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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2063714 - 11/01/03 08:27 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Why is it that most of the so called "libertarians" on this board are in favor of this war when one of the central tenets of the libertarian party and libertarian literature is "protect our own borders"?


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by monoamine (11/01/03 08:32 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2063826 - 11/01/03 09:27 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Most of the "libertarians" on this board just call themselves that because it sounds cooler than "Republicans."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2063842 - 11/01/03 09:35 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

You win first prize. :smile:


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2063850 - 11/01/03 09:39 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I belong to the Libertarian Party of AZ, not the national one owned by Harry Brown.

Do you people registered as democrats support everything in that party's platform?

I am ideologically impure. Sue me.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2063853 - 11/01/03 09:40 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I know I'm a libertarian because I took their little test and it told me I was.

That test is accurate right?



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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: wingnutx]
    #2063856 - 11/01/03 09:42 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

That's called hypocracy. All liberals support communism.

Didn't you know that?

For shame!


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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2063861 - 11/01/03 09:44 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I suppose I could go reregister as a republican, but then I'd be out of step with the party's platform there, too.

I guess I am just screwed.



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: wingnutx]
    #2063876 - 11/01/03 09:54 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

You could form the wingnutxarians.


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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2063882 - 11/01/03 09:57 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Or he could just register as an independent.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2063887 - 11/01/03 10:04 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, I bet all you silversoul7ocrats say that.


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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2063910 - 11/01/03 10:17 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

monoamine writes:

Why is it that most of the so called "libertarians" on this board are in favor of this war when one of the central tenets of the libertarian party and libertarian literature is "protect our own borders"?

1) I have explained before that I am not exactly a "Libertarian". That definition is too broad for me. I am a Laissez-faire Capitalist, or a minarchist. Since virtually no one in this forum has any idea of what either of those two terms means, I find it easier to let myself be thought of as a Libertarian. It's close enough to use most of the time.

2) Nowhere in this forum, ever, have I said I was in favor of the invasion. As a matter of fact, I have said dozens of times and I will say it again now -- I remain unconvinced it was the right thing for the US, the UK, Australia, Italy, Spain, Poland and others to depose Hussein through military action at the time they did. My reasons for holding this position are different from the reasons the anti-war crowd gives, though.

The thing is, the reasons given for letting Hussein remain in power are less convincing than the reasons given for removing him, the Monday morning quarterbacking is ludicrous, virtually none of the things the anti-war crowd predicted would happen did happen, and the Iraqis are undeniably better off than they were before.

Go back in this thread to my first post. Read it. Then read the next ones and the next. It all started when I asked Silversoul7 if it was okay to defend others. It moved from there to a comparison between WWII and the Iraq invasion.

I have said countless times in the past and I will say it again now -- one has the right to defend one's self and to assist others in defending themselves. One does not have the obligation (short of a contractual obligation) to do either.

If you choose to be a pacifist and not resist those who attempt to kill you, that is your business and no one else's. If you choose to be a pacifist and let others be murdered rather than come to their aid, that is likewise your business and no one else's. On this, mushmaster and I are in agreement -- it was not the obligation of any of the countries I named above (or any other country for that matter) to come to the aid of the Iraqi people. Those countries could quite properly have let the Iraqis deal with it on their own. This was the stance taken by all the other countries in the world -- "Too bad, so sad, Achmed Iraqi. We feel your pain, we really do, but y'all will have to handle it on your own. Shit happens. Not our problem."

However, to claim that those countries had no right to come to the aid of the Iraqi people is another thing entirely. They certainly did have the right.

What I object to is the insistence of virtually every anti-war poster here on claiming that the US/UK/et al broke "international law", or -- even more ridiculous -- that it was not permissable because only 30 some countries publicly approved, but the invasion would magically have become okay if 90 some countries had approved. Ethical principles aren't decided by what the whim of the majority happens to be on any given day of the week. Either it was ethically permissible for other countries to come to the aid of the Iraqis or it wasn't. I ask again, by what logical principle can one pretend that if 96 countries say it's okay, then it's okay, but if only 94 say it's okay, then it's a no go?

pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2064113 - 11/02/03 12:48 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I doubt that any sane person ever "favours" going to war. However, there are ppl in America more mature than myself who honestly believe that we are faced with a choice between the agressive and genocidal seizure mideast oil (starting with Iraq) vs. allowing millions of American families to freeze and/or starve to death as a result of lack of affordable energy. The question of whether or not we should have invaded Iraq is actually a question of whether such a condition of scarcity -- which requires killing or being killed -- is iminent, and if so, whether we have enough time -- let alone the willpower -- to turn the Titanic and abandon our oil-intensive lifestyles before agression really does become a matter of survival.


