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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 22 days
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817025 - 08/15/03 03:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
We aren't going to choose their government for them.




Quote:

shakta said:Yes we approved these people, but they will be drafting their own Constitution.




Quote:

shakta said:We are just going to make sure we don't end up with another Taliban or Saddam in the country. 




'we' don't need to worry about it as it is not 'our' country! :shake:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1817028 - 08/15/03 03:08 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You are right, you Canadians don't need to worry about it. The countries involved with operation do.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 22 days
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817030 - 08/15/03 03:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
The problem with just leaving them on their own right now, is they are not yet able to come to an agreement. You have three different major portions of the population that generally dislike each other. They also tend not to understand the concept of the future all that much. If we left right now the country would turn into a nightmare of chaos.




some would argue that saddams atrocities were for the greater good of keeping the country from plumeting into civil war, and chaos. It is not a true democracy so all america did was invade and gain control of a soverign nation.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1817032 - 08/15/03 03:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Some would call that argument fucking retarded as well.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817040 - 08/15/03 03:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Also, it was not only America who invaded as you very well know.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
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Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817043 - 08/15/03 03:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Then i would like to hear the reasoning.  I mean all the casualties in this war and the last are for the greater good.  Saddam can't kill any more people so the couple thousand that died were acceptable losses.  Well in his mind he killed families of the rebels, but the ensuing casualities would have been worse

Its all in the name of the greater good, but i understand why you wouldget you panties in twist. :smirk:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817080 - 08/15/03 03:26 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If we left right now the country would turn into a nightmare of chaos.

Don't be so melodramatic. What do you think conditions were like for the last 12 years while the US subjected Iraq to medieval sanctions policy that left 750,000 iraqi children under 5 dead? Not to mention bombing them regularly. It's a good bet that most Iraqis would loathe any US appointed government with all their heart and soul.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1817089 - 08/15/03 03:28 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

When the Army starts executing Iraqis by the thousands for disagreeing with them get back to me. There have been demonstrations against the occupation quite often. The soldiers let them happen unless the protestors get violent. You defending Saddam's actions makes you look pretty sad.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817100 - 08/15/03 03:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Punishment without trial

Hundreds of Iraqis civilians are being held in makeshift jails run by US troops - many without being charged or even questioned. And in these prisons are children whose parents have no way of locating them. Jonathan Steele reveals the grim reality of coalition justice in Baghdad

Friday August 15, 2003
The Guardian

It was a warm spring evening in a Baghdad suburb when American troops stopped the car in which 11-year-old Sufian Abd al-Ghani was riding close to his home with his uncle and a neighbour. They were ordered out and told to lie face down on the road. Sufian's father heard the commotion and rushed out to find the soldiers pointing their rifles at his son and the others. Claiming the uncle had fired at them, they started beating the three captives with their rifle butts, according to the father.
A neighbour confirms that a shot had been fired, but it was part of a row between the Ghanis and another family. "In Iraq this is normal. Almost every household in Baghdad owns a weapon. One man was drunk. The Americans must have heard the shot as they were passing. It was not directed at them," says the neighbour, who prefers not to be named.

The American soldiers searched the Ghanis' house, but found nothing. For three hours Sufian was kept on the ground with the two adults. Then the Americans put hoods over their heads, tied their hands with tight plastic bracelets, and drove them away. "Why are you taking my son?" a desperate Abdullah Ghani pleaded. "Don't worry. As he's a child, we'll send him back in a couple of days," a Sergeant Stark assured him.

........

After 24 days the boy's ordeal was over, but he regularly has nightmares. However, his case is not the worst in the four months since the Americans occupied Iraq. Several children have been shot dead, some as passengers in cars which fell foul of American checkpoints, some mistaken at night for adults. But if those deaths were the result of accidents, how is it that an 11-year-old could be held for over three weeks without anyone in authority asking questions?

The answer is: easily. Sufian's detention highlights the problems faced by hundreds of Iraqis: arrests followed by incompetent interrogation, or none at all; the lack of an efficient trial-or-release system; shocking prison conditions; constant buck-passing; and sloppy paperwork by the coalition authorities. The result is that in almost every case families take weeks or months to find out where their loved ones are being detained.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1019096,00.html



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: Xlea321]
    #1817122 - 08/15/03 03:38 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

thats fucked up.

americans are assholes, man.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: ]
    #1817127 - 08/15/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Yep, we are.


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: Xlea321]
    #1817136 - 08/15/03 03:41 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Were is the part were we executed thousands of Iraqis for protesting?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817152 - 08/15/03 03:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think those 750,000 under fives would have been too big on protesting.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817153 - 08/15/03 03:47 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

that hasnt happened yet


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: Xlea321]
    #1817158 - 08/15/03 03:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Nice try.


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OfflineDeepDish2
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 55
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817160 - 08/15/03 03:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

BTW, people said the same thing when our government was built on democratic principles.

What people said this, and how does the situation in Iraq even remotely resemble the creation of the United States of America? What makes you so sure that the United States is looking out for the best interests of Iraq, and its people? Since neither of us is in Iraq, nor do we have access to government policy, I think the best way to look at examine true intent is to look at the United States history of regime change. History proves you wrong; the United States is notorious for installing regimes which benifit us rather than the people living in the country (Saddam Hussein being a perfect example). In fact I challenge you to find one example of the United States instituting a regime change in any country where the people benefited.
Now maybe this time around our motives are pure, it could happen, but at this point it seems that the United States has everything to gain and little to lose by taking advatage of the Iraqi's.


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: DeepDish2]
    #1817167 - 08/15/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Damn good point dude. I wished you'd post here more often!


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: DeepDish2]
    #1817174 - 08/15/03 03:54 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I believe Ben Franklin thought it would never work at all. We are looking out for our best interests first of course. This would include not having another militant Islamic government in the region. As far as an example goes, how about Japan, Germany, or Afghanistan. I know Afghanistan has not realized it's potential yet. How about some examples of this notoriou history of regime change. We did not put Saddam in power.


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OfflineTheHobbit
Pot Head Pixie

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 863
Loc: the Oily Way...
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: shakta]
    #1817188 - 08/15/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"americans are assholes, man"

Well, some are, and you'll ultimately find assholes all over the world, but of course there's good people who care as well, but they aren't running the government, obviously.

"Were is the part were we executed thousands of Iraqis for protesting?"

Oh man, sad to say, but give it time. American troops, who want the fuck out now anyway, have killed thousands of innocent civilians in this whole mess, so I guess it's a matter of what's worse, people dying because they want change, or people dying because another country wants change - either way the people are fucked.



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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible" [Re: TheHobbit]
    #1817190 - 08/15/03 04:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You are missing the point. I agree it is very sad for any innocent civilian to die. It happens in war though unfortunately. Azmodeus was trying to argue that Saddam executing 300,000 Iraqis was for the greater good.


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