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No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace.
    #879970 -

I do not post topics very often, but today I felt motivated to do so. The name of the post was at the top of an e mail that someone sent me, and I took it as one of those synchronicities that occur in everyday life that I consider to be 'manna from heaven,' food for the spirit, or minor miracles.

I find it quite sad that individuals who very likely have taken moderate to large doses of psychedelics have not been 'given' the occasion to "discorporate," to use the term from the Frank Zappa song ("...it means to leave the body.") What I frequently encounter are dyed-in-the-wool materialists who have probably not accepted (which is a matter of faith) a mind-set, a model, that allows for the disengagement of mind from body, and a more complete identification with spirit. In other words, the basic model from Plato to Paul to Huxley to Alex Grey, is lacking among those who rant and rave against 'religion.'

Two clarifications are in order: Firstly, by leaving the body, I don't mean an astral projection. That is still 'in the body,' just a more subtle body. I mean something far more profound - the realization that who and what we essentially are is Consciousness - referred to back in the day as spirit. Consciousness, at its deepest level is characterized by timelessness and intensity, while at the shallower levels there is movement, change, and extension in space (our mind-body). Consciousness is not a thing or a substance, so the idea of boundaries does not apply. The mind-body has boundaries defined by the ego (MY thoughts, MY body). If a person can't grasp this, there is no sense pursuing this line of reasoning any further. Such a person can't experience him/herself as Consciousness (spirit); and perhaps this inability creates the frustration and anger that lies and denies that it is possible.

The second point for clarification, is what Huxley himself said in 'The Perennial Philosophy' when he suggested that 'mind' was "amphibious." Analogous to an amphibious creature that can be at home on land or in the water, 'mind' can identify itself with 'matter' (the body), or it can identify itself with 'spirit' (Consciousness). There is a third category - the intellectual - for whom ideas are the thing that matters most. They are usually eccentric, self-absorbed in their own interests, and generally avoided as geeks, except by other intellectuals. They miss the the earthly pleasures of the flesh as well as the sublime ecstasies of the spirit.

The Gnostics (generally speaking) spoke of people in these three categories: those of the flesh (Sarkics or Hylics); those of the mind (Psychics); and those of the spirit (Pneumatics). The Psychics could be brought to the level of awareness that the Pneumatics could enjoin, but the Hylics' minds were sunken in their bodily processes to such an extent that they considered their own minds and thoughts to be little more than products of their bodies - much like people today who refer to themselves as 'intellectual meat.' Hylics are the materialists of today. I once shared their mind set; morphed into a Psychic during my early years of quest through ceremonial magic; and morphed again into a more Pneumatic person with psychedelics and new models. I mention this because unlike certain Gnostics or their Eastern Hindu counterparts, I do not belive in a fixed, spiritual caste system.

Contrary to "the fool" who "says in his heart, There is no God," the real lie is living as though one were not a being who draws moment-to-moment existence from the Ground of Being. The real absurdity is to see only individuality, to only see 'the ten thousand things,' and NOT to perceive Oneness. Not to see spiritually, or to act spiritually are what the stories about Jesus healing the blind and crippled are all about in the New Testament. Those who do not experience the underlying reality of spirit, are like fish who do not know they are in water, and not only in water, but created mostly of water. Those who experience their true natures Know that in God, "we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880068 -

Wow, thanks for posting this...
I have had an experience that you speak of, only 2 in my life that I am aware of; one at birth and one on mushrooms. I perceived, or rather merged with the "One spirit", what some call the white light. I know what you mean about going out of the body, but not in an astral projecting type of way. The only word I can think to describe it is a "transcending" of both body and mind, and a merging with spirit that was the most intense thing of my life. This one experience, although it happened more than a year ago, gave me and still gives me hope and faith, that someday I will permanently come back to this state of awareness. It was too strong to ignore, it is pulling me forward towards it, like a river to the ocean.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880132 -

Good post. I disagree with the header. I am an all-out atheist, but I recognize that I am NOT my body, I am my consciousness. However, at the same time I do believe that my consciousness is a direct result of the physical structure of my body. To me, this makes my consciousness no less significant or boundless, and I perceive oneness quite plainly every time I meditate. But I think none of that has anything to do with God. One will see in life what one wants to see.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880155 -

excellent post!!  :laugh:

> I find it quite sad that individuals who very likely have taken moderate to large
> doses of psychedelics have not been 'given' the occasion to "discorporate,"

Why?  Those people have fun lives! 

