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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: How will it all end? [Re: World Spirit]
    #453212 - 11/09/01 05:25 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

this is very interesting to say the least.




Holy Trinity - Hacienda Heights. Sermon

...two trees that defined the relationship of God and man - the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The middle is God's place. Man's life revolved around God, with God in the middle. Life, knowledge, and death are God's to give, not man's to reach out and grab. Man received his life and his knowledge as a gift from God in the middle. Man was made from the mud by the hand of God and had God's breath of life breathed into his nostrils. Man was alive with the life of God, and he knew only good, for he was the image of God.

In the middle of the garden was a boundary, a line drawn by the Word of God. The line was the boundary between God and the image of God, between the Creator and His foremost creature. Every tree in the garden was given to man for food to preserve his life, every tree except the tree of knowing good and evil. This was man's freedom. He was free to eat of any tree in the garden but one. Man's freedom is a freedom with a middle and a limit. Only God has absolute freedom. This boundary line between God in the middle and man is the limit to man's freedom. Over this boundary man may not venture or he will die. [ego death -- mh] For man to reach his hand over that boundary line and eat the forbidden food was to reach into the middle, the place of life, and knowledge, and death, [ego death -mh] the place that only God may occupy. It was to usurp God's place, [trespass into the realm of the ground of being's sovereignty] to be a god in place of God, to push God out from the middle of life, to grab for what was not given. It meant death, for only God can be God. "For on the day you eat of it, you will surely die." [ego death, but not bodily death; you die but you do not die from the Amanita, archetypal entheogen - mh]

This is our temptation. We are tempted to trespass the boundary of God's Word [the sovereignty of the ground of being - mh] and exercise our freedom without limits, to push God from the middle and to put ourselves there, to draw life and knowledge from ourselves and our experiences instead from God, to live as if God did not matter and as if we mattered most. To live without God in the middle is death disguised as life. Temptation is a matter of life and death, not good and evil. [but this rebellion, taking to full completion, is the path and the door to our own individual revelation of the sovereignty of the ground of being over the phenomenal ego that was assumed to be sovereign. - mh]

Temptation began with an assault on God's Word. [no, a discovery of God's Word directly, as a prophet not needing the authoritarian hierarchy of the church as institution. - mh] "Did God really say that you must not eat from any tree in the garden?" Perhaps Adam and Eve had misunderstood or misheard. That didn't sound like God. How could God, who is good and love, impose limits on their freedom? It wasn't fair. Why would God have put a forbidden tree there in the first place? In the very middle of the garden, of all places.

"Did God really say." It is a religious question from a very religious serpent. It is the seed of all speculative theology and religious philosophy. Eve is invited to step back and become a dispassionate critic of God's Word instead of the object of God's passionate address. She is invited to reach behind and beyond God's Word, to speculate about God, to judge God and His Word, to draw conclusions about God apart from His Word, to use her own experience of God against God's Word. And if her experience conflicted with God's Word, then perhaps God's Word is wrong, or she must have misunderstood it. Eve was on her way to "schwaermeri," religious enthusiasm, faith fashioned by religious experience instead of God's Word. [false dichotomy - spoken from authoritarianism. Gnostic direct-experiencers in original Christianity equated religious experiences with God's word. The experience of falling in ego death and rising in rebirth *is* God's word, received directly. - mh]

...Did God really say, "Honor your parents," "Do not murder," "Do not commit adultery," "Do not steal, lie, cheat, slander, covet?" ...Perhaps it doesn't apply to our modern, enlightened situation. Did God really say, "This is my body; this is my blood" or did he mean something else? Did God really say, "The sins you forgive are forgiven?" Did God really say, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved?" Did God really say that he forgives sin unconditionally, that Christ has died and been raised for us, that we need no works in order to receive His mercy?

..."You will not surely die [bodily]. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." [you will die in the sense of ego death - mh] The Lie and the Truth lie close at hand. They are wound together tightly. The temptation is to reach into the middle, to cross the boundary between God and man, to be "like God" instead of the "image of God."

To be the "image of God" is to be bound to God's Word and to draw your life from God. To be "like God" is to be bound to your own experience of good and evil and to draw your life from your self.

