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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1418220 -

Quote:

I think that your reframing of my words is so warped,

How so? Show me my error and I will recant. Personalizing usually tells me that the poster cannot make a case for their point. 



It doesn't matter to me whether either of you see the other's viewpoint.

What I am concerned about is the personalizing, by each of you.  You know when you are "digging" and when you are not.  Subtlety isn't much of a veil over these old eyes of mine.

Each of you need to tone down the personalizing or I will lock the thread.  No need to incite passions.  Just use reason and all should be fine (with reasonable people, that is :wink: )

Cheers,

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1419353 -

Does it matter if one believes in life after death as a truth, yet turns out to be fallacy? If there is no life after death, the believer would not have the possibility of his beliefs dismissed; while the non-believer could have a rude awakening.


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AH HA....

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Swami]
    #1419354 -

Does it matter if one believes in life after death as a truth, yet turns out to be fallacy? If there is no life after death, the believer would not have the possibility of his beliefs dismissed; while if the opposite: the non-believer could have a rude awakening.


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AH HA....

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: ]
    #1420649 -

Foowee ! I'm taking my personality and going home. I'm not gonna play with you guys anymore.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1420661 -

Awwww, come on back! While I enjoy bantering with you, I also appreciate your well-written posts.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Cherk]
    #1428863 -

Quote:

There's much more to the mind that just the brain. If it was that simple, we'd all have the same personalities and think the same.




This is simplistic. Even identical twins are born with macroscopic differences in their bodies since not all things are a function of genetics. Their fingerprints, for example, are a function of their local environment when they're developing inutero.

Further, brains establish neuron connections in part as a result of external stimuli so even two exactly identical brains would quickly diverge as each experienced its own version of external reality.

Although the bottom line is that nobody knows if consciousness survives the death of the body, not a single scientifically valid observation has ever provided even the slightest evidence that this is so.

-Diploid


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: chunder]
    #1428912 -

Quote:

People write books about how stars work, mineral composition on Mars, atmospheric conditions on Neptune, etc. None of these people have been to any of these places, but it doesn't mean they can't study them.




All of these books provide independently verifiable facts, many of which are verified from disparate points of view and scientific disciplines. Not so for mysticism. All mystics offer is their word.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Diploid]
    #1429006 -

Not that I much want to get involved in this debate, but the definition of the scientific method is just what Diploid said: the experiment can be verified by a community of the adequate. The mystical experience has been validated countless times by people from all cultures and religious backgrounds. Meditators throughout history report similar insights. There are literally thousands of experiences that have been related to us by some of our most profound thinkers, and there are uncanny similarities between all of these experiences. In fact, one can distill a core set of truths from just about every mystical religion and these truths are, for all intents and purposes, universal. This, to me, indicates that something does indeed lie behind the human experience, and that we each have the potential of accessing it if we too take part in the Experiment.

I am not talking about life after death here, btw; I personally believe that this is a metaphor, similar to reincarnation, and is only taken literally by those who have been brainwashed by dogma. But that is just the skeptic in me talking; I am more than open to being proven wrong...

Edited by sunyata (04/04/03 02:08 PM)

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1429035 -

until we had language did our "mind" exist? if we can't talk to ourselves, only acting off instincts and repetitive behavior, with no internal commentary on what's going on, would that make us an animal? if so, do primitive animals have minds? (i say primitive because the brains of some animals like apes and dolphins are developed enough that they very well could have a sense of concience- or a "mind" if you will)

in my opinion we didn't. our speech centers hadnt evolved enough yet, nor our adams apple dropping to allow for sounds other then simple grunts.. and to me this is pretty conclusive that what we define as our "minds" didn't exist, they are only a product of our brain. we've evolved and adapted our brains to be able to have that internal dialogue that we all so often hear.

does this in turn mean we don't have souls? would you define your soul as also having your mind? if we were once animal like in our no-minded instinctual ways did we have a soul then too if we didn't have a mind? is the soul eternal or a product of language's amazing affects on the brain? if it is eternal, does that mean animals must in turn have souls too?

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: popdewman]
    #1429060 -

Quote:

Does it matter if one believes in life after death as a truth, yet turns out to be fallacy? If there is no life after death, the believer would not have the possibility of his beliefs dismissed; while if the opposite: the non-believer could have a rude awakening.



What about the believer who finds out that there is life after death, but they were wrong about the conditions for achieving it? Wouldn't they be in for the greatest shock of all?


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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: popdewman]
    #1429142 -

Language... A complicated concept. And still this thread intrigues me...
Popdewman, it appears (and I mean no offense by this...) that perhaps you are confusing Language with Speech, a more prescriptive sense of the concept as opposed to the rhetorical "language is for communication" mode of thinking. English teachers love to fall back on the prescriptive rules (proper grammar, language as a basis for thought, etc...). However, being that our grasp on language in general is inadequate (be it written or spoken) to impart "perfect" thought, it seems unlikely that thought is dependant on language. Rather, it is vice-versa, which leads me to believe that of course there existed a mind prior to language. And "lesser" species surely have minds as well, though they are not the interpreters of the universe as we are.
Perhaps soon we will have our "Tower of Babel"

That being said, allow me to chime in with another thought on the main topic of discussion: Surely some people here have experienced a total loss of self under the influence of psychedelics? Is this not a death-like state? If this is so, does it not make sense that there is no sense of self post-mortem? This does not debunk the idea of life after death, but it does force one to realize that this sense of self, which is merely a nexus point between the past and the future at any given moment, cannot be retained indefinately. Die and let go... Do a belly-flop into the great Soul soup and splash around in eternity... Perhaps your soul will mix with my soul and a billion other soul vapors and come out as some ungodly abberation in time unknown...

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: Alobar]
    #1429175 -

that's an interesting thought alobar.. i'll have to think on that a bit

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Re: Explaining why life after death exists [Re: sunyata]
    #1431312 -

Quote:

In fact, one can distill a core set of truths from just about every mystical religion and these truths are, for all intents and purposes, universal.



What have you found these truths to be?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

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