Discorporating can be extremely depressing.

> Contrary to "the fool" who "says in his heart, There is no God," the real lie is
> living as though one were not a being who draws moment-to-moment existence
> from the Ground of Being.
> Not to see spiritually, or to act spiritually

Judgements of those who don't believe what you do.  Are you implying that everyone should take the spiritual path?  I disagree, for the reason that not everyone can. 


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man = monkey + mushroom

Edited by pattern (09/12/02 08:21 AM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #880161 -

In reply to:
One will see in life what one wants to see.

amen

very good post, markos!


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #880176 -

Since no man is an island, and meditation derives from the earliest pioneers of the spirit, your own practice must either derive from or be similar to a practice that has been around for millennia. Regardless of the tradition, Ultimate Reality has been posited. Even the Dalai Lama used the word "God," when giving lectures at Harvard. He Knows, as do others, that a transpersonal (sometimes called impersonal) aspect of God is recognized. This truth is more evident in non-theistic systems like Buddhism, but Buddhism derives from Hinduism, and Gautama Knew even then that there is recognized Saguna Brahma abd Nirguna Brahma - Brahma with attributes and Brahma without attributes - the Personal God and the Impersonal God. If you understand God to mean Ultimate Reality in this way, then you pursue the Impersonal aspect, as do the Buddhists and some Hindus (the Impersonalist meditator on OM is recognized in the Bhagvad Gita as being "indirectly Krishna Conscious." There is no escape from God - only from semantics. Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: In(di)go]
    #880272 -

Thanks Lozt Soul. You must not be lozt after all!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: pattern]
    #880308 -

You remind me of an old 'Zippy the Pinhead' cartoon in National Lampoon Magazine, circa 1980, when Zippy says, "If our discipline is strict enough, we don't have to have fun." Who says that spirituality has to be dry piety? The models of spiritual development that paint a very dreary picture of somber, long-faced, black-robed renunciants is a perversion! One can be joyous without being totally depraved. I don't frequent tit bars, but I've gone on occasion - even to see strippers I've met at their work. I even take my wife, and what's more, I don't become filled with the demon of lust. I enjoy feminine beauty completely, yet I'm not appalled and horrified by an 'immodest' display (unless the woman is really quite unattractive!) Immodesty is not immorality... I do not visit whore houses. Sleeping with another woman would hurt my woman, if she knew, and she is SO intuitive, she would know. Moreover, lying and cheating would destroy my integrity.

What kind of "fun" are you referring to? There are certain constraints, as I mentioned above, that keep me from 'falling' from grace, so-to-speak. I'd love to get molested by a couple of gorgeous strippers on my next birthday (#50!), but I might have to content myself with window-shopping alone, while stoned, in Amsterdam, instead. My Lady might still allow me a lap dance, but no sex with another woman! The Biblical David or his son Solomon had hundreds of wives and concubines, yet they are attributed the highest favor with God, and for Solomon, the greatest Wisdom til Jesus!

Discorporating depressing?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then you, my friend, do not understand the meaning of the Greek word 'ecstasis' - being beside oneself - in utter bliss!!!! All this - and Heaven too!!!!! I have said nothing at all about my beliefs in my post. Neither have I judged anyone. YOU may feel convicted by my words, but that's just YOUR guilt for not believing whatever it is you know in your heart to be the Truth, and what my words remind you of! I'm too busy enjoying the gifts of God in this life, and as much of God as He gives His Presence to me here and now, to be concerned with judging anyone - let alone an anonymous virtual voice in cyberland.

Anyone and everyone can live in the Spirit if they choose to. Too many people are just 'spinning their wheels' in life (which, if it doesn't get you out of being stuck, should be changed for another strategy!). Eat all the junk food you can hold in your belly, and you'll still die of malnutrition. Such is the plight of unspiritual humans.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880789 -

Interesting stuff Markos.  There seems to be a correlation between this thread and the one I am contributing to that I started called, "Truth?"

