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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #822400 - 08/17/02 12:07 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Pinky, even I have to admit that was an excellent and well spoken arguement. Although I have to say you haven't changed my opinion of Chomsky, nor could I say anything to change your view on him. So we agree that he's intelligent and leave it at that.

Personally, I don't care if some of what he says is "exagerated"...he makes you think, and if even a little bit of what he says makes you question the governement, and make it accountable for it's own actions, then it's a start....I'm sure even you have to admit the U.S. government is pulling some really scary shit lately and the entire world is watching...and feeling the tension.

It's not a big secret to anyone here that I'm not a huge fan of the U.S. government, and yes I'm Canadian so perhaps that gives me a different perspective on the world as you see it...anyways, I'm drunk, I'm tired and I say good day to you sir!...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,282
Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phluck]
    #824295 - 08/17/02 07:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I've read as much Chomsky as I can stand. I even have a 7" record of the hateful old bastard.

I'll defer to him on matters linguistic. Most other topics show him to embrace anything, however blatantly insane, that makes western civ and capitalism a scapegoat.


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Offlinemr freedom
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Rono]
    #824513 - 08/17/02 08:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Rono, if you want an author that makes sense, makes you think and doesn't lie then try this one:

http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/books/aint/

Peter McWilliams.

I would suggest that everyone read this book, it's free online.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: wingnutx]
    #827385 - 08/19/02 07:18 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

good post...i agree


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: mr freedom]
    #827398 - 08/19/02 07:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I went to the link, but all I found was cute little "annecdotes" that didn't challenge me to think at all...did I miss something or is there another link? I am not dis-crediting Peter McWilliams, but from what I've seen all he does is state the obvious...Personally I prefer something with a little more "substance".


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #944312 - 10/09/02 01:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The more Chomsky one reads, the more apparent it is that he has nothing but contempt and hatred for anything even remotely connected with capitalism, and especially the US. when he finds even these tactics insufficient, he just makes things up. To be blunt, he lies.


The thing about Chomsky is he uses the writings and speeches of the capitalists themselves. Precisely to destroy the idea that he is biased. That's why his books have such extensive footnotes. Deterring Democracy for example has almost nothing of Chomsky's opinion in it, it is pure documented quoted evidence from corporate leaders themselves. I find it hard to believe you have ever read Chomsky if you havn't noticed this.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Xlea321]
    #944454 - 10/09/02 04:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

The thing about Chomsky is he uses the writings and speeches of the capitalists themselves.

1) Few if any of the people he quotes are capitalists. They are professional politicians or bureaucrats in a country that is, at best, a mixed economy welfare state. Chomsky is quite adept at setting up and demolishing straw dogs.

2) Many of the quotes he provides are from very low-level apparatchiks with no power to decide policy. They represent personal opinion rather than government policy.

3) Many of the quotes are cherry-picked and taken out of context. When one reads the entire document referred to, this becomes obvious.

That's why his books have such extensive footnotes.

1) There is a credible argument to be made that the reason he has so many footnotes is to discourage checking each and every one.

2) When one DOES attempt to check each and every footnote, one finds that some of the "sources" don't actually exist. This has been pointed out by almost every critic of Chomsky. Noam seems to be able to dig up stuff that no one else can find.

Deterring Democracy for example has almost nothing of Chomsky's opinion in it, it is pure documented quoted evidence from corporate leaders themselves.

That is Chomsky's method, and no one is better at it than he is. He doesn't have the intellectual honesty to actually state his own opinions, because from past debates with critics he has learned how easily his positions can be refuted. Instead he uses his (admittedly proficient) linguistic legerdemain to insinuate, twist, slant, distort, misrepresent, and attribute to other supposedly neutral "authorities" the ideas he wishes to get across. That way, whenever he is challenged, he can backpedal and say, "No, I never said that at all. You are misunderstanding my position".

I find it hard to believe you have ever read Chomsky if you havn't noticed this.

Alex, I am getting pretty damn tired of you insinuating I am a liar. I've read fucking Chomsky. Once YOU have read ENOUGH Chomsky you will notice the same things about his writings that I have pointed out.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #944512 - 10/09/02 05:57 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Many of the quotes he provides are from very low-level apparatchiks with no power to decide policy. They represent personal opinion rather than government policy.

I just flipped open a Chomsky book - there were qoutes from Macnamara, Madelaine Allbright, Nixon, Bush and Clinton on the random page it opened to. Your argument doesn't hold water.

There is a credible argument to be made that the reason he has so many footnotes is to discourage checking each and every one.

Are you serious? This is right-wing paranoia taken to extremes. The man goes to the effort of footnoting his work precisely so people CAN read the sources.

This has been pointed out by almost every critic of Chomsky.

Yes I'm sure lots of right-wingers think he's a very unpleasant man. The fact is you can't deny the footnotes or the evidence. And if you can find a footnote that "didn't exist" then please provide the evidence. I've heard enough right-wing propaganda to know bullshit when i hear it.



