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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2086390 - 11/09/03 11:20 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Nazi Germany was a leader of theoretical physics. A large portion of their scientists defected to the US after WW2 to work on cold war nuclear projects to advoid war crime charges. I'll even name some names of anyone is interested.

They certainly had the brainpower and resources to develop these weapons and probably would have done so within a few years.


good point. another logical error for pinky is that he's considering what actually happened to try to show that Germany was not a threat, forgetting the fact that things turned out the way they did because the US got involved in the war. it would make more sense here to consider what would have happened if we didn't get involved.
if all those Nazi scientists continued to work for Germany, the history of the 20th century would have been completely different. consider the example of Wernher Von Braun, who designed the V2 rocket as a Nazi scientist. after the war he and his team came to the US to continue their work and he became the head of the US military's ballistic missile program. later in life, he also "became director of NASA?s Marshall Space Flight Center and the chief architect of the Saturn V launch vehicle, the superbooster that would propel Americans to the Moon."


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Registered: 04/17/03
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Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2086394 - 11/09/03 11:23 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Unquestionably. A third reich from europe to the middle east with Japan mopping up south east asia would have have given the axis powers just as much control of the US as an invasion of the country itself.




Speculation it never happened. What about the Soviet Union? Any way you look at it Germany was incapable of defeating the USSR in the long term, the best the nazi's could have hoped for was the cessation of USSR's western provinces, lebensraum for the german people. Italy's armies in Africa were about as effective as an army of OAP's armed with nostalgic stories. But none of this has any real relevance anyway

Quote:

that has NOT attacked us and has NOT declared war on us?




Britain and France declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland, neither had been attacked and Germany didn't declare war on either. Its how alliance treaties work.


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2086400 - 11/09/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Speculation it never happened.

Wake up. We're talking about potential "threats" here.

Any way you look at it Germany was incapable of defeating the USSR in the long term

The right-wing americans arn't going to like that. They're pretty much convinced they won the war.

Britain and France declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland, neither had been attacked and Germany didn't declare war on either.

Yeah but it was a helluva good fucking bet they were going to be attacked sooner or later wasn't it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2086425 - 11/09/03 11:43 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

good point. another logical error for pinky is that he's considering what actually happened to try to show that Germany was not a threat, forgetting the fact that things turned out the way they did because the US got involved in the war. it would make more sense here to consider what would have happened if we didn't get involved.
if all those Nazi scientists continued to work for Germany, the history of the 20th century would have been completely different. consider the example of Wernher Von Braun, who designed the V2 rocket as a Nazi scientist. after the war he and his team came to the US to continue their work and he became the head of the US military's ballistic missile program. later in life, he also "became director of NASA?s Marshall Space Flight Center and the chief architect of the Saturn V launch vehicle, the superbooster that would propel Americans to the Moon."




Then your logical error would be you seem to believe you know what would have happened had the USA not been involved. Like I have stated Germany's nuclear weapon project was far from complete. Although German scientists were some of the most well versed in the world, the majority of them had fled before the war, it was Einstein that actually warned the USA of the possibility of a bomb more powerful than anyone could imagine.
If America had not entered the war, I dont see how this is possible as you really didn't have a choice, it would have taken Germany years to develop a nuclear weapon especially one with anything near the required range.
Couple this with the economic instability, the mammoth task of occupying practically a whole continent and the lack of resources (hence erzats) along with the reasons I explained in my earlier posts it seems extremely unlikely the Nazi's would have developed a nuke by the end of the decade and that's being incredibly optimistic. As for Wernher von Braun he was excellent scientist but the majority of his intercontinental ballistic and space work was accomplished in America which had the economic and industrial power with which to accomplish this.


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2086432 - 11/09/03 11:49 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Speculation it never happened

of course it never happened... :rolleyes:
it didn't happen because America did enter WWII. remember?

Britain and France declared war on Germany after the invasion of Poland, neither had been attacked and Germany didn't declare war on either. Its how alliance treaties work.

they had their own justifiable reasons to declare war (mostly for self defense).
but I don't get your point here. what does this have to do with Iraq declaring war on us? did Iraq declare war? or attack our citizens? or provoke us in any way as Germany did in WWII?

 


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2086435 - 11/09/03 11:51 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Unquestionably. A third reich from europe to the middle east with Japan mopping up south east asia would have have given the axis powers just as much control of the US as an invasion of the country itself.




Still, you're above statement is incorrect, your terminology should reflect your discussing a possibility, it doesn't...

Quote:

The right-wing americans arn't going to like that. They're pretty much convinced they won the war.




The allies won the war, America's involvement not only after pearl harbour but before was vital. If America had not entered the war who knows, it could be the third reich (encompassing the UK) fighting the communists.....

Quote:

Yeah but it was a helluva good fucking bet they were going to be attacked sooner or later wasn't it.




True France would have undoubtly been attacked, as for Britain who knows negotiations could have taken place. Like I have mentioned a lot of top Nazi's hoped war with Britain could be avoided, they believed we were both from normadic descent... How nice.





--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2086456 - 11/09/03 12:04 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

As for Wernher von Braun he was excellent scientist but the majority of his intercontinental ballistic and space work was accomplished in America which had the economic and industrial power with which to accomplish this.

we had the economic and industrial power because we entered the war, won it and reaped the technological spoils.


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2086480 - 11/09/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

True, the USA reaped huge benfits from the war it finally killed off the depresion in effect. However we are mxing points, I commented on Germanys nuclear weapon development, which thus far has been misused.

Germany declared war on Poland
Britain and France declared war on Germany
Germany declared war on the USA

Iraq declared on Kuwait
UK & US declared war on Iraq
*conditional surrender signed, Iraq violated agreement*
UK & US declare war on Iraq

Where we seem to disagree is validity of going to war for the defense of others, the best example of this can be seen in bold. If you believe the only justifications for going to war are either a declaration of war against you or if there is an imminent threat ( :lol: thought i'd throw it in for good measure) to the population, then Amercia has a lot of apologising to do....

edit: Mistake


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


Edited by st0nedphucker (11/09/03 12:18 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2086501 - 11/09/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Still, you're above statement is incorrect, your terminology should reflect your discussing a possibility, it doesn't...

actually his statement did just that, or did you miss the "would have" part there?

The allies won the war, America's involvement not only after pearl harbour but before was vital. If America had not entered the war who knows

so if America didn't get involved, would you agree that the allies would have most likely lost the war? that would leave America surrounded by technologically advanced enemies with almost limitless resources wouldn't it? is it so fartetched to think that America was acting in self-defense in WWII?

Like I have mentioned a lot of top Nazi's hoped war with Britain could be avoided

apparently not the same top Nazis that decided to bomb civilians in London and lob V-2 rockets across the channel.

Iraq declared on Kuwait
UK & US declared war on Iraq
*conditional surrender signed, Iraq violated agreement*
UK & US declare war on Iraq


are you saying violating a surrender agreement is identical to a declaration of war? in that case, Germany declared war on the world long before 1941, because they repeatedly violated the treaty of Versailles.

Where we seem to disagree is validity of going to war for the defense of others, the best example of this can be seen in bold.

you mean this: "Germany declared war on Poland
Britain and France declared war on Germany"?

I don't think Britain and France declared war on Germany to defend Poland. I think they were looking after their own asses.

then Amercia has a lot of apologising to do....

no not really. we just have to be honest with our justifications for war. we invaded Iraq for perceived self-interest, not because we wanted to save the Iraqis. and we fought in WWII for self-interest, not to defend the French or the Poles.


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