I hope you get a chance to look at it.  I'll show you mine if you show me yours. :wink:

Cheers, 

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #880884 -

No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace
Yes, I saw this "clever" witticism on the bumper of a car as he cut across two lanes right in front of me. I was lucky to avoid a serious accident. Made me warm all over.

Interesting how you talk about both faith and experience in the same topic. If I had ever experienced anything like you speak of, or Jesus' "Peace that Passeth All Understanding", I would not need faith now would I?

Those who believe in a supreme power because they have directly touched the "ground of being" find those people to be fools who have not had this experience. So then faith does not come into the picture at all.

Sorry, but I cannot follow your logic.

The real absurdity is to see only individuality, to only see 'the ten thousand things,' and NOT to perceive Oneness.
Perhaps because there are ten thousand daily examples of individuals striving to take from others or exert power over others and very few examples of oneness. This is called "observation" rather than "aburdity".

Even the post-WTC sense of oneness is totally false. All tribes temporarily shrug aside differences in the face of outside harm. There is nothing spiritual about self-preservation, it is a primal emotion.

The instincts that we were born with are absurd? Fighting against your basic nature does not make you holy (whole), but splintered.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/12/02 10:34 PM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881016 -

In reply to:
Perhaps because there are ten thousand daily examples of individuals striving to take from others or exert power over others and very few examples of oneness. This is called "observation" rather than "aburdity".



ok so not many people behave like we are one... so you observe that we are not... we are separate... hmmm, i seriously didn't think you would come to a conclusion through what the masses say and do... but anyways my question is: do you see it working? do you see the behaviour of those people bringing them any good? because i don't... therefore your observation may be true, but you people fail to observe the most important thing: behaving like we are separate brings pain ... and through this observation you may perhaps start to think a little further... who knows...


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #881018 -

hmmm... nope... i am no longer lost at all... but sadly you can't change you'r nick in these places  :grin: and i don't wanna lose my posts! hehehe  :crazy:


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami] * 1
    #881051 -

Yes, well, I once had the opportunity to honk my horn at a car with the 'Honk If You Love Jesus' sticker on it. The guy gave me the finger. So what, probably his wife's car, or maybe like a lot of people, he wears his faith on his bumper instead of in his heart.

BTW, the Psalmist does not call the spiritually poor, fools. He refers to those who have made a proclamation about the nature of Reality from their refusal to believe - their refusal to assume a faith-stance.

Yes, the vacillation between faith and experience IS interesting. There is that famous BBC interview with Jung when he says, "I don't need to believe - I know," which has always marked him as a Gnostic. St. Paul did not believe in the resurrected Christ (he never met Jesus) until he had THE classic religious experience - the Light (which blinded his tainted sight); the Voice ("Saul, why dost thou persecute Me?"). Later, New Vision came to him, Saul became Paul after his experience, and belief followed. Yesterday I finished Elaine Pagel's book 'The Gnostic Paul.' Not a very common or popular take on the faith-gnosis tension. I for one had little or no faith in anything Transcendental prior to taking psychedelics. Certain experiences of immediate 'Knowing,' similar to Ram Dass's account of "the Witness" in the first section of BE HERE NOW, allowed me to assume a position of faith for greater things that I have not yet experienced.

I don't know what the post-WTC sense is that you mention, but the Oneness that I refer to is not meant in any social sense of 'we are all together.' It is meant as a psychospiritual mode of being. You may well be right in connecting 'the peace that passeth all understanding,' to a Sahaj Samadhi - God-Realized experience in which there is an abiding sense of Union underlying all of our psychological experience - all of our perceptions of the world as well as our inner perceptions of thoughts, feelings, motives (instinctual and otherwise), dreams, visions, etc.

The instincts, as foundational motives by which the rest of our physical-psycho-spiritual edifice maintains itself, is no less spiritual than the loftiest intellect. The whole being operating under a Master motive or a Meta motive, whether it is to 'love and serve the Lord,' or to 'vow to save all sentient beings,' or whatever, is what ultimately determines the spiritual or non-spiritual nature of things. The very same slap in the face can be an act of humiliating cruelty, or an act of the purest compassion, say, in keeping an drug-overdosed kid from falling into a coma.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #881084 -

Quote:
Yes, well, I once had the opportunity to honk my horn at a car with the 'Honk If You Love Jesus' sticker on it. The guy gave me the finger. So what, probably his wife's car, or maybe like a lot of people, he wears his faith on his bumper instead of in his heart.



c'mon markos...the guy just hates christians, he drives around all day waiting to give them the finger. :grin:
you could get one - "honk if you love satan" ....

