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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1406482 -

Markos, how do you believe the authors of the Tibetan Book of the Dead came by this knowledge? Drugs, meditation, fasting? I have met many people deeply involved in one or more of those practices and saw no evidence of supernatural knowledge. Why does this mystical knowledge only seem to come from long,long ago? Is it so that we cannot trace the root nor question the authors directly? Where are the great masters of today?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1407761 -

The best way I have found to "prove" that consciousness continues after physical death is that this idea just feels RIGHT. From the beggining, man has sought for ideals and truths in this lifetime that are directly influenced by what he believes will happen after death.

Continuation of life after death just seems like one of the universal truths that we are free to use as a given in our assessment of this reality.

Of course, I may be wrong, or there may be no "wrong" at all. The only thing we know for sure is that the engine of reality and experience continues to move forward no matter what we think or believe. Peace.


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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1407905 -

Swami: Where are the great masters of today?

Swami.... you know where they are.
You see, there is a proper protocol for masters...

*There is the few hundred year post-mortem waiting period
*Your now very old books or writings must then be discovered in a cave (or something similar) somewhere (if the location corresponds with "sacred" geometry... that's bonus)
*Lots of analogies and metaphors so the masses have some weird shit to take literally... ["To be great, is to be misunderstood" for sure... but the masses often get mixed up and assumed that misunderstanding can lead to greatness... lucky for you.]
*A small group of followers "from the beginning" (aka secret society) can help ensure that people worship you "correctly". This is harder to pull off as you will be dead and will have no control over this small group of disciples. So it's not required, but it's a nice touch.
*Lots of vague or at least ambiguous statements that can be read as prophecies. People like prophecies... prophecies promise them something that will justify their faith. This is because most "faith" isn't real... it's just a strong hope that what you believe is correct... so a future proof (aka prophecy) is a key ingredient.


Maybe I should write a FAQ....


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1408903 -

I'll go out on a limb [*creak*], for you, because of the tone of your question, and answer from my personal life. ["Sherman, set the Wayback Machine to 1973." Sure thing Mr. Peabody!"] I began reading all the occult literature on astral projection, and began experimenting by going into sleep at odd times of the day. Lo and behold, one day about 4:00 PM, I felt that 'falling sensation' that one sometimes gets on the brink of sleep, but usually just feels like you've dropped a few inches. THIS time it was a great big rush, and I experienced 'myself' on the other side of the window, about a dozen feet off the ground, looking at my street and houses. Everything was sort of shimmering in a silvery hue, edges shifting off their planes, when it suddenly dawned on me that I was in two places at the same time! I 'looked' down at where my torso and legs should be, but saw no body. FEAR! and with that jolt of fear, I felt another rush, and a tremendous sense of falling, a convulsive rush in my navel area and I jacknifed up from bed into a sitting position.

After that rather convincing OOBE, I became convinced of the truth that consciousness can operate independently of the 'physical sheath,' in a still limited manner (not omniscience) by 'shifting' perspective to an 'astral sheath,' (stula sarira) to use the classic Yoga model of increasingly subtle bodies. I didn't know about the Yoga model at that time, but I did read a lot afterwards, and the sensations and perceptions and general phenomenology of the event convinced me that it was neither imagination, nor hallucination, nor lucid dream.

The Hindu Yoga gave rise to the Six Yogas of Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps the whole trip only operates as described in that strange corner of space-time. Perhaps the phenomenon of the Bardos is not a universal phenomenon, or perhaps our subjective models literally create 'objective' reality. I think from a microphysical understanding of nature, there is no such thing as objective reality. The observer is always part of the observed. Perhaps this is equally true of more subtle dimensions of reality - dimensions of consciousness. I don't have the answers, but I like to collect speculations and consider them for their possibilities of being True - how it Really is.

I did not fast, meditate or use drugs for that once-in-a-lifetime OOBE, but all of those methods have been tried. On another occasion, while lying on my bedroom floor, head to the south, while imagining a bright sun in my head, which became a clear 100W lightbulb for a moment - my head became filled with yellow-white light, which spread to my entire body, along with a loud humming sound. I felt ecstatic and could feel a broad smile stretching across my face - the only particular surface sensation on my bliss-permeated body. Only one thought occurred - "move" - and I felt complete bodily paralysis. I suppose, like the OOBE, a fear response (first chakra in astral body) occurred, and that state faded immediately. No drugs that time either. Only later did I read about the phenomenology of Nirvikalpa Samadhi - the sabad, or inner sound, the light, the rigidity, etc.