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OfflinePhred
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Xlea321]
    #944562 - 10/09/02 06:22 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I just flipped open a Chomsky book - there were qoutes from Macnamara, Madelaine Allbright, Nixon, Bush and Clinton on the random page it opened to. Your argument doesn't hold water.

1) Reading comprehension skills are important. I didn't say all -- I said many. I can believe that on any given page opened at random there were quotes only from high-level politicians. Is this the case of every page in the book?

2) Madelaine Allbright, Richard Nixon, and Bill Clinton all fit my description of politicians and bureaucrats dedicated to the mixed economy welfare state model of government. None of them are proponents of capitalism.

The man goes to the effort of footnoting his work precisely so people CAN read the sources.

Not all of his "sources" in his earlier works can be found... not on the net, not anywhere. In later works he restricted this practice, because he had been caught at it by people such as Alan Dershowitz, James Donald, Brian Carnell, David Horowitz, and others. What is the copyright date for the book you flipped open?

And if you can find a footnote that "didn't exist" then please provide the evidence.

I have never bought one of his books, so I don't have one to scrutinize for the bogus footnotes. All of his books I have read so far were either borrowed from friends or from a library. At the moment I have none in my possession.

Chomsky gambles that no one will bother to verify EVERY reference he lists. This gamble doesn't always pay off, though. He has been caught MANY times. Naturally, MOST of the sources that he notes do in fact exist (although he is extremely selective at what he quotes from those sources); if they were ALL bogus there would be no point.

I've heard enough right-wing propaganda to know bullshit when i hear it.

You have heard none from me. I am not a right winger.

pinky



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #944893 - 10/09/02 09:16 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Chomsky gambles that no one will bother to verify EVERY reference he lists.

Look man, just draw breath for a moment and listen to yourself. Forget what you heard some right-winger with his own agenda said about Chomsky and think about what you're saying. You are saying that Noam Chomsky, one of the most distuingished academics of the 20th century, a man who'se work is scrutinised to the nth degree by right-wingers, is going to sit there and say "I know, I'll make up a quote and then make up a footnote, I bet no-one will notice". Do you really believe that? Just pause and THINK about it for a moment before you respond.

Rush Limbaugh might get away with making up footnotes but Noam Chomsky certainly isn't. Chomsky is one of the hate figures of the establishment and right-wing and they will do anything they can to discredit him.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Xlea321]
    #945311 - 10/09/02 12:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You are saying that Noam Chomsky, one of the most distuingished academics of the 20th century, a man who'se work is scrutinised to the nth degree by right-wingers, is going to sit there and say "I know, I'll make up a quote and then make up a footnote, I bet no-one will notice".

Yes, that's what I am saying, because that's what he has done. And, he's been caught at it -- more than once, by more than one critic. He is indeed a noted academic, but he's been noted for two different things:

1) His seminal work in the field of linguistics, notably the theory of "innatism".

2) His virulent hatred of the United States and, to a lesser extent, all "Western" countries.

Chomsky is one of the hate figures of the establishment and right-wing and they will do anything they can to discredit him.

He makes it easy for them. The thing is -- as I said in an earlier reply of mine in this thread -- many of the dubious exploits of various US government figures he points out are indeed verifiable, and require no embroidery in order to persuade an objective reader to condemn them. But by taking things over the top, he destroys his own credibility.

I am no fan of many past actions and policies of US government, nor of George W. Bush. But I believe in criticizing what they actually DID. Goodness knows that leaves plenty to criticize.

Rush Limbaugh is an ass. So is Noam Chomsky.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #945557 - 10/09/02 01:55 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

And, he's been caught at it -- more than once, by more than one critic. He is indeed a noted academic

You got any evidence for this? The idea of Chomsky getting "caught" doing anything is laughable. I think you may be confusing right-wingers misinformation with reality.

His virulent hatred of the United States and, to a lesser extent, all "Western" countries.

Nah the only thing Chomsky hates is injustice. And to say he hates the united states sounds like typical Dubya misinformation - like anyone who isn't for the "war on terror" hates america too.

and require no embroidery

There is no embrodiery. It's all there in the footnotes. Go back and read Deterring Democracy or see the film "Manufacturing Consent".


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Noam Chomsky on the Drug War [Re: Phred]
    #945916 - 10/09/02 04:01 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Here's a recent (Sept. 9) article from Chomsky. Anyone care to identify all of the "lies" contained therein?

Drain the Swamp and There Will Be No More Mosquitoes
By attacking Iraq, the US will invite a new wave of terrorist attacks

by Noam Chomsky

September 11 shocked many Americans into an awareness that they had better pay much closer attention to what the US government does in the world and how it is perceived. Many issues have been opened for discussion that were not on the agenda before. That's all to the good.

It is also the merest sanity, if we hope to reduce the likelihood of future atrocities. It may be comforting to pretend that our enemies "hate our freedoms," as President Bush stated, but it is hardly wise to ignore the real world, which conveys different lessons.

