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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061754 - 10/31/03 09:05 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:


WW1 was the most meaningless and unjustified war ever fought.

Pretty much, yeah.






Really? How so?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2061758 - 10/31/03 09:09 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Silversoul7 writes:

Would another country be justified in invading the US because of the way we treat drug users be justified?

Sorry, but using the whole "treatment of drug users" thing in every argument is getting old, and is not relevant. There is an enormous difference between imprisoning people after a fair trial which determines whether or not someone has broken the law of the land. Especially when said law, like it or not, is still supported by a majority of Americans -- or does your precious "democratic will of the majority" only count on issues where you happen to be in the majority?

If not, then at what point is it justified?

There are arguments about exactly where the line should be drawn. But I think it fair to say that anyone who holds power illegitimately, allows no dissent, no freedom of speech or press, makes a habit of: invading neighboring countries, using chemical weapons repeatedly, murdering hundreds of thousands of people through some of the most grisly methods imaginable, having people who displease him raped and tortured and forcing the family of the victims to watch the videos of the process, signing a ceasefire agreement to save his own hide then refusing to abide by even a single term of said ceasefire for a dozen years, would be on the "needs elimination" side of that line.

pinky


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061763 - 10/31/03 09:15 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

And you say you feel you have a pretty good grasp of both wars? Sorry, you've got some work still ahead of you. WWII in no way was "just a continuation" of WWI. Not even close.




The world was in a economic depression,Germany was pissed off and on a war path,the Balkins were in shit,Russia was getting too big for it's britches,England was hysterical and building a war machine...close enough. It may have not been a direct continuation,but old grudges took the limelight. Slightly different players,same game.

Quote:

And even then, it must be only in retaliation to violence already initiated by another.




Retaliation just leads to more retaliation. Like I said,it often gets to the point where people don't even remember what they were originally fightig over.

Quote:

It sure was to hundreds of thousands or millions of Iraqis.




Yeah,it sucks,but certain people are going to suffer for the worldwide picture. There are other things we could have done,like I dunno...lift the sanctions?

Who knows the Iraqi's are going to be better off anyway? You don't know that,I don't know that. For all we know,the secular regime will just be changed to a fundalmentalist one.

Quote:

Even if"? "Somewhat"? Please, guy. Your personal prejudices are getting in the way of your perception of reality. You may have good reasons for opposing the war, but at least acknowledge the results that came from it.




Sorry,I didn't know you could predict the future. Perhaps all Iraqi's will have puppy dogs and candy caines too?

Quote:

And I say the reverse is true. Let's have this same conversation a couple of years from now.





/uses magical crystal ball

I see the same Crusades that have been going on for the last thousand years or so continuing.

Quote:

offense, mono, but those who are unable to grasp fundamental principles are at a disadvantage.




And what fundamental principles are those,Mark? That greedy,evil fucks ruin the world and the cycle of violence continues?

Because the U.S. cares so much about the world that aren't in it's own interests and all. Tell that to the four marines we sent to Liberia and the countless evil regimes that we didn't overthrow because they weren't economically viable.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2061787 - 10/31/03 09:34 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

monoamine writes:

Retaliation just leads to more retaliation.

Really? How much retaliating has Germany done in the last 58 years? Or Japan? How much retaliating has North Korea done in the last half century?

Who knows the Iraqi's are going to be better off anyway? You don't know that,I don't know that.

Yeah, we do. Not only will they be better off ayear from now, they are already. We don't need a crystal ball to tell us that... we just need to read the news.

For all we know,the secular regime will just be changed to a fundalmentalist one.

Fundamentalist governments need not necessarily be worse for the citizens of a country than life under the Ba'athists was.

Sorry,I didn't know you could predict the future. Perhaps all Iraqi's will have puppy dogs and candy caines too?

I'm not even talking about the future. I'm talking about today.

And what fundamental principles are those,Mark?

That the initiation of force in human affairs is forbidden, therefore those who initiate it may be stopped.

That greedy,evil fucks ruin the world and the cycle of violence continues?

See my comments re the greedy evil fucks who used to run Germany and Japan. Key phrase here being "used to".