".... the fish gaspeth the hook,
thinking to find food,
but the fisherman is the enjoyer of the meal."

from 'the book of tokens'.

btw : a very enjoyable thread - thanx 

Edited by mr crisper (09/12/02 10:04 PM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: In(di)go]
    #881153 -

therefore your observation may be true, but you people fail to observe the most important thing: behaving like we are separate brings pain ... and through this observation you may perhaps start to think a little further... who knows...

What you are speaking of is called cooperation and is a very effective technique. It is easier to raise the side of a barn with a dozen people rather than one. This however, does not point to any underlying spiritual oneness.

Forget my observation of people for a moment. The same thing occurs in the plant and animal kingdoms. I doubt the zebra feels a sense of oneness when the lion guts him.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #881174 -

The guy gave me the finger. So what, probably his wife's car...

Fair enough. I italicized it because it was a throw-away anecdote.

When I go to the gym, I look around and see people that are, on average, physically superior to the masses because physical training works.

When I go to church or some other Christian function, I am unable to recognize a spiritual dimension greater than the masses. Now it could be a perceptual problem with me or it could be that ritual, prayer and studying scriptures doesn't work.

I am not sure if we are communicating poorly on the faith vs. experience thing, but I will try again.

Seems that most every famous teacher, guru, master, etc. speaks of faith while at the same time relating their transcendental experience.

How does one have faith without the transcendental experience, when it seems that the transcendental experience comes first?

If I have an experience of that depth, then I would not need one such as yourself trying to convince me of the spiritual plane of existence.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881196 -

I know you didn't ask me but....

How does one have faith without the transcendental experience, when it seems that the transcendental experience comes first?

Very interesting question. Most skeptics don't ask questions like this. I have an answer but I will wait for his since you asked the question of him and not me and because I want to hear his answer as well.

Cheers,

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: ]
    #881302 -

In reply to:
I hope you get a chance to look at it. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.



But yours is sooo much longer and thicker... almost scary.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881663 -

i am not talking about cooperation... i am talking about inducing emotional, psychical and physical pain to each other... when you realize that we are all one you stop doing this... you know that the other person is just you acting in a different way, having a different experience of life itself...
have you ever perhaps imagined that the zebra, the lion and all other animals behave that way because our planet is drowning in duality? it is our negative energy an thoughts that condition the fauna and flora of this world to live in destructive ways... it's just a theory of mine... but well... we'll se once we rise the global consciousness on our planet


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: In(di)go]
    #881713 -

have you ever perhaps imagined that the zebra, the lion and all other animals behave that way because our planet is drowning in duality? it is our negative energy an thoughts that condition the fauna and flora of this world to live in destructive ways...

You are getting pretty far afield now.

1. "Negative energy" (without negative action) has never been shown to have any effect whatsoever. If such a force were that powerful, there would certainly be some evidence.

2. (Why am I even responding to this?) Um, plant and animal life were devouring each other for hundreds of millions of years before humans arrived.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/13/02 09:24 AM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881722 -

In reply to:
1. "Negative energy" (without negative action) has never been shown to have any effect whatsoever. If such a force were tha powerful, there would certianly be some evidence.


there is! fucking look at our planet! earthquakes, volcanos, floods, bush fires... man if that is no proof for the amount of negative energy here then i think you are blind...

In reply to:
2. (Why am I even responding to this?) Um, plant and animal life were devouring each other for hundreds of millions of years before humans arrived.

now we'll turn things around... HOW DO YOU KNOW? DO YOU HAVE PROOF? WERE YOU THERE?


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: In(di)go]
    #881764 -

there is! fucking look...
uh oh, that anger just killed 2000 people in Chile...

...at our planet! earthquakes, volcanos, floods, bush fires... man if that is no proof for the amount of negative energy here then i think you are blind...
Methinks you need to read up a little bit on physics and causality before you call me blind.

