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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace.
    #879970 - 09/12/02 07:47 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

I do not post topics very often, but today I felt motivated to do so. The name of the post was at the top of an e mail that someone sent me, and I took it as one of those synchronicities that occur in everyday life that I consider to be 'manna from heaven,' food for the spirit, or minor miracles.

I find it quite sad that individuals who very likely have taken moderate to large doses of psychedelics have not been 'given' the occasion to "discorporate," to use the term from the Frank Zappa song ("...it means to leave the body.") What I frequently encounter are dyed-in-the-wool materialists who have probably not accepted (which is a matter of faith) a mind-set, a model, that allows for the disengagement of mind from body, and a more complete identification with spirit. In other words, the basic model from Plato to Paul to Huxley to Alex Grey, is lacking among those who rant and rave against 'religion.'

Two clarifications are in order: Firstly, by leaving the body, I don't mean an astral projection. That is still 'in the body,' just a more subtle body. I mean something far more profound - the realization that who and what we essentially are is Consciousness - referred to back in the day as spirit. Consciousness, at its deepest level is characterized by timelessness and intensity, while at the shallower levels there is movement, change, and extension in space (our mind-body). Consciousness is not a thing or a substance, so the idea of boundaries does not apply. The mind-body has boundaries defined by the ego (MY thoughts, MY body). If a person can't grasp this, there is no sense pursuing this line of reasoning any further. Such a person can't experience him/herself as Consciousness (spirit); and perhaps this inability creates the frustration and anger that lies and denies that it is possible.

The second point for clarification, is what Huxley himself said in 'The Perennial Philosophy' when he suggested that 'mind' was "amphibious." Analogous to an amphibious creature that can be at home on land or in the water, 'mind' can identify itself with 'matter' (the body), or it can identify itself with 'spirit' (Consciousness). There is a third category - the intellectual - for whom ideas are the thing that matters most. They are usually eccentric, self-absorbed in their own interests, and generally avoided as geeks, except by other intellectuals. They miss the the earthly pleasures of the flesh as well as the sublime ecstasies of the spirit.

The Gnostics (generally speaking) spoke of people in these three categories: those of the flesh (Sarkics or Hylics); those of the mind (Psychics); and those of the spirit (Pneumatics). The Psychics could be brought to the level of awareness that the Pneumatics could enjoin, but the Hylics' minds were sunken in their bodily processes to such an extent that they considered their own minds and thoughts to be little more than products of their bodies - much like people today who refer to themselves as 'intellectual meat.' Hylics are the materialists of today. I once shared their mind set; morphed into a Psychic during my early years of quest through ceremonial magic; and morphed again into a more Pneumatic person with psychedelics and new models. I mention this because unlike certain Gnostics or their Eastern Hindu counterparts, I do not belive in a fixed, spiritual caste system.

Contrary to "the fool" who "says in his heart, There is no God," the real lie is living as though one were not a being who draws moment-to-moment existence from the Ground of Being. The real absurdity is to see only individuality, to only see 'the ten thousand things,' and NOT to perceive Oneness. Not to see spiritually, or to act spiritually are what the stories about Jesus healing the blind and crippled are all about in the New Testament. Those who do not experience the underlying reality of spirit, are like fish who do not know they are in water, and not only in water, but created mostly of water. Those who experience their true natures Know that in God, "we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880068 - 09/12/02 09:08 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

Wow, thanks for posting this...
I have had an experience that you speak of, only 2 in my life that I am aware of; one at birth and one on mushrooms. I perceived, or rather merged with the "One spirit", what some call the white light. I know what you mean about going out of the body, but not in an astral projecting type of way. The only word I can think to describe it is a "transcending" of both body and mind, and a merging with spirit that was the most intense thing of my life. This one experience, although it happened more than a year ago, gave me and still gives me hope and faith, that someday I will permanently come back to this state of awareness. It was too strong to ignore, it is pulling me forward towards it, like a river to the ocean.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880132 - 09/12/02 10:02 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

Good post. I disagree with the header. I am an all-out atheist, but I recognize that I am NOT my body, I am my consciousness. However, at the same time I do believe that my consciousness is a direct result of the physical structure of my body. To me, this makes my consciousness no less significant or boundless, and I perceive oneness quite plainly every time I meditate. But I think none of that has anything to do with God. One will see in life what one wants to see.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlinepattern
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880155 - 09/12/02 10:15 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

excellent post!!  :laugh:

> I find it quite sad that individuals who very likely have taken moderate to large
> doses of psychedelics have not been 'given' the occasion to "discorporate,"

Why?  Those people have fun lives! 