Because the U.S. cares so much about the world that aren't in it's own interests and all.

The US had the right to aid the Iraqi people. They didn't have the obligation to.

Tell that to the four marines we sent to Liberia and the countless evil regimes that we didn't overthrow because they weren't economically viable.

So you are saying that unless someone comes to the aid of everyone, he may come to the aid of no one?

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061797 - 10/31/03 09:43 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Really? How much retaliating has Germany done in the last 58 years? Or Japan? How much retaliating has North Korea done in the last half century?



How much retaliation have the Palestinians done to Israel?

Quote:

Yeah, we do. Not only will they be better off ayear from now, they are already. We don't need a crystal ball to tell us that... we just need to read the news.



Ya, but what about the long term? Everybody knows what's going to happen next, but no one knows what's going to happen after that.

Quote:

Fundamentalist governments need not necessarily be worse for the citizens of a country than life under the Ba'athists was.



True, but they're often just as bad.

Quote:

I'm not even talking about the future. I'm talking about today.



So is it ok to invade a country if it will make the people temporarily better off?


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061826 - 10/31/03 09:53 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Really? How much retaliating has Germany done in the last 58 years? Or Japan? How much retaliating has North Korea done in the last half century?





That's a few exceptions. They're are dozens of other places that we have meddled in that are worse (Balkins).

Somebody gets knocked out of the race,someone else jumps in.

Remember when Berlin got cut in two by the Allies and the Ruskies? They were our best friends for a few months and a couple years later they were Satan himself.

Quote:

Yeah, we do. Not only will they be better off ayear from now, they are already. We don't need a crystal ball to tell us that... we just need to read the news.





It's highly variable in what part of the country it's in and who you ask. For every Iraqi that I've seen that was in favor of regime change,there is another that is not. Our bombing also knocked out a lot of infastructure and led to shortages of water,food,etc. Some of these problems have been fixed,some have certainly not.
Gee,they're so damn happy that they're launching RPG's at our tanks.

Quote:

Fundamentalist governments need not necessarily be worse for the citizens of a country than life under the Ba'athists was.




That was my point.YOU or anybody else doesn't know what will happen.

Quote:

I'm not even talking about the future. I'm talking about today.




Oh,screw the future. I've met heroin junkies with a better outlook than that.

Quote:

That the initiation of force in human affairs is forbidden, therefore those who initiate it may be stopped.




U.S.,kettle,black.

Quote:

See my comments re the greedy evil fucks who used to run Germany and Japan. Key phrase here being "used to".




They're still there,they just don't wear stars and cool uniforms and stuff anymore.

Quote:

The US had the right to aid the Iraqi people. They didn't have the obligation to.




They didn't have the right. There was no international approval. The U.N. was invented for a reason,maybe it would work if superpowers actually followed it.

There was no oil in Cammbodia though,so I guess we didn't have that right.

Quote:

So you are saying that unless someone comes to the aid of everyone, he may come to the aid of no one?




No,I'm saying that any halfway intelligent individual should see right through is philantropy crap for what it is.





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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2061884 - 10/31/03 10:56 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Silversoul7 writes:

How much retaliation have the Palestinians done to Israel?

Irrelevant. Monoamine's stance appears to be that it is never correct to defend one's self or others, because that is retaliation, and "retaliation just leads to more retaliation". My point was that it doesn't need to.

Ya, but what about the long term?

What about it? You can't seriously be suggesting the Iraqis would have been better off in the long term if the Ba'athists had been left in power, so what is it you are trying to say?

Everybody knows what's going to happen next, but no one knows what's going to happen after that.

Welcome to reality, little friend. It has been like that since the dawn of time.

True, but they're often just as bad.

As bad as Ba'athist Iraq? Nonsense. Not even the Taliban was as bad as that. Besides, if the majority of Iraqis decide they would be happier under a fundamentalist theocratic government than any other kind, and vote to install one, would you not be pleased that your precious "democratic will of the majority" triumphed? The point is, under the Ba'athists they had no chance to vote themselves anything but more Saddam Hussein. If they choose to live under a religious theocracy, everybody must submit -- even the minority, right?