The president is not the first to ask: "Why do they hate us?" In a staff discussion 44 years ago, President Eisenhower described "the campaign of hatred against us [in the Arab world], not by the governments but by the people". His National Security Council outlined the basic reasons: the US supports corrupt and oppressive governments and is "opposing political or economic progress" because of its interest in controlling the oil resources of the region.

Post-September 11 surveys in the Arab world reveal that the same reasons hold today, compounded with resentment over specific policies. Strikingly, that is even true of privileged, western-oriented sectors in the region.

To cite just one recent example: in the August 1 issue of Far Eastern Economic Review, the internationally recognized regional specialist Ahmed Rashid writes that in Pakistan "there is growing anger that US support is allowing [Musharraf's] military regime to delay the promise of democracy".

Today we do ourselves few favors by choosing to believe that "they hate us" and "hate our freedoms". On the contrary, these are attitudes of people who like Americans and admire much about the US, including its freedoms. What they hate is official policies that deny them the freedoms to which they too aspire.

For such reasons, the post-September 11 rantings of Osama bin Laden - for example, about US support for corrupt and brutal regimes, or about the US "invasion" of Saudi Arabia - have a certain resonance, even among those who despise and fear him. From resentment, anger and frustration, terrorist bands hope to draw support and recruits.

We should also be aware that much of the world regards Washington as a terrorist regime. In recent years, the US has taken or backed actions in Colombia, Nicaragua, Panama, Sudan and Turkey, to name a few, that meet official US definitions of "terrorism" - that is, when Americans apply the term to enemies.

In the most sober establishment journal, Foreign Affairs, Samuel Huntington wrote in 1999: "While the US regularly denounces various countries as 'rogue states,' in the eyes of many countries it is becoming the rogue superpower ... the single greatest external threat to their societies."

Such perceptions are not changed by the fact that, on September 11, for the first time, a western country was subjected on home soil to a horrendous terrorist attack of a kind all too familiar to victims of western power. The attack goes far beyond what's sometimes called the "retail terror" of the IRA, FLN or Red Brigades.

The September 11 terrorism elicited harsh condemnation throughout the world and an outpouring of sympathy for the innocent victims. But with qualifications.

An international Gallup poll in late September found little support for "a military attack" by the US in Afghanistan. In Latin America, the region with the most experience of US intervention, support ranged from 2% in Mexico to 16% in Panama.

The current "campaign of hatred" in the Arab world is, of course, also fueled by US policies toward Israel-Palestine and Iraq. The US has provided the crucial support for Israel's harsh military occupation, now in its 35th year.

One way for the US to lessen Israeli-Palestinian tensions would be to stop refusing to join the long-standing international consensus that calls for recognition of the right of all states in the region to live in peace and security, including a Palestinian state in the currently occupied territories (perhaps with minor and mutual border adjustments).

In Iraq, a decade of harsh sanctions under US pressure has strengthened Saddam Hussein while leading to the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis - perhaps more people "than have been slain by all so-called weapons of mass destruction throughout history", military analysts John and Karl Mueller wrote in Foreign Affairs in 1999.

Washington's present justifications to attack Iraq have far less credibility than when President Bush Sr was welcoming Saddam as an ally and a trading partner after he had committed his worst brutalities - as in Halabja, where Iraq attacked Kurds with poison gas in 1988. At the time, the murderer Saddam was more dangerous than he is today.

As for a US attack against Iraq, no one, including Donald Rumsfeld, can realistically guess the possible costs and consequences. Radical Islamist extremists surely hope that an attack on Iraq will kill many people and destroy much of the country, providing recruits for terrorist actions.

They presumably also welcome the "Bush doctrine" that proclaims the right of attack against potential threats, which are virtually limitless. The president has announced: "There's no telling how many wars it will take to secure freedom in the homeland." That's true.

Threats are everywhere, even at home. The prescription for endless war poses a far greater danger to Americans than perceived enemies do, for reasons the terrorist organizations understand very well.

Twenty years ago, the former head of Israeli military intelligence, Yehoshaphat Harkabi, also a leading Arabist, made a point that still holds true. "To offer an honorable solution to the Palestinians respecting their right to self-determination: that is the solution of the problem of terrorism," he said. "When the swamp disappears, there will be no more mosquitoes."

At the time, Israel enjoyed the virtual immunity from retaliation within the occupied territories that lasted until very recently. But Harkabi's warning was apt, and the lesson applies more generally.

Well before September 11 it was understood that with modern technology, the rich and powerful will lose their near monopoly of the means of violence and can expect to suffer atrocities on home soil.

If we insist on creating more swamps, there will be more mosquitoes, with awesome capacity for destruction.

If we devote our resources to draining the swamps, addressing the roots of the "campaigns of hatred", we can not only reduce the threats we face but also live up to ideals that we profess and that are not beyond reach if we choose to take them seriously.




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