The frequency and intensity of earthquakes and volcanoes as a long-term trend have been decreasing steadily since the formation of the planet. Try some basic geography. BTW WWII, a time of great anger, was a very mild period for geophysical changes.

Oh, and please stay away from the wacky websites for a while. I am sure you did not come up with the "anger causes earthquakes" hypothesis on your own.



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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (09/13/02 09:22 AM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881782 -

naaaaaa. i don't think i would stay away from the shroomery...


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881828 -

I think it was in a little known book by priest-author Andrew Greeley, 'Ecstasy: A Way of Knowing,' in which he staed that 'faith is a contemplative attitude.' By this, I believe that when one willingly assumes the stance of faith, one suspends ones prior faith stance, which in most peoples' cases is faith in the senses and reason.

BE HERE NOW, page 42 reads, "What you may not understand is: the whole game you have been playing is also based on faith. YOU HAVE HAD FAITH IN THE RATIONAL MIND. We are living in a socirty which is a temple dedicated to the rational man. Even though the first commandment says: I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. Even though that has been said & even though we repeat it we still worship the rational mind & its products. We worship our own sense data. It's only when we see the assumptions that we've already been functioning on that we can start to extricate ourselves. "

Long ago I saw this and decided to 'take the plunge,' by taking page 19 of BHN seriously. Now, if you are thinking, 'this guy has based his life on a cosmic comic book,' well, you're partly right. BHN turned me onto the original traditions, and then, like it says on page 19, I decided that "...they said it & therefore you know it to be true. It's not inference any more. It's not an intellectual process. You just accept what they have said. THAT'S FAITH."

Now, by now you should recognize that I'm not a simp[leton]. Mahatma Ghandi called his autobiography 'The Story of My Experiments With Truth." I also made my experiments.
When I realized that Life was not a scientific problem to be solved, but a Mystery to be Experienced, this 'plunge' became possible. I have never regretted the decision. Kids read about Carlos Casteneda stepping off onto a magical 'rainbow bridge' across a chasm and say "Cool!," but when it comes to making a real decision in one's own reality...nothing.

Anyone who even takes a psychedelic, thinking that something wonderful, magical, mystical or just interesting is gonna happen, demonstrates a rudimentary faith in such a possibility. If something does happen, and it bolsters their faith in what now may seem possible, they frequently discount that their initial decision to take a drug was a matter of faith. We could find possible experiences that led to this decision, so that we could illustrate that the faith-experience tension is a chicken-or-the-egg phenomenon. They both emerge from the Ocean of Consciousness, and it's a matter of when we first notice the emergence that we name it as one or the other. Did you ever take a hearing test and miss the first really really faint tone? It was there, but you didn't notice it. Almost like 'Let him with ears hear,' isn't it? Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #881858 -

You just accept what they have said. THAT'S FAITH.

If I accept King George's diatribes, does that mean that I have faith or does that only work when it comes to religious tradition? In another thread someone mentioned burning and burying their children as an act of faith. So how do I know which traditions to have faith in? People are frequently in error, making it hard to have faith in any man's words.

Now I am not thick, I know what you are saying that you start the path as an act of faith. Now maybe I have turned around every single time just before making that miraculous discovery, but with zero feedback along the way, the faith eventually withers.

I was a weak and underveloped teen-ager who got into weight training. I doubled or tripled my strength in less than 6 months because it works.

7 years of yoga, meditation and vegetarianism is quite an act of faith by any standard. I was physically quite healthy from the practices (a good thing!), but never had any inkling of anything spiritual, cosmic, mystical, nor even of being any happier. I found no peace, no inner guidance, no visions, no clarity - nothing. Not even a taste of what was hinted at in the literature.

The only seemingly mystical experiences that I had were on psychedelics. It takes "faith" to trust that they are not physically harmful, but takes no faith whatsoever to have an incredible experience. I had zero interest in tripping the first time, but my live-in girlfriend wanted to, so I went along as an act of sharing.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881924 -