Two isolated experiences, 30 years ago, does not make me a Master, but it taught me enough to pay attention to such writings. When Gopi Krishna had his Kundalini experiences, he didn't quite know what they were either, even though he'd been meditating for decades. Modern writings under scientific paradigms did not resonate as well with my experiences as the ancient writings did, untouched by modern thought. There you have it [*creak*].



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1409055 -

Lucid dreams and oobes are playgrounds for people trying to justify spiritual beliefs becuase they are potent grounds for interesting experiences. But is there an valid argument saying that this could not be created by my brain? I think it might be possible for my brain to create such realities (for whatever it's worth).

Are these perceptions coming from another place that is seperate from me as we might define our physical consensus reality as seperate? There is no clear answer to this. I myself would not jump to conclusions and say that it is seperate.



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focusing
Flow
The Enneagram

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: David_Scape]
    #1409166 -

Markos, thank you for sharing that.


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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1409871 -

There's also no proof that life after death does not exist.

Please study basic logical argument so as not to make yourself look foolish.

I like that.  :laugh:

That's probably in reference to the "you cannot prove a negative" - myth (where did that come from, anyway?). But you can prove a negative, and, what's even worse, positive and negative statements are fully equivalent. You can easily turn every positive statement into a negative statement. If you argue that one cannot prove a negative statement, it follows that one cannot prove a positive statement either, since doing so would prove a negative statement (the negation of the negation of the positive statement). FOR EXAMPLE, it is easy to prove that there can be no all-powerful personal God, since he would have to be able to create a rock which he cannot carry, i.e. the concept is self-contradicting.

There's also no proof that life after death does not exist.

Try again, Swami.
 

Edited by Nomad (03/25/03 07:28 PM)

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: David_Scape] * 1
    #1410112 -

I never jumped to any conclusion. The experiences, along with other classically mystical (as opposed to merely psychic experiences that I mentioned) experiences, propelled me through three universities, and degrees in philosophy, theology and psychology. I left pre-med to pursue these avenues. I am 20 years past receiving my Ph.D., and have had 30 years to analyze my experiences. This is not jumping to conclusions. Mind is not a mere product of neural functioning. Consciousness underlies Existence. The old fashioned word for consciousness was Spirit, catch my drift?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: chunder]
    #1410121 -

Thanks for your thanks.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1410139 -

I've never really bought into materialism, but it's the old 'what if'. What makes you so sure that your mind exists seperate from your brain? I mean, its kind of sick for a finite being to be able to contemplate eternity, perfection, and so on, but never have the slightest chance of attaining them. I think we are more than this body, but I would like to come to this conclusion through observation. Right now it is just a intuited huntch, backed up by other people's writings.

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: LoverofEarth]
    #1410178 -

Life after death is based on the assumption that there's someone there - You!
Can anyone tell me what is it that is going to live on?
Is the thing that's going to live on actually there?

Stimulus - response Stimulus - response

Stimulus - response Stimulus - response

Stimulus - response Stimulus - response

Stimulus - response

Stimulus - response

No thinker, just thoughts.


Edited by Kaneda (03/26/03 04:18 AM)

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1410339 -

Mind is not a mere product of neural functioning.

Markos, I respect your long and thoughtful search and do not doubt your experiences. However, my equally long search does not lead me to the same conclusion.

You have known me here long enough to understand that I need to be shown. (You can easily guess which apostle that I am named after. :smile:) As I have asked before, if astral travel is not merely an internal state as you postulate, but indicative of mind separate from the body, then why is it seemingly impossible to corroborate? (Please do not insert another anecdote here.)   


