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OfflineDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2060838 - 10/31/03 02:08 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

England should have surrendered rather than fought in WWII?




I think fighting fascism is an individual responsibility. I support self-defense. War by an organized government... well, thats a different story. If there were no English military, but every private home was well equipped for self-defense, wouldn't it have been just as hard for Germans to overtake the English? Assuming that the private citizens had balls and hadnt been indoctrinated by the government into accepting oppression, that is.

Of course, organizing a defense in response to a highly organized threat is totally logical, but making that organization permenant is an invitation to disaster.

That having been said, I don't see how you could compare the English defending against the Nazis to America pre-emptively invading Iraq... unless, of course, you are comparing America to the Nazis...



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: ]
    #2060847 - 10/31/03 02:12 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

i wasn't talking to you alex.

Sorry mush but this is a public messageboard. Use PM's if you want it to be private.

she knows that "not all" of the people that post here have a life away from their computer.seems like a rather presumptous statement to me.

But that's not what she said is it. She said:

It's hard to feel compassion when you rarely have human contact in meaningful ways.

and

People here are pretty hard headed. Plus, they sit behind a computer screen all day hawking for the war.

Both of those statements are fair comment and are very easily deduced from various peoples postings. I don't think lysergic has any meaningful human contact with any of his "sand niggers" for example.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2060868 - 10/31/03 02:18 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Alex, you're my sand nigga. :smile:

They do not read my words.

They read their opinions. 

I find it interesting how the right always likes to say that the left is so emotional.  Well, Id like to contend that the right is awfully egocentric.

But that is neither here nor there, Alex is right. If you have a personal question for me, that has nothing to do with the topic...  It would be much better served with PMs instead of the dissolution of a perfectly valid threat.

That is all Ive got to say about that.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2061037 - 10/31/03 03:21 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I can personally say that I've touched the lives of a number of "sand niggers" (A phrase I use mainly in jest, and to offend liberal jackasses) when I was in Iraq, a very meaningful communication :smile:



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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2061049 - 10/31/03 03:24 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I think fighting fascism is an individual responsibility. I support self-defense. War by an organized government... well, thats a different story. If there were no English military, but every private home was well equipped for self-defense, wouldn't it have been just as hard for Germans to overtake the English? Assuming that the private citizens had balls and hadnt been indoctrinated by the government into accepting oppression, that is.





Private citizens would have stormed Normandy? Would they have build the boats in their backyards? How about defending against the Nazi bombing of London? Again, private citizenry?

Quote:


That having been said, I don't see how you could compare the English defending against the Nazis to America pre-emptively invading Iraq... unless, of course, you are comparing America to the Nazis...




Hitler was segreating the residents of Germany into groups, those that were gassed, and those that were not. Saddam did the same. No American president, recently at least, has done this.

Hitler FIRST invaded his neighbor, claming that it was their "right" to have that territory. Saddam FIRST invaded his neighbor, claming that it was their "right" to have that territory" No american president, recently at least, has done this.

i'm nto sure exactly what you are using to liken the US people/government to the Naziss, but it sounds much more like Saddam would fit that profile.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2061062 - 10/31/03 03:30 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zippoz said:
you can not create peace thorough war, i never supported it and never will, nor will i ever support any sort of armed forces or armies of any sort,




"never" is a strong word. Would you say that the European Jews are better or worse off now? Would you sit idly by and watch and entire race of people be exterminated? If their is a madman that is hurting large amounts of innocent people, and you can stop him (and his forces) only via destruction of them, then institute a government toreplace him that ISNT hellbent on gassing / mass extermination, is't that better than sitting by?


I think their is a word for what you described, cowardly.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: lysergic]
    #2061192 - 10/31/03 04:19 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

at least thats a nicer word than the one used to describe the validity of your arguments. :smirk:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #2061203 - 10/31/03 04:28 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

you can not create peace thorough war,

yes you can. this happens every time a defending army defeats an aggressor.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: ]
    #2061214 - 10/31/03 04:34 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

yes you can. this happens every time a defending army defeats an aggressor.



Yes, defending yourself is acceptable. A war of aggression is not.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2061556 - 10/31/03 07:14 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Silversoul7 writes:

Yes, defending yourself is acceptable.

And defending others?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061563 - 10/31/03 07:18 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Silversoul7 writes:

Yes, defending yourself is acceptable.