my favorite religion is shin-ran buddhism
the great thing about shin-ran is that it's an off-shot of amida buddhism
amida was the buddha who refused to enter nirvana until all sentient beings could enter nirvana with him, so he reincarnates perpetually to bring everybody to supreme enlightenment
so one of the teachings of amida buddhism is that if you call on him once with true faith, that will be enough, even if you screw up this life entirely you'll do better in the next and on and on until you reach total detachment and nirvana.
all you gotta do is say in japanese "namu amida butsu", in the name of amida buddha, if you say it in true faith you will eventually be saved...
in the 12th century a buddhist monk named shin-ran meditated on this until his heart broke, he thought it was just not fair to those who couldn't muster a true faith, there are some people who are always asking questions, never satisfied, always asking the next question, always a little bit  skeptical - i'm one of them.  we just can't manage true faith, we just can't, we're always wondering... maybe there's an alternative, maybe there's another way of looking at it?... and amidah, the buddha of compassion, can he possibly leave us out if he's to bring all beings to bliss and enlightenment?... and shin ran decided that was impossible, so shin ran based his teaching that if you said "namu amida butsu" just once, whether you have faith or not, that's enough - you'll be saved eventually.  i think that is the most merciful, the most common-sensical, the most generous, and the most noble religion ever evented, at least it seems to us who are incapable of true faith in the traditional sense... so i've said "namu amida butsu" with some degree of faith and a great degree of skepticism on a numerous occasions.  i never manage total faith, but i like to say it, because shin ran says whether i believe it or not, it will work and all my problems will be solved. so try it, it may take a thousand years, but eventually you'll get there... and hey, we got lots of time  :wink:


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Edited by CosmicJoke (09/13/02 10:58 AM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881966 -

Forget King George. Compassion must be one's Guide. I likewise pursued the yogic path - including celibacy for about three years, and it helped control my mind so that 1) I could finish my philosophy degree, 2) I didn't become a sexaholic in the Quaalude-gulping disco 70's, and 3) it prepared me to make that 'plunge,' which I manifested by getting baptized and then entering a Christian seminary.

After the major deception by the Transcendental Meditation cult (a whole other story); and having visited several 'Masters' (Sri Chinmoy, Swami Satchidananda, Pir Vilayat...) and witnessed some of my peers prostrating themselves before a portrait of a fat little Hindu kid name Maharaji (Divine Light Mission) who lived in an estate by my college; would ride around on a lawnmower asking visitors about the Mystery of Life, Spirit, Death (LSD)...I was ready for a Big Name...Someone Whom I would definately trust, and wish to meet, and Someone Who I had been hearing about all my life, (one way or the other). In high school, I found myself drawing crucifixes one day, and in college I had a dream of the crucified Jesus in the stairwell of my freshman dorm, to Whom I offered morphine tablets (but which were refused). I had already been reciting words from BE HERE NOW for years; knew a bit about the Hridayam (Heart Cave) and its explication by Ramana Maharishi (coincidentally, I finished a small printed-in-India book of his this very day, that was given to me [get this] in 1975 by my best friend!), and I found the same mystical physiology in the Sacred Heart symbolism in Catholicism (not to mention page 19 in BHN).

I do not witness to my conversion, or completion experience much, but, 'Ask and ye shall receive; knock, and it will be opened to you.' For me, being-in-Christ, is the state of being, characterized by simple faith and centered on Compassion, that is The Way to God. And patience, my friend, is more than a virtue. 'In patience possess ye your soul,' sayeth the Good Book. Practically speaking, it's like that page 43 in BHN when the disciple of Meher Baba gives himself a minute in front of his devotional table because he's too busy to groove with the Baba ("All right Baba! I'll sit with you for one minute. Okay! Here we are. You've got one minute. Do your thing. Forty seconds left!").

If it takes a trip to get you to pray in Jesus' Name, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, without suppressed dynamics of childhood programming stopping you; or without feeling that you are merely talking to yourself, or the air (which, oddly enough, translates into psyche and pneuma - soul and spirit) - then take a trip. You have the bulk of Western archetypal experience in your favor. Not even Satan himself can prevent a sincere Heart from connecting - "With Unbearable Compassion!" I pray as I write this, that your experiment with Truth be completely successful, should you decide to undertake it. There is no 'Reason' that it will not be! Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #882161 -

all you gotta do is say in japanese "namu amida butsu", in the name of amida buddha, if you say it in true faith you will eventually be saved...