So is it ok to invade a country if it will make the people temporarily better off?

Don't be obtuse. Any liberation, internal, external, or a combination of the two, has no guarantee of lasting forever -- see the American Revolution. Freedom must be worked at to be maintained. If the Iraqis choose to squander their freedom, so be it.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2061943 - 10/31/03 11:18 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

monoamine writes:

That's a few exceptions. They're are dozens of other places that we have meddled in...

Such as?

... that are worse (Balkins).

The Balkans have been fucked for over 600 years. It wasn't American "meddling" that screwed the Balkans. Are you saying that whatever is going on in the Balkans now (despite the presence of the oh-so-respected UN peacekeepers) is in retaliation to Clinton's bombing campaign? Nonsense. By the way, exactly what is the nature of the retaliation that is going on in the Balkans now? It's been a while since I heard of any ethnic cleansing going on there. Am I missing something?

Remember when Berlin got cut in two by the Allies and the Ruskies? They were our best friends for a few months and a couple years later they were Satan himself.

The Soviets were bad. The Fascists were worse. Stalin's conquering of Eastern Europe was not in retaliation to the Allied liberation of it.

For every Iraqi that I've seen that was in favor of regime change,there is another that is not.

Not according to the polls coming out of Iraq. It's not even close to a 50-50 split.

Our bombing also knocked out a lot of infastructure and led to shortages of water,food,etc.

Which bombing was that? The bombing in 1991? Twelve years was long enough to skim billions from the Iraqi people and build several dozen palaces but not long enough to repair a few miles of water pipe? Uh huh.

Oh,screw the future. I've met heroin junkies with a better outlook than that.

A deliberate misrepresentation of my words. I said I am not even talking of the future. To make it more plain, not only will things get better in the future, they are already better today. When I talk about the future, you sneer that I must have some kind of crystal ball, therefore I can be ignored. Yet when I speak of the present, you accuse me of ignoring the future. That's some real honest debating technique, dude. Heads you win, tails I lose.

They're still there,they just don't wear stars and cool uniforms and stuff anymore.

Clumsy dodge. Are they or are they not initiating violence against others anymore, regardless of their clothing? No, they are not. Who gives a damn if they might secretly wish they could -- the reality is they are not.

They didn't have the right.

Of course they did.

There was no international approval.

By whom? Have you read resolution 1441?

The U.N. was invented for a reason...

Yes it was. I suggest you read their charter and see if they have come anywhere close to living up to it in the case of Iraq -- or for that matter in the case of a few dozen other countries around the world since the UN was created.

No,I'm saying that any halfway intelligent individual should see right through is philantropy crap for what it is.

Who said anything about philanthropy? Did you read my answer to Baby_Hitler re: motivations vs actions? Do you think the Iraqi who was next headed for the wood chipper gives a damn whether his life was spared because the US felt sorry for him or because Bush wanted to make a political statement? Somehow I doubt it.

pinky


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2061955 - 10/31/03 11:22 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Monoamine's stance appears to be that it is never correct to defend one's self or others, because that is retaliation, and "retaliation just leads to more retaliation".




Perhaps you should reevaluate what you think my stance is. There is nothing wrong with defending oneself or others,but I don't think that's the case in this instance.

If their motivations for the war were so pure,they should have sold it on the liberating the people theme and worked with the U.N., instead of all the other malarky they pitched.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2062006 - 10/31/03 11:38 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

monoamine writes:

If their motivations for the war were so pure,they should have sold it on the liberating the people theme...

Re-read every single address Bush made on the subject, every single speech made at the UN on the subject by Powell and others, and every single one of the seventeen resilutions, then get back to us about how liberating the people was not "sold".

The fact is, most of the countries in the world couldn't give two shits about liberating others -- if it means a bomb might be dropped somewhere along the way.

... and worked with the U.N....

They tried that. France's promise to use their veto no matter what the outcome of the vote made that route useless.

...instead of all the other malarky they pitched.