...the fruit was desirable for gaining wisdom. Wouldn't God want them to be wise? She reached across the boundary into the middle and ate. And she gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

Adam and Eve took charge of their lives at that moment. Their eyes were opened. They experienced good and evil independently of God. Taking charge, they lost control. Adam fell and in Adam all mankind fell. Falling is the ultimate loss of control. ... Man cannot be "like God." He loses control. He falls. He dies.


Peace...

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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: How will it all end? [Re: ~`Tursiops truncatus`~]
    #453220 - 11/09/01 05:36 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Just thought I'd drop this in. Have fun :)

http://www.egodeath.com/index.html

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Re: How will it all end? [Re: ~`Tursiops truncatus`~]
    #453238 - 11/09/01 06:17 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: How will it all end? [Re: World Spirit]
    #453473 - 11/09/01 09:50 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Thought you might find this interesting.

Real Religion is Ultimately Personal
by Rodger Stevens
Behind all creeds the spirit is One.
--Andrew Lang

Recall the difference between who we really are and who we think we are. Who we really are was never born and will never die. Who we think we are is like the actor who is playing the roles of you and me. That actor doesn't come into being just when the curtain rises, and does not cease to be when the curtain comes back down, even though his character does. So it is with us. Who we really are is real, eternal, not limited to or confined by the time schedule of the play, and therefore eternally one with the ultimate reality some call God.
Real religion is personal because its intent is to relate and to contrast that part of us which is temporary (the role, the personality, You #2) with that part of us which is eternal (the actor, You #1). We have been talked out of our innate interconnectedness with Life, with Truth, and religion is what we call the process of rediscovering that link. The true Self (Atman, Brahma, the Father, who you really are) needs nothing to link it to what it already is.
Then again, since it deals primarily with the illusory part of us, religion itself can be said to be ultimately illusory; it will have to be different for each of us, because each of us has lost sight of the Self in a different way. The masters all discovered this, but they also realized that their followers didn't yet get the message, so they made suggestions in order to bring those followers back to their reality. Their advice to their disciples was not of the one size fits all variety, but was individually tailored to the needs and challenges of each disciple. Jesus' teaching was not given to an editorial panel, but to ordinary people who wanted to experience what he was experiencing; each needed different prompts.
All of us are different; what makes sense to me might not make sense to you. Naturally, our paths are different, so the promptings (and that's what they must be . . . not orders, but suggestions) we need as to how to follow that path will likewise be different.
But when they became organized, when the original master has passed from the scene and taken his divine insights with him, the religion that formed in his wake lost the ability to innovate, to treat each of us as a special case. The priests who came after the master didn't have enough soul to fill his sandals, so their only option was a creed, a static set of beliefs which had to be accepted without question, resulting in an intellectual and emotional bullying of the sort to which no master would stoop. The masters said, "Heal!", but the priests said "Heel!. That's dogma.
Accepting things on faith was something I had trouble with as a child. I was brought up a Lutheran; I got over it eventually, but until I did I could never rectify two conflicting tenets that were ground into me at a young and impressionable age. The first was that God was omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent . . . okay, I could accept that. But the second was that I, as a human being, was sinful, and therefore somehow other. In logical discourse, this is called a non sequitur . . . given that the first statement is true, the second doesn't follow.
If you start out with a ball of clay, and you make different things out of that clay--a cup, a figurine, a doorstop--these objects all have different appearances and functions, but they are still all made of that same clay. Similarly, if you begin with God and make a universe out of it (recall that, by definition, there was nothing else to work with) then what can that universe, and everything in it, possibly be composed of?
After I shook the dust of organized religion from my sandals, I learned that the link between big 'ol God and little 'ol me was no more and no less than consciousness. And each of us, at and as the very center of us, have this same feeling of I Am, for the not-so-obvious reason that each one of us is really God (Brahma) pretending to be each one of us. There is only one I Am, there is only one God, one Brahma, one Tao, one beingness. When I find Me #1, and you find You #1, we both see the same world, because we both are the same world. But we have so cleverly and convincingly hidden ourselves from ourselves that we really believe that we are separate entities. That's the hide part of hide-and-seek. Humanity has become hide-bound.