Unfortunately the Buddha was Indian and didn't understand Japanese...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #882166 -

sometimes your funny, swami... but this time... no offense, that was just lame


--------------------

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #882268 -

If it takes a trip to get you to pray in Jesus' Name, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, without suppressed dynamics of childhood programming stopping you; or without feeling that you are merely talking to yourself, or the air (which, oddly enough, translates into psyche and pneuma - soul and spirit)

Very interesting. I think I know what you are saying regarding the 'air' analogy (on psychedelics, I'm assuming) - when you have faith and several tabs of acid. When one assumes faith in what cannot be seen, but experienced - you wil sort of tap into the divine reality of everything that exists - that existence is sustained, by none other than the Almighty God, Ta'ala. For people of the faith, the ultimate reality is right there in their face, the world around them - not blind faith at all, but a knowledge of what is to come. For those who do not believe in the scriptures, their reasoning seems to also be a response to the world around them.
=-
The other night a friend of mine attempted to 'save me' from religion. His self-righteous approach was to constantly belittle me with antifaith remarks when I am clearly in the same room as him. He now has an essay in the works on why I should leave religion for the greater good of humanity. I'm writing one in reply, but most of it is an indirect, long worded reference to Religious Tolerance dot org. Not only that, he laid down a ground rule - I cannot mention God in my essay "because he doesn't exist," so "therefore it would be biased, because of religion.". I called him a Nazi of beliefs, and my other atheist friend quickly agreed. He disbelieves, that's a given. He openly refuses to be tolerant - which makes me wonder in the first place why I even hang out with him. One thing I do know, I am learning more and more from him about people like him, and I amuse myself often while tripping thinking about the analogies he has conjugated in the past. There is a refuge for all of mankind that people like, for some reason deny.


--------------------

Edited by Zahid (09/13/02 01:52 PM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Zahid]
    #882320 -

Ahhh...we appear to be on the same page - in agreement. I have known 2 grown men who professed to be atheists. We no longer have anything to do with one (or his wife), and the other is just a scraggly, intellectual, middle-aged Jew who will give you a filibuster on the non-existence of God if you say "God Bless you" after he sneezes. He has a serious woody for my Lady; I find him sneaky and devious (tries to interest me in meeting females that he works with); and do not want anything to do with him. I suggest that your days with atheists are numbered.

For my part, the first guy I mentioned wouldn't even discuss secular, scientific creation. That alone perhaps conveys too much 'numinosity' and mystery for him. Without some kind of goal to which human development can be directed, an individual can only live on the 'horizontal' plane of worldly experience - talk about places to see with one's eyes, for example. One has to be completely shallow, as this couple, to travel to Spain for weeks - go to the Prado museum, and not be able to appreciate the paintings of Hieronymous Bosch, or Francisco Goya - two of the most mystical and magical artists of all time. How can one ignore the vision-in-stone of Gothic cathedrals (never to have experienced mushroom visions which show the same vaults of light that have been seen and manifested in stone by Masters).

What is the point of your existence, O atheist? Why live - for pleasures of the flesh alone, or fear of putting an end to a meaningless existence? Meaninglessness, alienation from the Source and Ground of Being - God - is none other than Hell. I no longer attempt to convert Hell with testimony; neither do I want Hell inflicted on me, even unintentionally by such boring, miserable souls. No faith. No hope. And what is the possibility of genuine love from such a being who is alienated from the Source of Real love? Pray for them; be kind to them; but remember they are no friend of Truth.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #882355 -

He has a serious woody for my Lady; I find him sneaky and devious (tries to interest me in meeting females that he works with); and do not want anything to do with him. I suggest that your days with atheists are numbered.

This anecdote is many times worse than my bumper sticker one. If we must introduce meaningless personal stories, well as an atheist I have a much higher moral code than my married Christian friends, many of whom are banging each other's wives. I have never cheated on a girlfriend.

Getting back to the meat and potatoes after that nasty aside, without a method to attuning to the Ground of Being (I tried following in Paramanhansa Yoganada'a footsteps, to no avail) nor direct evidence (in my feeble perception), but tons of evidence of false beliefs and practices; HOW DOES ONE GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #882584 -

Markos, you can't even concieve the idea of someone deeply valueing their lives and relationships without praying to a god? wtf...

