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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2070155 - 11/04/03 03:25 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

No, he's to blame for not compying with the surrender agreement.

Still as disingenuous as always I see.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2070227 - 11/04/03 03:50 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Nope, try again.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2070233 - 11/04/03 03:52 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Nope, try again.



There's nothing to try Alpo.

He didn't comply, he's out of power.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleMazzyStar
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Registered: 10/12/03
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: ]
    #2070238 - 11/04/03 03:55 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

no one sane....."if you're still free, start running away"


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2070283 - 11/04/03 04:20 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

It's a war zone Alpo. I don't lose any sleep over what happens there. 




Yeah and who turned it into a fucking warzone? Oh thats right, Saddam for not giving up WMDS that he didnt have..... 



So you're finally waking up as to who's to blame. Well better late than never.

And we still don't know he didn't have them. 



And how do we know YOU don't have them?  I demand inspections of all your property.  Otherwise I'll be forced to invade.  :wink:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2070302 - 11/04/03 04:35 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

He didn't comply, he's out of power.

What are you talking about? Comply with what?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2070321 - 11/04/03 04:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Should I ever invade another home (country), and then sign a surrender agreement and fail to comply with it, invade away. Besides, I've already shown you guys where the WMD's are.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (11/05/03 03:41 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2070332 - 11/04/03 04:48 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

wait a minute. so you're extracting an event (the invasion of Hitler's Europe) from its context (WWII) and comparing it to the invasion of Iraq??? context doesn't matter? is everything the same "in principle" to you? can there possibly be DIFFERENT principles at work in DIFFERENT situations?

Of course there can. However, the fundamental principle in these two situations is identical -- in the act of defending others (the people of the enslaved countries) innocent civilians were killed. You keep claiming there are different principles involved, but I can't help but notice you fail to identify the principles to which you refer. Which principle was operating in the Allied invasion of Europe which was not operating in the coalition's invasion of Iraq?

we were not there "liberating Europe", we were driving back Hitler's army and we happened to take back some land in the process.

Why even bother driving back Hitler's army? If it was Germany we were at war with, why did we not invade Germany rather than invading France? Germany has a coastline. Why fight your way through the entire German army and press hundreds and hundreds of miles inland, killing thousands of civilians in the process rather than going straight to the source?

it isn't just a matter of scale. there are different principles at work, such as self-defence.

What self defense? When did Germany attack America? We weren't defending America or Canada or Australia from the Germans. We were defending those Germany had already conquered. In other words, we were defending others. That is the only principle under discussion here -- whether or not it is ethical to defend others even if in so doing non-combatants may be killed. If you are talking about some other principle, please outline it for us. Thanks.

as I already explained to you, Germany declared war on us. you could ignore this point all you want, but it makes a HUGE difference. when a country formally declares war on you (for whatever reason), you are justified in attacking it.

So the declaration of a megalomaniac with no way of backing up his hollow declaration with actual acts of war makes it morally permissible to kill civilians? Fine. What other declarations make it morally permissible to kill civilians? Would a violated conditional agreement ceasefire fit the bill? If not, why not?

why this fixation on specifics? can't you see the big picture?

You are the one insisting (correctly) that we look at context. Fine. Let's look at the context. Germany was an ocean away, with no way of delivering any kind of military power against the United States -- with the possible exception of some commando teams landed by U-boat.

the reason I mentioned German weapons is not because any specific one was capable of reaching us.

If none could reach us, then there was certainly no need to defend ourselves from them, let alone travel all the way across the ocean and involve ourselves in a dispute between European nations.

I was only pointing out that there was military and technological parity (more or less) between the major powers during WWII.

What has that to do with the morality of killing civilians?

it was an epic struggle for world domination between major world powers.

Actually, no it wasn't. It was a struggle for the domination of Europe and Russia by the Fascists and the Communists. America could have (and many argued at the time should have) let the Europeans sort it out, and protected itself from invasion.

it was a DIFFERENT SITUATION than the one we faced in Iraq. why is this so hard to understand?

Of course the specifics of the two situations are not identical. But the principle involved is identical -- the Americans made a conscious decision to take action they knew would involve the deaths of innocents in order to depose a ruthless dictator that posed no direct threat to America.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2072002 - 11/05/03 01:06 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Should I ever invade another home (country), and then sign a surrender agreement and fail to comply with it, inspect away

Inspecting is fair enough luv, it's the invasion part we're having trouble with.

Besides, I've already shown you guys where the WMD's are.

Then you should take this information to the authorities and earn yourself 25 million dollars today.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2072300 - 11/05/03 03:41 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I would have thought even you would realize I used the wrong word in my sentence. I'll correct it for you since you seem unable to make the leap in your mind.

As for the 25 mil, you take my "proof" and show it to whomever you wish.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2072334 - 11/05/03 04:15 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I would have thought even you would realize I used the wrong word in my sentence

You are unclear even when using the "right" words luv.

And I've repeatedly asked you to show me precisely where the "surrender agreement" says anyone can invade Iraq.

As for the 25 mil, you take my "proof" and show it to whomever you wish.

No, because I know it's bullshit. If you think it's "proof" go and collect your 25 million. You owe it to yourself.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2072346 - 11/05/03 04:22 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

You've never asked me that question Alpo. Unless you can show me where you did?

Of course it's bullshit Alpo. It's a cartoon.

Shall I explain cartoons to you?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2072351 - 11/05/03 04:28 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

When you said "He didn't comply, he's out of power".

I asked you to try again. Explain to us how you got from "he didn't comply" to "he's out of power".

Comply with what? Invade on the basis of what?

Of course it's bullshit

I'm glad you agree.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Evolving]
    #2072367 - 11/05/03 04:54 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Factor in deaths caused by sanctions etc and it might be a much closer run thing.




Sanctions that were put in place because of Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, by the UN (The UN and Coalition are seperate entities).
Although the US and UK used their "political muscle" to stop the sanctions being lifted or "reformed", as the French and Russians would call it, they were in place so they could be used as leverage for Iraqi disarmament. Which was the UNSC's idea....




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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2072413 - 11/05/03 05:45 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

As you yourself say, the US was the driving force behind the sanctions. Everyone knows the Russians and the French were interested in doing business with Iraq so they would more than likely have agreed to relaxing the sanctions. There is no doubt that the sanctions crippled the country and caused the death of a huge amount of Iraqis. Just because Iraq invaded Kuwait (After consulting the US and being given the ok) does not mean it is ok to cripple a country and kill its people through sanctions.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2073650 - 11/05/03 02:45 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Really Al, lame.

He didn't comply with the surrender agreement or 1441.

He's now out of power.

I can't dumb it down any more for you


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2074077 - 11/05/03 05:02 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

How exactly did Saddam not comply with 1441? Can we have a few specifics, my memory is not really great and I cant be bothered to do a search as you seem to know anyway.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2074132 - 11/05/03 05:17 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Nah, you'll get more from it by reading it yourself.

I'll be glad to provide a link if you need help. As your reading bear in mind the other resolutions mentioned.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2075602 - 11/05/03 11:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

He didn't comply with the surrender agreement

Could you inform us what this "surrender agreement" is that you are referring to? Precisely who signed it, who formulated it.

He's now out of power.

Once again, I ask you to explain why you relate breaking a UN resolution with being "out of power".



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2075640 - 11/05/03 11:53 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Nah, you'll get more from it by reading it yourself.

To be honest it sounds like Gazz knows infinitely more about this topic than you.

Anyone who refers to a "surrender agreement" without knowing what it consisted of makes me highly suspicious.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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