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Re: How will it all end? [Re: ~`Tursiops truncatus`~]
    #453746 - 11/10/01 07:03 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

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OfflineRenegade
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Re: How will it all end? [Re: World Spirit]
    #453807 - 11/10/01 09:21 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

You assume too much Enter. :-/

You profess knowledge - or at least awareness - of all these absolutes, yet you would struggle, I would imagine, to explain to me exactly where all this knowledge has eminated from. Do you speak to God then? Or has all your knowledge been extracted from Biblical texts? In either case, I seriously question the methods by which you have attained these "truths" of which you seem so steadfastly certain.

My major qualm with all deistic religions is that the search for the self - for individual purpose and meaning - can only be acheived via the backwards, fallicious method of first discovering God, then all else after it. God becomes the centre of the universe, all else - we humans included - simply become objects - sentient or not - in his realm. It assumes absolute reality before it even begins to even consider the subjective; the self. From the perspective of a bedroom philosopher, I'd be happy to delve more deeply into the virtually irrefutable concept of Cartesian dualism when I get the chance, but for now, all you need to know is that the internal world - the self - must be discovered before we can even consider launching ourselves into the external world.

Christianity operates by a convoluted doctrine of absolutes, and from the point of view of any self-respecting philosopher, the only "answer" (if you want to call it that) with regards to any form of conventional deism is thus:

There may well be a god, but it matters little. The possible existance of any gods should make no difference to the way in which we exist. If there is a god, then that's fine, but whether he created me or not, he has no business meddling in my affairs. The internal world that I continue to uncover, deconstruct then reconstruct, is so much more tangible, so much more meaningful, so much more *real* then any god that's ever been put proposed to me in my short life.

Much less than asking you to prove to me why you think god exists, I want you to tell me why it should matter.

It all comes down to the realisation that God could be, but I am: so which being holds the greatest power?

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Re: How will it all end? [Re: Renegade]
    #453829 - 11/10/01 10:04 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

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OfflineRenegade
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Re: How will it all end? [Re: World Spirit]
    #454370 - 11/10/01 07:51 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

I'll be brief:

"I am someone who meditates daily with most of his day and night. I am someone who prays daily. I am someone who reads the Word of God or at least meditates on specific Scriptures in the Word. In addition, I talk to as many people as I can about each other?s beliefs and meditate on each others words, whether Christian, Muslim, Atheist, etc. At a minimum, this is far superior to any other method I have discovered to obtain knowledge, awareness, and the impartation of concrete truths."

I'll assume for a second that you have been imparted some tangible information through meditation, but I'll ask again: how do you know that these messages were born of the external world, the world of god? If you could understand why it is you needed to believe in god, then you'd have far more answers than you do with your belief in God right now.

"If something exists, no matter what it is, it does matter. If oxygen exists, it matters. If food exists, it matters. How much more if God exists? Now, if He did not exist, that would also matter. I think this was a poorly thought out question IMO. "

You miss my point, and demonstrate just how important the belief in God is to you. I could become enlightened tomorrow, and be shown that God really does exist, but I fail to see how it should change the way I live my life. Seeing as God has tended not to interfere in human business for the past 2000 years, whether he's sitting up there judging me or not is fairly irrelevant to the pursuit of my Earthly goals. So again, given that there are literally thousands of proposed Gods - each one of them put-forward with the concrete certainty of which you speak - and that no-one has yet discovered them, why should I place any importance, in the course of my day to day life, on the discovery of god?

"Since you decided to be so crass in your manner of speech, you are forcing me to be obtuse. Who are you to make yourself seem so important? Who are you at all? You are dependent on food, air, shelter, sleep, etc. That?s what you come down to. You are one ant out of billions. God is holy[/]. There is no person like Him. He should not be compared to you. I?d like to see you create all the galaxies, the stars, the seas of the earth, all living things, and make them transcend from generation to generation. It is a foolish statement for someone to make themself out to be God or even compare themself to God."

How exactly was I being crass? I think here you reveal just how emotionally attached you are to the notion of God, and that is why you are so quick to block-out your mind to any oher possibilities. Have you asked yourself why you became a Christian in the first place? Was it because you asked youself all the hard questions and came up with the indisputable conclusion that the Christian god must be real? Or did you accept your God purely out of convenience - social, moral and geographical - and only ask the hard questions later?

You should be choosing your beliefs based on these questions, you shouldn't be choosing the questions based on your beliefs. If you preclude your belief in anything, then no amount of questioning will lead you to any other conclusion - regardless of the relative merits of either perspective.