Discorporating can be extremely depressing.

> Contrary to "the fool" who "says in his heart, There is no God," the real lie is
> living as though one were not a being who draws moment-to-moment existence
> from the Ground of Being.
> Not to see spiritually, or to act spiritually

Judgements of those who don't believe what you do.  Are you implying that everyone should take the spiritual path?  I disagree, for the reason that not everyone can. 


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


Edited by pattern (09/12/02 10:21 AM)


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #880161 - 09/12/02 10:18 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

In reply to:

One will see in life what one wants to see.


amen

very good post, markos!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #880176 - 09/12/02 10:27 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

Since no man is an island, and meditation derives from the earliest pioneers of the spirit, your own practice must either derive from or be similar to a practice that has been around for millennia. Regardless of the tradition, Ultimate Reality has been posited. Even the Dalai Lama used the word "God," when giving lectures at Harvard. He Knows, as do others, that a transpersonal (sometimes called impersonal) aspect of God is recognized. This truth is more evident in non-theistic systems like Buddhism, but Buddhism derives from Hinduism, and Gautama Knew even then that there is recognized Saguna Brahma abd Nirguna Brahma - Brahma with attributes and Brahma without attributes - the Personal God and the Impersonal God. If you understand God to mean Ultimate Reality in this way, then you pursue the Impersonal aspect, as do the Buddhists and some Hindus (the Impersonalist meditator on OM is recognized in the Bhagvad Gita as being "indirectly Krishna Conscious." There is no escape from God - only from semantics. Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: In(di)go]
    #880272 - 09/12/02 11:36 AM (15 years, 18 days ago)

Thanks Lozt Soul. You must not be lozt after all!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: pattern]
    #880308 - 09/12/02 12:04 PM (15 years, 18 days ago)

You remind me of an old 'Zippy the Pinhead' cartoon in National Lampoon Magazine, circa 1980, when Zippy says, "If our discipline is strict enough, we don't have to have fun." Who says that spirituality has to be dry piety? The models of spiritual development that paint a very dreary picture of somber, long-faced, black-robed renunciants is a perversion! One can be joyous without being totally depraved. I don't frequent tit bars, but I've gone on occasion - even to see strippers I've met at their work. I even take my wife, and what's more, I don't become filled with the demon of lust. I enjoy feminine beauty completely, yet I'm not appalled and horrified by an 'immodest' display (unless the woman is really quite unattractive!) Immodesty is not immorality... I do not visit whore houses. Sleeping with another woman would hurt my woman, if she knew, and she is SO intuitive, she would know. Moreover, lying and cheating would destroy my integrity.

What kind of "fun" are you referring to? There are certain constraints, as I mentioned above, that keep me from 'falling' from grace, so-to-speak. I'd love to get molested by a couple of gorgeous strippers on my next birthday (#50!), but I might have to content myself with window-shopping alone, while stoned, in Amsterdam, instead. My Lady might still allow me a lap dance, but no sex with another woman! The Biblical David or his son Solomon had hundreds of wives and concubines, yet they are attributed the highest favor with God, and for Solomon, the greatest Wisdom til Jesus!

Discorporating depressing?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then you, my friend, do not understand the meaning of the Greek word 'ecstasis' - being beside oneself - in utter bliss!!!! All this - and Heaven too!!!!! I have said nothing at all about my beliefs in my post. Neither have I judged anyone. YOU may feel convicted by my words, but that's just YOUR guilt for not believing whatever it is you know in your heart to be the Truth, and what my words remind you of! I'm too busy enjoying the gifts of God in this life, and as much of God as He gives His Presence to me here and now, to be concerned with judging anyone - let alone an anonymous virtual voice in cyberland.