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (11/02/03 12:49 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2064215 - 11/02/03 02:17 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Now it has a real chance. I just hope people don't start whining about how much money it's costing us and drop the ball, and let Iraq slip back into another tyranical regime.

So you genuinely believe that Donald Rumsfield has shifted in the last 20 years from flying thousands of miles to shake Saddams hand and do buisness with him - not giving the faintest fuck about the freedom of the Iraqi people, to being so concerned he has to invade to "free" them?

All I'm saying is just consider the possibility that Donald hasn't changed at all. And that the freedom of the Iraqi people is as important to him now as it was 20 years ago.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2064292 - 11/02/03 03:30 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I never said using modern weapons was not justified.

Yeah you did. Your objection to the Iraq war was that civilians would die by being too close too bomb blasts intended for targets other than themselves. It is not just bombs that go astray. So do artillery rounds, rockets, mortar rounds, RPGs grenades, bullets, arrows, crossbow bolts, javelins, boomerangs. The only kind of weaponry which doesn't is handheld weaponry -- swords and cudgels.


wtf? re-read the orginal exchange, post #2062292. I never said anything about mortar rounds, javelins, boomerangs or cudgels. you thought I did, and went off on a tangent. I was only pointing out that your moral equation is incomplete when you compare our invasion of Iraq to an individual giving aid to another individual because you leave out a key variable - the innocent civilians. I was merely explaining that when you pronounce that "the fundamental principle remains the same. it is just a matter of scale." you are making an error in logic and that you are completely and utterly wrong. the fundamental principle is not the same and it isn't just a matter of scale. once again I see that your posts could use less words and more logic because writing is easy... but logic is a bitch.

and not surprisingly, you go off on another tangent with your ridiculous argument that "in principle" WWII was the same as the invasion of Iraq. do you honestly not recognize that those are DIFFERENT SITUATIONS? is this too hard a concept for you to grasp? maybe it takes a nuanced mind to see these things... don't you feel the least bit silly having been cornered into defending Hitler? or making the grand statement - in an appalling display of historical ignorance - that "Germany was never a direct threat to the United States." do you not see how sticking to your same principles in fundamentally different situations leaves you in indefensible and ridiculous positions? try to see the big picture.

and please don't bore us with another 10 page response. less words, more critical thinking.. please.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2064383 - 11/02/03 05:28 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

monoamine said:
Quote:

Ah... an affirmative action army.




Yes,that's exactly what I was talking about you rhetorical bastard.
For every blue-eyed white boy,I want a retard,a parapelgic,a Mexican,a black guy, and an asian kid.



Yes but what of the Eskimos?

And the children. For the love of all that's sacred... don't forget the children!


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2064387 - 11/02/03 05:31 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Methinks you confuse the ability to realize that the war was of a benefit to the Iraqi people with being in favor of the war.

I didn't wish for a war, yet good has come from it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2064527 - 11/02/03 08:45 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

wtf? re-read the orginal exchange, post #2062292. I never said anything about mortar rounds, javelins, boomerangs or cudgels. you thought I did, and went off on a tangent. I was only pointing out that your moral equation is incomplete when you compare our invasion of Iraq to an individual giving aid to another individual because you leave out a key variable - the innocent civilians. I was merely explaining that when you pronounce that "the fundamental principle remains the same. it is just a matter of scale." you are making an error in logic and that you are completely and utterly wrong. the fundamental principle is not the same and it isn't just a matter of scale.

Here is what you wrote in the referenced post -- when an individual defends another from an agressor, he is retaliating only against the agressor. but when we bomb Iraq to save the Iraqis, we are not only "retaliating" against Saddam and his thugs, we are also knowingly killing innocent civilians in the process.