Besides, I think you missed the point of my post. I was simply saying that the power I posess in the certainty of the self supercedes all other realisations, including that of the possible existence of god. I'm not saying that I could create galaxies or anything as complex as the human being, but I'd seriously question whether your concept of God is capable of it either. And further more, I may well be his creation, but that doesn't mean his existence should matter to me - in the same way that my existence - or your existence (you are one of billions, no?) - should matter to him.

You cripple humanity with your words so that you may emancipate God: and this is what is wrong with Christianity. As Neitzsche said: "it weakens the man so that it may heal him." Your perspective is antithetical to existence itself. If you genuinely believe that the existence of any being - omnipotent or not - is more important than your own, then I pity you.

Edited by Renegade (11/10/01 07:53 PM)

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Re: How will it all end? [Re: Renegade]
    #454433 - 11/10/01 08:55 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: How will it all end? [Re: World Spirit]
    #454696 - 11/11/01 04:00 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Scientificaly speaking if I were to look at myself at a sub atomic level there would be no difference between me and a tree or me and a drop of water or me and electricity etc... So how can this keyboard I'm typing on not be a part of "me".

If everything that makes up this universe is made of the same stuff then what is "God" made of? Was "God" not created too?... Personally, I don't have the faintest clue.

I like this though...

"A human being is part of the whole, called by us "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty".
- Albert Einstein


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Re: How will it all end? [Re: ~`Tursiops truncatus`~]
    #454752 - 11/11/01 07:42 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: How will it all end? [Re: World Spirit]
    #454993 - 11/11/01 02:20 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting points, I'll give it to you, you seem to have alot more knowledge about things then me. But is this keyboard I'm typing on not made of energy? Is energy not alive?

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Re: How will it all end? [Re: Revelation]
    #455605 - 11/12/01 12:27 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

evolution means extinction.
When we eventually trash the entire planet there will be all these empty niches and HUGE adaptive radiation and something else will live here.
It's not a matter of if it's a metter of when.


--------------------
"I get up, I walk, I fall down. Meanwhile, I keep dancing."

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OfflineRenegade
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Re: How will it all end? [Re: World Spirit]
    #455804 - 11/12/01 08:50 AM (22 years, 3 months ago)

This is why we call it faith, Renegade. Because there is a great sense of ?what-ifs? at all times. Each of us discerns and decides what they perceive to be true. I have gone my way. You have gone yours. Either way, each of us has a system of faith. I believe what I believe. Likewise, you believe what you believe. My beliefs include ?seeing the unseen.? A hard thing for most to accept, let alone believe for a long period of time.

No, I don't think that you can really "decide" what is true and what isn't. I have not decided what my "truths" are, I have simply accepted what is already true. Now, again, I have neither the time nor the inclination to delve into epistemology, but the quest for truth is not a moral one: different truths do not posess equal merit simply because they have been selected from the same grounds of evidence or experience. The fact that you have "decided" to believe in a god highlights the different approaches we are taking in our somewhat naive search for truth. I did not choose what I now consider to be true for I have no say in what "truth" is at all. What is true simply is: whether you wish to acknowledge it or not is another matter.

Faith does not make you see the unseen: it makes you see what isn't there. I may have faith in the existence of unicorns - a faith that you could not deter with either logic or empiricism - but it does not mean that unicorns exist. Simply because I have chosen to believe in the existence of unicorns, it does not necessarily make this choice as meritorious as the alternative. My opinion may well contain a dote of truth, but would still be a retroactive logic: having faith in the outcome before devising the rhetoric.

Anyway, like I said, I have no problems with you (or anyone else) believing in a god, so long as you understand why I feel slightly offended that you should go so far as to call it a "truth" when your system of belief and faith is antithetical to that very word.

My life, even with nothing else, is satisfied in the knowledge that I have somehow managed to touch the heart of God in my short lifetime.

I can only suggest that this is a somewhat pesimistic outlook. You have the concept of God taken away from you, then, and you have little left. Say I came up with incontravertible truth of god's non-existence: where would you be then? True happinness should orginate from within, not from the material world. Sure, the material world may bring great satisfaction to all of us - I'm not denying that - but the man with true happiness can have the entire external world taken from him and remain content.

