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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2066891 - 11/03/03 01:02 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't wish for a war, yet good has come from it.

Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that Bush is the "best of bad choices" again for the next election..


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2067216 - 11/03/03 03:31 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

After study, which I've been doing all along.... he is.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/06/02
Posts: 3,095
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2067235 - 11/03/03 03:48 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I have a better idea,don't vote for either fuckfaces. There probably isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a third party winning this election,but if more people took my attitude,it will snowball so big that one day the Republicrats will be crushed.

I'm still not sure if I'm going to vote democrat.As much as I despise Bush,I may vote third party depending on who runs.

At least I'll be able to sleep a little better at night and I know I did my part,anyway.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2067250 - 11/03/03 04:10 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

monoamine said:
I have a better idea,don't vote for either fuckfaces.



Gotta vote.


Quote:

There probably isn't a snowballs chance in hell of a third party winning this election



Sadly, you're right.


Quote:

,but if more people took my attitude,it will snowball so big that one day the Republicrats will be crushed.



Hopefully someday that will pass.


Quote:

I'm still not sure if I'm going to vote democrat.



I don't understand why anyone would.


Quote:

As much as I despise Bush



Say it isn't so!


Quote:

,I may vote third party depending on who runs.



I can understand your desire to do so.


Quote:

At least I'll be able to sleep a little better at night and I know I did my part,anyway.



As will I. For you see, if I vote for the libertarian, and if as a result of mine and others doing so one of the 9 stooges get elected, I'll feel I let both myself and the country down.

Hopefully you don't think I woke up one morning and just decided to start voting for the lesser of two evils? I gave it thought for a very long time before I was comfortable with the idea. (well as comfortable as can be anyway)

It would feel great to vote for the best man, and when I can safely do so that's how I vote. Sadly, when the race is as close as in 2000, I can't. Feeling good on election day isn't worth feeling a fool for 4 years if some jackass like Gore gets in.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2067317 - 11/03/03 05:47 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

just decided to start voting for the lesser of two evils?

Hang on luv, we've got Bush butchering thousands of innocent people on the basis of a lie and he's the "lesser of two evils"?

Is the democrat candidate Beelzebub?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2067342 - 11/03/03 06:22 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Hey Alex Beelzebub is bad but he aint that bad!


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Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Posts: 34,247
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2068220 - 11/03/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

It's a war zone Alpo. I don't lose any sleep over what happens there.

I have many concerns.

Taxes. Gun laws. Social handouts. Criminal penalties. Defense. Judges. And many more. I have to base my decision on who I think will be best for the majority of these concerns.

I don't give a fuck what you think of Bush, I care what I think of him and the 9 stooges.

Edit: Besides.... no-one has proved he lied. If and when someone does, I'll re-evaluate and go from there.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (11/03/03 02:53 PM)


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2069478 - 11/04/03 03:21 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It's a war zone Alpo. I don't lose any sleep over what happens there.




Yeah and who turned it into a fucking warzone? Oh thats right, Saddam for not giving up WMDS that he didnt have.....


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2069523 - 11/04/03 04:21 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

It's a war zone Alpo. I don't lose any sleep over what happens there.




Yeah and who turned it into a fucking warzone? Oh thats right, Saddam for not giving up WMDS that he didnt have.....



So you're finally waking up as to who's to blame. Well better late than never.

And we still don't know he didn't have them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2069524 - 11/04/03 04:21 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

once again you completely missed the point. read the post again. the whole thing. not just the part regarding the bombs, because it doesn't matter if innocent civilians are killed by bombs or javelins or arrows, as you like to say, in principle it is the same - innocent civilians being killed. I wasn't saying anything about specific weapons. my point was that your analogy of the woman getting attacked didn't mention innocent civilians at all. it was probably unintentional - they probably don't even enter your thought process.
and since you seem genuinely unable to see the difference here, I'll explain it one more time.

in your example you said:
"A man comes to the aid of a beautiful rich woman being mugged, chasing off the assailant. He has defended another, even though the assailant was no threat to him personally"

this is how you presented the moral situation in the war and if this was really accurate, I don't think anyone would have been against it. it's a situation of perfect moral clarity is it not? and this is how you see the war? that explains a few things, but unfortunately, this is an incomplete picture.