Anyone and everyone can live in the Spirit if they choose to. Too many people are just 'spinning their wheels' in life (which, if it doesn't get you out of being stuck, should be changed for another strategy!). Eat all the junk food you can hold in your belly, and you'll still die of malnutrition. Such is the plight of unspiritual humans.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Anonymous

Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880789 - 09/12/02 04:52 PM (15 years, 18 days ago)

Interesting stuff Markos.  There seems to be a correlation between this thread and the one I am contributing to that I started called, "Truth?"

I hope you get a chance to look at it.  I'll show you mine if you show me yours. :wink:

Cheers, 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880884 - 09/12/02 05:36 PM (15 years, 18 days ago)

No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace
Yes, I saw this "clever" witticism on the bumper of a car as he cut across two lanes right in front of me. I was lucky to avoid a serious accident. Made me warm all over.

Interesting how you talk about both faith and experience in the same topic. If I had ever experienced anything like you speak of, or Jesus' "Peace that Passeth All Understanding", I would not need faith now would I?

Those who believe in a supreme power because they have directly touched the "ground of being" find those people to be fools who have not had this experience. So then faith does not come into the picture at all.

Sorry, but I cannot follow your logic.

The real absurdity is to see only individuality, to only see 'the ten thousand things,' and NOT to perceive Oneness.
Perhaps because there are ten thousand daily examples of individuals striving to take from others or exert power over others and very few examples of oneness. This is called "observation" rather than "aburdity".

Even the post-WTC sense of oneness is totally false. All tribes temporarily shrug aside differences in the face of outside harm. There is nothing spiritual about self-preservation, it is a primal emotion.

The instincts that we were born with are absurd? Fighting against your basic nature does not make you holy (whole), but splintered.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/13/02 12:34 AM)


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881016 - 09/12/02 09:04 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

In reply to:

Perhaps because there are ten thousand daily examples of individuals striving to take from others or exert power over others and very few examples of oneness. This is called "observation" rather than "aburdity".




ok so not many people behave like we are one... so you observe that we are not... we are separate... hmmm, i seriously didn't think you would come to a conclusion through what the masses say and do... but anyways my question is: do you see it working? do you see the behaviour of those people bringing them any good? because i don't... therefore your observation may be true, but you people fail to observe the most important thing: behaving like we are separate brings pain ... and through this observation you may perhaps start to think a little further... who knows...


--------------------


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #881018 - 09/12/02 09:06 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

hmmm... nope... i am no longer lost at all... but sadly you can't change you'r nick in these places  :grin: and i don't wanna lose my posts! hehehe  :crazy:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami] * 1
    #881051 - 09/12/02 09:50 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

Yes, well, I once had the opportunity to honk my horn at a car with the 'Honk If You Love Jesus' sticker on it. The guy gave me the finger. So what, probably his wife's car, or maybe like a lot of people, he wears his faith on his bumper instead of in his heart.

BTW, the Psalmist does not call the spiritually poor, fools. He refers to those who have made a proclamation about the nature of Reality from their refusal to believe - their refusal to assume a faith-stance.

Yes, the vacillation between faith and experience IS interesting. There is that famous BBC interview with Jung when he says, "I don't need to believe - I know," which has always marked him as a Gnostic. St. Paul did not believe in the resurrected Christ (he never met Jesus) until he had THE classic religious experience - the Light (which blinded his tainted sight); the Voice ("Saul, why dost thou persecute Me?"). Later, New Vision came to him, Saul became Paul after his experience, and belief followed. Yesterday I finished Elaine Pagel's book 'The Gnostic Paul.' Not a very common or popular take on the faith-gnosis tension. I for one had little or no faith in anything Transcendental prior to taking psychedelics. Certain experiences of immediate 'Knowing,' similar to Ram Dass's account of "the Witness" in the first section of BE HERE NOW, allowed me to assume a position of faith for greater things that I have not yet experienced.

I don't know what the post-WTC sense is that you mention, but the Oneness that I refer to is not meant in any social sense of 'we are all together.' It is meant as a psychospiritual mode of being. You may well be right in connecting 'the peace that passeth all understanding,' to a Sahaj Samadhi - God-Realized experience in which there is an abiding sense of Union underlying all of our psychological experience - all of our perceptions of the world as well as our inner perceptions of thoughts, feelings, motives (instinctual and otherwise), dreams, visions, etc.