Of course, you may argue that God isn't part of the external world, implying, by the dichotemy incinuated in Cartesian dualism, that he is found within the internal world. Why not just minimalise pluralities then, eliminate the middle man and find happiness within yourself? God is a means to happiness not the end in itself. God may exist: I assume he doesn't but I cannot rule out the possibility thathe does. If this is so then I fail to see what he could offer to humanity that isn't already inherent within each and every one of us: our own private, subjective "spirituality" (refering not to a transcendant spirituality - which the word implies in its everyday usage - but simply to the meaning and purpose that originates within ourselves. I couldn't think of a more appropriate word to describe what I'm talking about).

Now obviously my views are not going to shake you from what is so deeply ingrained into your person already, which is why I would like you to search within yourself - deeply and genuinely - why it is you believe in god. Is it because your parents made you and you never shrugged the habit? Or because you are enlightened in some way that the rest of us are not? I'm not asking you to justify your views to me, because how you choose to live your life doesn't matter a particularly great deal to me personally, but I still think you owe it to yourself to search the internal world for answers to these questions. Regardless of which path the answers to these questions lead you down, whatever you beliefs at the end can only be grounded in a far higher degree of certainty than your unquestioned beliefs right now.

Doubt is the true path to knowledge, and I sincerely doubt (excuse the pun) that any of you could argue otherwise (for arguing with that point implies doubt in the first place). :)

All I can respond to this is a general statement so I don?t get accused of judging anyone?I will not pity any person when they see me where they could have been.

You believe I'm going to hell then? Well, if that's the price I pay for searching truth then so be it. If god descriminates against people for posessing free thought - which he would have instilled us with in the first place - and he is the best thing wating for me in heaven, then thanks very much, I think I'd rather be in hell. :)

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Re: How will it all end? [Re: Renegade]
    #456159 - 11/12/01 03:47 PM (22 years, 3 months ago)

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Re: How will it all end? [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #8888420 - 09/06/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
Havoc,
<br>
<br>I hate it when people claim that differing opinions are ignorant.  Our extinction is irrelvant to the universe.  If we get wiped out, we'll be about as missed as the dinosaurs in the long run, and life will continue without the big, bad evil man. 
<br>
<br>And as for the rest of you, looking to go to outer space, we can't even agree on what the problems are on this planet.  How is space travel going to positively effect human nature?




It gives us more time to do what were meant to do. Evolve, advance, cure sickness, serve your god, whatever. It's that simple.


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mmm coming soon...

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Re: How will it all end? [Re: Havoc]
    #8889017 - 09/06/08 11:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Havoc said:
Humanity is faced with the biggest responsibility in this world. It's either take care of this planet or destroy it. I find myself wondering which one will it be? Each one of us possesses a human brain with a mind of infinite possibilities. No other creature on this planet is capable of what we are capable of. But, our capabilities go both ways, both creation and destruction. Humanity needs to responsible for this gift that has been given to us. If humans can create such complex things and develope all this technology using only 10% of our brain I can't even begin to imagine what the other 90% holds for us. Either we take responsibility for this great gift that has been given to us and elevate our minds or this planet and everything in it is doomed. The possibilities are endless. Spread wisdom not ignorance and elevate your mind. The rest has yet to be written, we will shape our own future. Will we have paradise or will we continue to destroy ourselves and the planet?




DISCLAIMER::
I have NOT read all replies, and I will most likely fail to do so, please do not chastise[sp?] me for my response, if it has already been said.  Thank you, and good day.


As far as fixing this planet, I think we have already come too far to fix it.  I think the next step in evolution, enlightenment, whatever you want to call it, is for our 'concious-being' to go to whatever we believe is paradise.  For those who are into religion it could be heaven, reincarnation, WTFever.  I do not believe there will ever be paradise on this earth, until she rids herself of her biggest parasite: humans.

and I hope that made sense...

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Re: How will it all end? [Re: Havoc]
    #8889533 - 09/07/08 02:17 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Not with a bang, but with a whimper.


--------------------
I don't believe in cops, bosses, or politicians. Some call that anarchism. I call it having a fucking heart that beats.


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Re: How will it all end? [Re: igwna]
    #8889539 - 09/07/08 02:19 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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