.

Nah the only thing Chomsky hates is injustice. And to say he hates the united states sounds like typical Dubya misinformation - like anyone who isn't for the "war on terror" hates america too.

and require no embroidery

There is no embrodiery. It's all there in the footnotes. Go back and read Deterring Democracy or see the film "Manufacturing Consent".


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #945916 - 10/09/02 04:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Here's a recent (Sept. 9) article from Chomsky. Anyone care to identify all of the "lies" contained therein?

Drain the Swamp and There Will Be No More Mosquitoes
By attacking Iraq, the US will invite a new wave of terrorist attacks

by Noam Chomsky

September 11 shocked many Americans into an awareness that they had better pay much closer attention to what the US government does in the world and how it is perceived. Many issues have been opened for discussion that were not on the agenda before. That's all to the good.

It is also the merest sanity, if we hope to reduce the likelihood of future atrocities. It may be comforting to pretend that our enemies "hate our freedoms," as President Bush stated, but it is hardly wise to ignore the real world, which conveys different lessons.

The president is not the first to ask: "Why do they hate us?" In a staff discussion 44 years ago, President Eisenhower described "the campaign of hatred against us [in the Arab world], not by the governments but by the people". His National Security Council outlined the basic reasons: the US supports corrupt and oppressive governments and is "opposing political or economic progress" because of its interest in controlling the oil resources of the region.

Post-September 11 surveys in the Arab world reveal that the same reasons hold today, compounded with resentment over specific policies. Strikingly, that is even true of privileged, western-oriented sectors in the region.

To cite just one recent example: in the August 1 issue of Far Eastern Economic Review, the internationally recognized regional specialist Ahmed Rashid writes that in Pakistan "there is growing anger that US support is allowing [Musharraf's] military regime to delay the promise of democracy".

Today we do ourselves few favors by choosing to believe that "they hate us" and "hate our freedoms". On the contrary, these are attitudes of people who like Americans and admire much about the US, including its freedoms. What they hate is official policies that deny them the freedoms to which they too aspire.

For such reasons, the post-September 11 rantings of Osama bin Laden - for example, about US support for corrupt and brutal regimes, or about the US "invasion" of Saudi Arabia - have a certain resonance, even among those who despise and fear him. From resentment, anger and frustration, terrorist bands hope to draw support and recruits.

We should also be aware that much of the world regards Washington as a terrorist regime. In recent years, the US has taken or backed actions in Colombia, Nicaragua, Panama, Sudan and Turkey, to name a few, that meet official US definitions of "terrorism" - that is, when Americans apply the term to enemies.

In the most sober establishment journal, Foreign Affairs, Samuel Huntington wrote in 1999: "While the US regularly denounces various countries as 'rogue states,' in the eyes of many countries it is becoming the rogue superpower ... the single greatest external threat to their societies."

Such perceptions are not changed by the fact that, on September 11, for the first time, a western country was subjected on home soil to a horrendous terrorist attack of a kind all too familiar to victims of western power. The attack goes far beyond what's sometimes called the "retail terror" of the IRA, FLN or Red Brigades.

The September 11 terrorism elicited harsh condemnation throughout the world and an outpouring of sympathy for the innocent victims. But with qualifications.

An international Gallup poll in late September found little support for "a military attack" by the US in Afghanistan. In Latin America, the region with the most experience of US intervention, support ranged from 2% in Mexico to 16% in Panama.

The current "campaign of hatred" in the Arab world is, of course, also fueled by US policies toward Israel-Palestine and Iraq. The US has provided the crucial support for Israel's harsh military occupation, now in its 35th year.

One way for the US to lessen Israeli-Palestinian tensions would be to stop refusing to join the long-standing international consensus that calls for recognition of the right of all states in the region to live in peace and security, including a Palestinian state in the currently occupied territories (perhaps with minor and mutual border adjustments).

In Iraq, a decade of harsh sanctions under US pressure has strengthened Saddam Hussein while leading to the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis - perhaps more people "than have been slain by all so-called weapons of mass destruction throughout history", military analysts John and Karl Mueller wrote in Foreign Affairs in 1999.

Washington's present justifications to attack Iraq have far less credibility than when President Bush Sr was welcoming Saddam as an ally and a trading partner after he had committed his worst brutalities - as in Halabja, where Iraq attacked Kurds with poison gas in 1988. At the time, the murderer Saddam was more dangerous than he is today.

As for a US attack against Iraq, no one, including Donald Rumsfeld, can realistically guess the possible costs and consequences. Radical Islamist extremists surely hope that an attack on Iraq will kill many people and destroy much of the country, providing recruits for terrorist actions.

They presumably also welcome the "Bush doctrine" that proclaims the right of attack against potential threats, which are virtually limitless. The president has announced: "There's no telling how many wars it will take to secure freedom in the homeland." That's true.

Threats are everywhere, even at home. The prescription for endless war poses a far greater danger to Americans than perceived enemies do, for reasons the terrorist organizations understand very well.

Twenty years ago, the former head of Israeli military intelligence, Yehoshaphat Harkabi, also a leading Arabist, made a point that still holds true. "To offer an honorable solution to the Palestinians respecting their right to self-determination: that is the solution of the problem of terrorism," he said. "When the swamp disappears, there will be no more mosquitoes."

At the time, Israel enjoyed the virtual immunity from retaliation within the occupied territories that lasted until very recently. But Harkabi's warning was apt, and the lesson applies more generally.

Well before September 11 it was understood that with modern technology, the rich and powerful will lose their near monopoly of the means of violence and can expect to suffer atrocities on home soil.

If we insist on creating more swamps, there will be more mosquitoes, with awesome capacity for destruction.

If we devote our resources to draining the swamps, addressing the roots of the "campaigns of hatred", we can not only reduce the threats we face but also live up to ideals that we profess and that are not beyond reach if we choose to take them seriously.




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