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1411157 -

Seems like the post, continued in a pretty cool maner. Does anyone else have any input on my "theory"? :laugh:


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I see trees of green, psylocibe mushrooms too
I see them bloom for me and you
And I think to myself what a wonderful world

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1411343 -

******If there were contact with another mind then there would be consensus as to the message that was being transmitted. There isn't. The best we can do is to take a large dose of psilocybin and deceive ourselves that we are in touch with another mind, when in reality, it is our own.*******

Ever consider the possibility that we are all one mind? The "other" that we seek is merely a component of the of the vast oversoul of the universe, a concept that is too large to comprehend (thus the reason for belief in an "other," the other that is really us looking for ourself, the cycle expands and collapses, expands and collapses, we discover ourself and then rediscover ourself, manifestizing our self as another entity and thus rationalizing the concept into an understanding, albeit a quirky and far fetched one)? And who's to say that this "other mind" has a message? After all, being an aspect of ourself, surely we already understand the underlying implications that are earnest in the eyes of the other, thus there is little reason to give conscious thought to whatever these ideas may be. Yearning? Yearnation? Yearnability. I, too, yearn...
The universe is some kind of beast with bugs and fleas and a foul effluvium. The universe scratches at the fleas and bites the bugs. The universe has beautiful eyes. One day, in a fit of confusion and sheepishness, the universe will eat its self.
And we're here to enjoy the ride? Or give direction? Live on and embody the beauty? Hmmm... Life after death... Who's to say that this is not death.... I think I like it....

Edited by Alobar (03/26/03 10:42 AM)

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1411364 -

i've come to the point in my life where i dont give a shit

i mean if i die and there is no more .... i cease to exist, bah. i wont be there to feel anything about not excisting

if a die and i'm reborn as something ... then i'll forget the past life and start all over

if i die and god's tells me "why didn't you believe in me" ... i'll tell him "you should have made me a bit more nieve so that i could have believed in the bullshit in your book you inspired ... i gave you more credit then that!"

so till the day i die .... peace



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Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig



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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1411493 -

But there have been published corroborations of near-death OOBE's in hospitals, for example, while the calm and inquisitive observing ego, astrally embodied, watched hospital staff frantically trying to resusitate his physical body from somewhere above the drama. Then, 'willing' himself to move to the nurse's station to read an open page in someone's chart being read by some nurse - all of which was corroborated later after the resusitation/re-integration of astral and physical, had occurred. There are numerous published accounts of these kinds of events.

For you to acknowledge the truth of such phenomenon, you may have to employ the faculty of trust in other human beings. Someday, that trust might develop into full-blown faith in the words of someone you have come to trust. Someday, your own perceptions may become untrustworthy, and you will have to rely of the perceptions of others. "You have seen and believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed." +++Be thou so blessed+++


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Kemist]
    #1411498 -

Yes, that is definately a position one can take. However, I doubt that it will keep you satisfied for very long into life.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1411502 -

Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to check without losing the ability to express the results to living humans.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1411547 -

Swami asks Markos politely: (Please do not insert another anecdote here.)
Naturally a generalized anecdote follows.

There are numerous published accounts of these kinds of events.
Yes, I have read many of these stories with many possible explanations, but NOT ONE under controlled circumstance to rule out these possibilities. No one on this board, even the hard-core astrallers, could identify the mystery object in my house.

For you to acknowledge the truth of such phenomenon, you may have to employ the faculty of trust in other human beings.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Everywhere you turn there is fraud, misperception and ignorance. I wonder what fairyland you live in. The government lies to us, our bosses lie to us, advertisers lie to us, investors have been defrauded of trillions of dollars and now we are in a war brought about by lies; yet I should learn to trust.

Ever been robbed or beaten? Show some real trust and walk alone and unarmed while wearing a nice suit in the worst part of your town at about 2AM on Saturday.

Someday, that trust might develop into full-blown faith in the words of someone you have come to trust.
I totally believed in the words of a Christian woman I loved beyond words and would have lain my life down for and still carry deep emotional wounds from that complete trust. Trust = vulnerability.

"You have seen and believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed."
This is such a useless guideline for life. There are infinite unseen things and out of those we are supposed to know which ones to believe in? Or just the ones that we are told to believe in?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: chunder]
    #1411566 -

The best way I have found to "prove" that consciousness continues after physical death is that this idea just feels RIGHT.
Feelings are frequently in error.

Continuation of life after death just seems like one of the universal truths that we are free to use as a given in our assessment of this reality.
And where do I locate the source of this seeming "universal truth"?



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The proof is in the pudding.

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