The instincts, as foundational motives by which the rest of our physical-psycho-spiritual edifice maintains itself, is no less spiritual than the loftiest intellect. The whole being operating under a Master motive or a Meta motive, whether it is to 'love and serve the Lord,' or to 'vow to save all sentient beings,' or whatever, is what ultimately determines the spiritual or non-spiritual nature of things. The very same slap in the face can be an act of humiliating cruelty, or an act of the purest compassion, say, in keeping an drug-overdosed kid from falling into a coma.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #881084 - 09/12/02 10:42 PM (15 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Yes, well, I once had the opportunity to honk my horn at a car with the 'Honk If You Love Jesus' sticker on it. The guy gave me the finger. So what, probably his wife's car, or maybe like a lot of people, he wears his faith on his bumper instead of in his heart.




c'mon markos...the guy just hates christians, he drives around all day waiting to give them the finger. :grin:
you could get one - "honk if you love satan" ....

".... the fish gaspeth the hook,
thinking to find food,
but the fisherman is the enjoyer of the meal."

from 'the book of tokens'.

btw : a very enjoyable thread - thanx 


Edited by mr crisper (09/13/02 12:04 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: In(di)go]
    #881153 - 09/13/02 12:38 AM (15 years, 17 days ago)

therefore your observation may be true, but you people fail to observe the most important thing: behaving like we are separate brings pain ... and through this observation you may perhaps start to think a little further... who knows...

What you are speaking of is called cooperation and is a very effective technique. It is easier to raise the side of a barn with a dozen people rather than one. This however, does not point to any underlying spiritual oneness.

Forget my observation of people for a moment. The same thing occurs in the plant and animal kingdoms. I doubt the zebra feels a sense of oneness when the lion guts him.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #881174 - 09/13/02 12:55 AM (15 years, 17 days ago)

The guy gave me the finger. So what, probably his wife's car...

Fair enough. I italicized it because it was a throw-away anecdote.

When I go to the gym, I look around and see people that are, on average, physically superior to the masses because physical training works.

When I go to church or some other Christian function, I am unable to recognize a spiritual dimension greater than the masses. Now it could be a perceptual problem with me or it could be that ritual, prayer and studying scriptures doesn't work.

I am not sure if we are communicating poorly on the faith vs. experience thing, but I will try again.

Seems that most every famous teacher, guru, master, etc. speaks of faith while at the same time relating their transcendental experience.

How does one have faith without the transcendental experience, when it seems that the transcendental experience comes first?

If I have an experience of that depth, then I would not need one such as yourself trying to convince me of the spiritual plane of existence.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881196 - 09/13/02 01:07 AM (15 years, 17 days ago)

I know you didn't ask me but....

How does one have faith without the transcendental experience, when it seems that the transcendental experience comes first?

Very interesting question. Most skeptics don't ask questions like this. I have an answer but I will wait for his since you asked the question of him and not me and because I want to hear his answer as well.

Cheers,


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: ]
    #881302 - 09/13/02 02:35 AM (15 years, 17 days ago)

In reply to:

I hope you get a chance to look at it. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.




But yours is sooo much longer and thicker... almost scary.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881663 - 09/13/02 10:28 AM (15 years, 17 days ago)

i am not talking about cooperation... i am talking about inducing emotional, psychical and physical pain to each other... when you realize that we are all one you stop doing this... you know that the other person is just you acting in a different way, having a different experience of life itself...
have you ever perhaps imagined that the zebra, the lion and all other animals behave that way because our planet is drowning in duality? it is our negative energy an thoughts that condition the fauna and flora of this world to live in destructive ways... it's just a theory of mine... but well... we'll se once we rise the global consciousness on our planet


--------------------


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: In(di)go]
    #881713 - 09/13/02 10:51 AM (15 years, 17 days ago)

have you ever perhaps imagined that the zebra, the lion and all other animals behave that way because our planet is drowning in duality? it is our negative energy an thoughts that condition the fauna and flora of this world to live in destructive ways...

You are getting pretty far afield now.

1. "Negative energy" (without negative action) has never been shown to have any effect whatsoever. If such a force were that powerful, there would certainly be some evidence.

2. (Why am I even responding to this?) Um, plant and animal life were devouring each other for hundreds of millions of years before humans arrived.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/13/02 11:24 AM)


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