And defending others?



Questionable


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2061566 - 10/31/03 07:20 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

How so? Details, man, details.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061572 - 10/31/03 07:21 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

If someone does the right thing for the wrong reasons is it right or wrong?


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061602 - 10/31/03 07:38 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I mean it depends on the circumstances. Defending other nations from a genocidal dictator bent on world destruction and elimination of non-Aryans: good. Defending the non-Communist southern part of a country from Communists in the north when the majority of the people actually support the north: bad.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2061612 - 10/31/03 07:46 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Baby_Hitler asks:

If someone does the right thing for the wrong reasons is it right or wrong?

Now we are getting into philosophy rather than politics, but to answer your question, generally motivations are irrelevant. What counts is the action.

By "right" in this context, I presume you mean "moral" or "ethical"? If so, let's take a look at an example or two --

A man comes to the aid of a beautiful rich woman being mugged, chasing off the assailant. He has defended another, even though the assailant was no threat to him personally. Did he do a good thing or a bad thing? I say he did a good thing -- whether he came to her aid in the hopes of :

a) impressing his watching girlfriend (ego gratification)
b) in the hopes of scoring with the victim later (sexual gratification)
c) in the hopes the victim would reward him by making him her bodyguard (monetary gratification)
d) because the mugger was Hispanic and he hates Hispanics (racial prejudice)
e) because he is a violent Kung Fu fanatic who gets his kicks out of whupping people and he saw a chance to get away with full contact ass-kicking in a real life situation (expression of violent urges)
f) He recognized the assailant as someone who had ripped him off in a previous drug deal (personal revenge)
g) I'm sure you can think of many other scenarios.

The motivation was irrelevant. The action was what was relevant.

Now let's look at the flip side of the same coin. I say the action the mugger took was bad, regardless of his motivations. He initiated violence against a peaceful individual (the beautiful woman). His action becomes no less bad if his motivation for it was:

a) because he knew she had just purchased two tickets to a rock concert, and he was stealing them so he could take his dying-of-cancer twelve year old buddy to see his favorite band before he becomes too weak to leave the house
b) the woman was wearing a mink coat, and he is a member of PETA
c) she owns a dry-cleaning business which hires illegal Hispanics at less than minimum wage
d) fill in your own motivation here.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2061616 - 10/31/03 07:48 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Silversoul7 writes:

I mean it depends on the circumstances. Defending other nations from a genocidal dictator bent on world destruction and elimination of non-Aryans: good.

And what about the people within the borders of said dictator's country? They're on their own?

pinky


--------------------


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061662 - 10/31/03 08:10 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I just finished reading A History Of The Twentieth Century and I now I think I have a decent grasp of both world wars.

WW1 was the most meaningless and unjustified war ever fought. It got to the point where soldiers didn't even know what they where fighting for,they were just shooting so they didn't get shot. Alliances changed so often that soldiers on both sides would be shooting at each other one day,and having lunch the next. Hardly any territory was gained by any country. It was a total "my dick is bigger than yours" scenario.

And while I think America was justified in MOST of its actions in WW2, it was just a continuation of WW1.

My point being that any kind of physical violence should be a total last resort. It may improve things in the short term sometimes,but I think it just usually leads to even greater long term instability. The war in Iraq was not a last resort situation.Even if the people in Iraq do benefit somewhere in the future,the whole war will just lead to greater world wide instability in the long run.

No offense Mark (I really do mean that,I respect you),but your analogies of very small term events and wars are just stupid.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2061678 - 10/31/03 08:19 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)





Machine Gun
Words and Music by Jimi Hendrix
Copyright ? 1970, 1996 Experience Hendrix, L.L.C.

JIMI:
"HAPPY NEW YEAR FIRST OF ALL. I HOPE WE'LL HAVE
A MILLION OR TWO MILLION MORE OF THEM... IF WE
CAN GET OVER THIS SUMMER, HE HE HE. RIGHT I'D
LIKE TO DEDICATE THIS ONE TO THE DRAGGIN' SCENE
THAT'S GOIN' ON ALL THE SOLDIERS THAT ARE FIGHTIN'
IN CHICAGO, MILWAUKEE AND NEW YORK... OH YEAS, AND
ALL THE SOLDIERS FIGHTIN' IN VIETNAM. LIKE TO DO
A THING CALLED 'MACHINE GUN'."