a better example would be:
A man comes to the aid of a group of people being murdered, chasing off the assailant. but in the process of defending them, he knows he will kill some innocent bystanders.

this would be a more accurate analogy to the war (heck, even luvdemshrooms had this straight!). a completely different situation that presents a greater moral dilemma. yet you compare your first scenario to the war and proclaim that "the fundamental principle remains the same. it is just a matter of scale."

you are obviously incorrect here. the fundamental principle is not the same and it is not just a matter of scale. you simply made another error in logic. no big deal, but you go on to say: "No offense, mono, but those who are unable to grasp fundamental principles are at a disadvantage" LOL!

well I say that those who are unable to grasp fundamental differences are at a severe disadvantage.

and since you have this demonstrated propensity to compare unlike things and claim that they are the same "in principle", it doesn't surprise me in the least to see you comparing WWII to the Iraq war.

For the third time, I did not compare the invasion of Iraq with WWII. I compared the invasion of Iraq with the invasion of Hitler's Europe. I don't know how much plainer I can make this.

wait a minute. so you're extracting an event (the invasion of Hitler's Europe) from its context (WWII) and comparing it to the invasion of Iraq??? context doesn't matter? is everything the same "in principle" to you? can there possibly be DIFFERENT principles at work in DIFFERENT situations?

You pointed out that in the course of liberating Iraq, Iraqi civilians were killed. I pointed out that in the course of liberating Europe, European civilians were killed

context! we were not there "liberating Europe", we were driving back Hitler's army and we happened to take back some land in the process. if we had killed millions of Germans in a "war of liberation", I would raise the same moral issues there as well. but clearly, the situation was different.

The only difference is one of scale

incorrect. it isn't just a matter of scale. there are different principles at work, such as self-defence. as I already explained to you, Germany declared war on us. you could ignore this point all you want, but it makes a HUGE difference. when a country formally declares war on you (for whatever reason), you are justified in attacking it.

You speak of historical ignorance, yet you seem to believe Germany had some (as yet undisclosed) method for delivering troops or missiles or bombs across the ocean to American soil. They didn't. By December of 1941, the Atlantic was an American ocean, save for the U-Boats. And U-Boats could launch no missiles, no bombs, and deliver precious few infantry.

again, you miss point the point. why this fixation on specifics? can't you see the big picture? the reason I mentioned German weapons is not because any specific one was capable of reaching us. I was only pointing out that there was military and technological parity (more or less) between the major powers during WWII. it was an epic struggle for world domination between major world powers. it was a DIFFERENT SITUATION than the one we faced in Iraq. why is this so hard to understand?




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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2069527 - 11/04/03 04:24 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Give it a rest, you lost yet another battle.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2069529 - 11/04/03 04:32 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

^^^
this from the paragon of objectivity here in the PA&L forum

:rolleyes:
 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: ]
    #2069534 - 11/04/03 04:44 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
I can't think of one self proclaimed Libertarian on this board that opposed the war.

me. i believe evolving may fall into that category as well.




what catagory would that be? "self proclaimed Libertarians"?

there are quite a few of those around here...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2069540 - 11/04/03 04:57 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

So you're finally waking up as to who's to blame. Well better late than never.

LOL!

Yeah, Saddams to blame for having WMD that he didn't have.

:lol:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2069668 - 11/04/03 07:42 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

The number of innocent civilains killed by Saddam is much greater than the number of innocents the coalition have "killed"...




--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2069709 - 11/04/03 08:02 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Factor in deaths caused by sanctions etc and it might be a much closer run thing.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2069719 - 11/04/03 08:07 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
^^^
this from the paragon of objectivity here in the PA&L forum

:rolleyes:
   




Yeah, I love his gimpy attempts at psychological warfare. :lol: 


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2069834 - 11/04/03 09:00 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
Quote:

mushmaster said:
I can't think of one self proclaimed Libertarian on this board that opposed the war.

me. i believe evolving may fall into that category as well.




what catagory would that be? "self proclaimed Libertarians"?



The category would be 'self proclaimed Libertarians on this board that opposed the war.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Evolving]
    #2069877 - 11/04/03 09:15 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

maybe it should have been 'self proclaimed Libertarians on this board that can't take a joke'


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2069884 - 11/04/03 09:17 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I can take a joke, try making one. :smile: 


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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