See, here we have the standard dichotomy I have seen so many times in this forum. If Bush gives a whole list of reasons as to why Hussein should be deposed, he is accused of using a "scattergun" approach -- "Dude, make up your mind! Which is it?" But if he focuses more on one reason than the others, he is accused of being a "one-issue" idealogue who has no grasp of nuance.

There were always multiple reasons given for deposing Hussein. The media chose (for whatever reason) to focus almost exclusively on the WMD issue and ignore the other reasons. In my opinion, Bush would have done better emphasizing the humanitarian issue more strongly than he did, and let the media twist in the wind, but we all know Bush is not as good as Slick WIllie was at saying what people want to hear. But the fact that some of the reasons were more compelling than others doesn't change the fact that were multiple reasons why Hussein should be removed from power.

In my opinion, the humanitarian issue alone was good enough -- it certainly was in Kosovo and Liberia -- but not everyone agrees with me. Certainly the majority of the other countries in the world thought it better to leave Hussein in power indefinitely, humanitarian issues or no.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2062022 - 10/31/03 11:47 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

The rest of the world is a bunch of pussies.

WTF is up with them anyway? Why would they rather see a country exist under a totalitarian bloodbath regeime than do something about it? If "the world" came to another country's rescue, I'm sure they'd feel alot better about it than they would being liberated by dumb ol' America.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2062024 - 10/31/03 11:50 PM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah,the Balkins wasn't great example.My point is that we shouldn't meddle anywhere.If we want to help,we can send humanitarian aid,not soldiers and weapons. And if it comes down to brass tacks,any troops should be mulitnational.

Quote:

The Soviets were bad. The Fascists were worse. Stalin's conquering of Eastern Europe was not in retaliation to the Allied liberation of it.




I was referring specifically to '45 when Berlin was cut in half by the Allies and Soviets.Both danced in the streets together,and a couple years later were mortal enemies. This flip flop occured dozens of times by many countries in both wars.

I was using it as an example to show that this shit is like a big fucking game of Monopoly and Risk fueled by money and military prestige,only with millions of lives on the line.

Quote:

Not according to the polls coming out of Iraq. It's not even close to a 50-50 split.




What poles,conducted by whom and how exactly? Links?

We have an administration with a vested interest in keeping this war as positive looking as possible. Until I see a lot of indepedent, scientific studies and polls convincing me otherwise,I'll assume they didn't exactly welcome us with open arms.

Quote:

Which bombing was that? The bombing in 1991? Twelve years was long enough to skim billions from the Iraqi people and build several dozen palaces but not long enough to repair a few miles of water pipe? Uh huh.




I think you have in your head that I'm trying to defend Hussein. I am not. I perfectly aware of his atrocities.

A lot of schools and hospitals and not to mention many Iraqi's jobs and wages were rendered moot from the invasion.

Quote:

A deliberate misrepresentation of my words. I said I am not even talking of the future. To make it more plain, not only will things get better in the future, they are already better today. When I talk about the future, you sneer that I must have some kind of crystal ball, therefore I can be ignored. Yet when I speak of the present, you accuse me of ignoring the future. That's some real honest debating technique, dude. Heads you win, tails I lose.





The law of unintended consequences,my friend.

Even if things are better now or the near future (questionable),it may destabalize the region even more. Notice the influx of recent Jihadis?

Quote:

Do you think the Iraqi who was next headed for the wood chipper gives a damn whether his life was spared because the US felt sorry for him or because Bush wanted to make a political statement?




That's irrelevant to the worldwide consequences of this war.

Quote:

or because Bush wanted to make a political statement?




Honestly,I don't know. I think Bush and co. are megalomaniacs that wanted revenge for what daddy didn't finish in '91.

Again,if freeing the Iraqui people was thier main goal,why wasn't it there biggest selling point? (which it conviently became after the WMD thing was rendered horseshit)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2062201 - 11/01/03 01:46 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Why would they rather see a country exist under a totalitarian bloodbath regeime than do something about it?

I guess you should ask this of Reagan and Bush who were so close to Saddam during the 80's that it was dubbed "the love affair".