You are saying the difference between an individual defending another individual and a group defending another group is that in the course of defending the individual, the likelihood of third parties being injured is normally small, yet in the course of defending groups (especially with modern weaponry), the likelihood of third parties being injured is normally greater. Do I have that right?

Is this difference in likelihood not a matter of scale?

you go off on another tangent with your ridiculous argument that "in principle" WWII was the same as the invasion of Iraq.

For the third time, I did not compare the invasion of Iraq with WWII. I compared the invasion of Iraq with the invasion of Hitler's Europe. I don't know how much plainer I can make this.

You pointed out that in the course of liberating Iraq, Iraqi civilians were killed. I pointed out that in the course of liberating Europe, European civilians were killed. The only difference is one of scale. Far more European civilians were killed in the liberation of Europe than Iraqi civilians in the liberation of Iraq. If we are to condemn the one for this reason, we must therefore condemn the other for the same reason.

do you honestly not recognize that those are DIFFERENT SITUATIONS? is this too hard a concept for you to grasp?

Do you honestly not recognize that in principle, these are identical situations? Is this too hard a concept for you to grasp?

maybe it takes a nuanced mind to see these things... don't you feel the least bit silly having been cornered into defending Hitler?

Please point out to us the part where I defend Hitler.

...or making the grand statement - in an appalling display of historical ignorance - that "Germany was never a direct threat to the United States."

But Germany wasn't a direct threat to the United States. This was one of the arguments the "America First" crowd used for staying out of the war prior to Pearl Harbor. That particular argument of theirs was correct.

You speak of historical ignorance, yet you seem to believe Germany had some (as yet undisclosed) method for delivering troops or missiles or bombs across the ocean to American soil. They didn't. By December of 1941, the Atlantic was an American ocean, save for the U-Boats. And U-Boats could launch no missiles, no bombs, and deliver precious few infantry.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2064543 - 11/02/03 09:02 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

monoamine writes:

I was talking about feeding a starving population,not political dissidents.

So it is okay to let Hussein continuing murdering thousands of Iraqis, as long as they are well-fed first? Okay then. Note that the food distribution was controlled by the Ba'athists, not the NGOs. You do recall the warehouses stuffed to bursting with hoarded food that were discovered, don't you?

We don't live in a vacuum,when one country fucks around with another country,other countries get involved.

True. When Iraq "fucked around" with Kuwait, other countries got involved. But when Iraq "fucked around" with its own people, no one got involved, and everyone did their damndest to make sure the US/UK/et al didn't either. If this answer seems to be missing your point, it is probably because I can't tell from your vague answer exactly what your point was. Can you expand on it?

Perhaps if countries took a more global approach and actually used the U.N. for diplomacy every once in a while,we could advoid some unnessary bloodshed.

The thing is, the leaders of countries where the bloodshed is going on ignore the UN. How is this the fault of the countries who pay attention to the UN? By what specific method can said countries force the miscreants to pay attention to the UN?

Contrary to what Bush and co. may have you believe,Saddam did not sit around and eat babies all day. They had a system that was destroyed.

Destroyed by whom? Read the reports. The mess in Iraq's infrastructure is more from neglect than from any remaining bomb damage of twelve years ago.

Oh let's see...those countries hate us even more now (along with a large portion of the rest of the world).

Which countries? How specifically does their "hatred" decrease whatever stability there was prior to the invasion?

Oh yeah,I forgot.Their reasons changed every other day.

Oh yeah, I forgot -- some people seem incapable of grasping the fact that there may be multiple reasons for choosing a specific course of action.

pinky


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: wingnutx]
    #2066368 - 11/02/03 09:25 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I am ideologically impure. Sue me.




I took that in to account,I really did,but with the exception of Mark (who's opinion I'm not really sure of),I can't think of one self proclaimed Libertarian on this board that opposed the war.

I hate to be a pompous jackass,but I think what Silver said about "Libertarian" sounding better than "Republican" rings true.

P.S. I have a lawsuit against you pending. I don't like your opinions or your unhealthy food.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by monoamine (11/02/03 09:27 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2066537 - 11/02/03 10:31 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I can't think of one self proclaimed Libertarian on this board that opposed the war.

me. i believe evolving may fall into that category as well.


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