MACHINE GUN
TEARING MY BODY ALL APART

MACHINE GUN
TEARING MY BODY ALL APART

EVIL MAN MAKE ME KILL YA
EVIL MAN MAKE YOU KILL ME
EVIL MAN MAKE ME KILL YOU
EVEN THOUGH WE'RE ONLY FAMILIES APART

WELL I PICK UP MY AXE AND FIGHT LIK A BOMBER
(YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN)
HEY AND YOUR BULLETS KEEP KNOCKING ME DOWN

HEY I PICK UP MY AXE AND FIGHT LIKE A BOMBER NOW
YEAH BUT YOU STILL BLAST ME DOWN TO THE GROUND

THE SAME WAY YOU SHOOT ME DOWN BABY
YOU'LL BE GOING JUST THE SAME
THREE TIMES THE PAIN
AND YOUR OWN SELF TO BLAME
HEY MACHINE GUN

OOOOOOOOOO

I AIN'T AFRAID OF YOUR MESS NO MORE, BABE
I AIN'T AFRAID NO MORE
AFTER A WHILE YOUR YOUR CHEAP TALK DON'T EVERN CAUSE ME PAIN
SO LET YOUR BULLETS FLY LIKE RAIN

'CAUSE I KNOW ALL THE TIME YOU'RE WRONG BABY
AND YOU'LL BE GOIN' JUST THE SAME
YEAH MACHINE GUN
TEARING MY FAMILY APART
YEAH YEAH ALRIGHT
TEARING MY FAMILY APART

DON'T YOU SHOOT HIM DOWN
HE'S ABOUT TO LEAVE HERE
DON'T YOU SHOOT HIM DOWN
HE'S GOT TO STAY HERE
HE AIN'T GOING NOWHERE
HE'S BEEN SHOT DOWN TO THE GROUND
OH WHERE HE CAN'T SURVIVE NO NO

YEAH THAT'S WHAT WE DON'T WANNA HEAR ANY MORE, ALRIGHT
NO BULLETS
AT LEAST HERE, HUH HUH
NO GUNS, NO BOMBS
HUH HUH
NO NOTHIN', JUST LET'S ALL LIVE AND LIVE
YOU KNOW INSTEAD OF KILLIN'




--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061700 - 10/31/03 08:29 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Silversoul7 writes:

I mean it depends on the circumstances. Defending other nations from a genocidal dictator bent on world destruction and elimination of non-Aryans: good.

And what about the people within the borders of said dictator's country? They're on their own?

pinky



Hard to say. Where do you draw the line? Would another country be justified in invading the US because of the way we treat drug users be justified? If not, then at what point is it justified?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2061747 - 10/31/03 08:58 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

monoamine writes:

WW1 was the most meaningless and unjustified war ever fought.

Pretty much, yeah.

And while I think America was justified in MOST of its actions in WW2, it was just a continuation of WW1.

And you say you feel you have a pretty good grasp of both wars? Sorry, you've got some work still ahead of you. WWII in no way was "just a continuation" of WWI. Not even close.

My point being that any kind of physical violence should be a total last resort.

Of course. And even then, it must be only in retaliation to violence already initiated by another.

It may improve things in the short term sometimes,but I think it just usually leads to even greater long term instability.

Ah. The mantra of the Democrats, the Europeans, and the UN. They would prefer the "stability" of murderous tyrants to the instability of free people. Much more predictable, huh?

The war in Iraq was not a last resort situation.

It sure was to hundreds of thousands or millions of Iraqis.

Even if the people in Iraq do benefit somewhere in the future...

"Even if"? "Somewhat"? Please, guy. Your personal prejudices are getting in the way of your perception of reality. You may have good reasons for opposing the war, but at least acknowledge the results that came from it.

...the whole war will just lead to greater world wide instability in the long run.

And I say the reverse is true. Let's have this same conversation a couple of years from now.

No offense Mark (I really do mean that,I respect you),but your analogies of very small term events and wars are just stupid.

No offense, mono, but those who are unable to grasp fundamental principles are at a disadvantage. Either it is ethical to lend a hand to someone unable to defend himself from a stronger aggressor or it isn't. Whether it is a single woman being mugged or a continent being overrun or a single country held in thrall by a murderous madman, the fundamental principle remains the same. It is just a matter of scale.

pinky


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