They only got concerned about the "totalitarian bloodbath regime" when he wouldn't follow their orders anymore.

BTW, Saudi Arabia's "totalitarian bloodbath regime" is still going strong with heavy US backing.


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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2062220 - 11/01/03 01:56 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

Good point Alex.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2062251 - 11/01/03 02:23 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

So if you don't want to do anything about it now, how can you sit back and complain that other people didn't do anything about it in the past? You would have had a point if we were talking about Bush and Regan, but as it stands at the moment all you did was spout pointless rhetoric.

For example: If I had said "Boy howdy Bush and Regan sure did a good job preventing atrocities in Iraq in the 1980's" and you came back with "Reagan and Bush were so close to Saddam during the 80's that it was dubbed "the love affair". "

You really would have had me there.

Instead I complain that not enough gets done, and nobody really seems interested in accomplishing anything. You then come back with "Not very much has been done in the past. BTW , I hate Regan and Bush"

Not a particularly effective counterpoint really.

If Someone were to ask Regan and Bush" that question what would be the answer? (Asuming the answer was truthfull)

Are you suggesting that the answer to that question would be the same as the answer to the question "Why would (the world) rather see a country exist under a totalitarian bloodbath regeime than do something about it? "

In other words, are you suggesting that "The World" has the same motivations for opposing the war that America had for supporting Iraq (with Saddam as it's leader) during that period of history?


I would like to know more about the goings on in Saudi Arabia, actually. If you have any links to information about recent atrocities commited by the current regeime in that country I would be interested in reviewing them.


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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: monoamine]
    #2062262 - 11/01/03 02:29 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

If their motivations for the war were so pure,they should have sold it on the liberating the people theme and worked with the U.N., instead of all the other malarky they pitched.

The only way a blatant war of aggression could be waged and have the faintest semblance of legality would be if the country posed a direct and immediate threat. The myth of WMD was created solely for that purpose. The codshit about "we will bring you freedom" was just there for the right-wingers to spoon up - it was a joke.

The legality of the war rests on the existence of WMD, and even then it's highly questionable.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2062268 - 11/01/03 02:35 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

It's all about looking at history and learning lessons from it. I guess you're too young to remember much about Reagan and Bush but they had their wars to bring "freedom" and "liberation" too - that's what supporting nightmarish terrorists like the contras was sold as. That's what supporting Bin Laden and the fundamentalists in Afghanistan was sold as. You eventually learn it's often best not to take someone saying "We're waging war for freedom and liberty" at face value.

It's the same story, don't let yourself be conned.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2062280 - 11/01/03 02:43 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

I don't take it at face value, I just think that what we have done is more likely to make the situation better than it is to make it worse. As it was the situation wasn't going to get any better.

Now it has a real chance. I just hope people don't start whining about how much money it's costing us and drop the ball, and let Iraq slip back into another tyranical regime.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Phred]
    #2062292 - 11/01/03 03:04 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

No offense Mark (I really do mean that,I respect you),but your analogies of very small term events and wars are just stupid.

No offense, mono, but those who are unable to grasp fundamental principles are at a disadvantage. Either it is ethical to lend a hand to someone unable to defend himself from a stronger aggressor or it isn't. Whether it is a single woman being mugged or a continent being overrun or a single country held in thrall by a murderous madman, the fundamental principle remains the same. It is just a matter of scale.


but the fundamental principle is not the same in those situations. it is not just a matter of "scale". when an individual defends another from an agressor, he is retaliating only against the agressor. but when we bomb Iraq to save the Iraqis, we are not only "retaliating" against Saddam and his thugs, we are also knowingly killing innocent civilians in the process. this is the key difference that seems to have escaped you.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Is Anyone Actually Still In Favor Of the War? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2062296 - 11/01/03 03:09 AM (20 years, 2 months ago)

so are you saying that no matter what they did to get it done, as long as everything turns out well in the end, it was justified?

even if they had to lie to the American people, even if they killed thousands of innocent civilians? motivations and methods do not matter as long as things are "better off" in the end?

let me ask a simple question:

do the ends justify the means?



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