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Grav]
    #883440 -

I no longer have any intention of even conceiving of Reality that is not created and sustained by GOD - not "a god." Firstly, you have absolutely no clue as to where I'm coming from because you have no idea that GOD is not 'an object among others.' GOD is The First Cause, the a priori, the infrastructure of existence. See, I don't know quite how to get a questioner such as yourself to see himself as the object, and GOD as the Subject. We are all, in a manner of speaking, ideas in the mind of GOD - not the other way around. This perspective is the essential religious mentality. If one cannot adopt it on faith, sometimes one can be Graced with an experience that reveals this to be true.

The existence of GOD is not even a matter of debate for me at this point. I'm too into seeing how GOD interacts with my life through meaningful coincidences - everyday synchronicities - opportunities for me to act compassionately to others; dreams; gifts, both material and spiritual; opportunities to relate on this level to people such as yourself, as I am doing in this moment; opportunities for me to test my integrity against the temptations and corruptions of the world; new books that seem to make themselves known to me that expand my mental capabilities to share more clearly with you and others.

All these things happen during mundane, workaday, housecleaning, food-shopping reality. The 'soup' of life has become far, far richer than the thin, watery, non-nourishing broth I moved through with emptiness and boredom, back in the days. Tried to thicken the soup with the wrong ingredients - ruined it - had to start over. ?Comprende?


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #883470 -

Two separate responses to your post were lost - a long and a short one. Very strange. This is one of God's ways of telling me that He doesn't like the message, and this only seems to occur when someone's 'soul' is right on the edge of a radical change, and thus my words need to be brief, clear and to the point.

Point A to Point B requires the oft-used, but equally misused "leap of faith." In this case, it is meant to be taken literally. As BHN says, it's not an "intellectual process" any more. Your more essential self - your 'will' (consciouness is defined by phenomenologists as being 'intentional' in essence - willful) - simply turns your entire being toward the Object of Faith. It is an irreducibly simple intellectual function. All of one's complex mentations retreat back to the singularity of one's will. This is frequently accompanied by bodily postures of humility (head bowed, kneeling, prostrating, forehead to floor) and the corresponding mental posture of humility which basically begins with the 'will to believe,' but in one's weakness and seeming inability to believe, asks for help from God to complete the spiritual operation: "LORD, I believe; help thou mine unbelief," as the Markan (9:24) formulation goes. We cannot lift ourself off the Earth by our our bootstraps. We require Grace, which is why I am a Theist. Yoga, and Buddhism for that matter (and with all respect to the faith) cannot provide Grace, and neither do they promise such. For me, both were preparations for what was yet to come. Christianity promises Liberation in one lifetime (Vajrayana Buddhism says it is possible with them, but for the few. Perhaps for the few who discover God) +++


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #4911815 -

Swami said:


 


:smirk:

Also, a serious post yet to come after I finish this meal.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4912763 -

What are you a shroomery archaeologist?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Icelander]
    #4913141 -

Icelander said:
What are you a shroomery archaeologist?


:smirk:

Interesting word usage, you've painted quite the mental picture-concept for me. :thumbup:

I think it is a good idea to take up the archaeologists' effective yet subtle tools and occasionally disperse valuable artifacts to benefit current history (thus further propelling our evolution). :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4914730 -

Out of curiosity, what is the root of your system of morality? Where do you look for ethics?

The Holy book or rational? Or neither?

Also, what's your view on the man himself, Jesus H. Christ?

I consider myself a spiritual determinist. I believe that every event, including human cognition and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Nothing is completely random.

Every event is a consequent of every previous event, no event being independent.

I realize this is a chaotic system of thought for many reasons, an obvious one being morality. I believe that since people are assumed incapable of free will there can then be no rational basis for morality. Because of this many aspects of criminal and civil law appear irrational and unjust. It would be absurd to punish one for an involuntary action. (hence my curiosity into your ethics)

This system I've proposed is perfect in the sense that it has to have some underlying framework. It must have a law/equation/rule/principle that it abides to. This is what I refer to as GOD, simply because it is responsible for the governing everything and encompasses all empirical and theoretical knowledge and knowing.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4914863 -

fireworks_god said:
Icelander said:
What are you a shroomery archaeologist?


:smirk:

Interesting word usage, you've painted quite the mental picture-concept for me. :thumbup:

I think it is a good idea to take up the archaeologists' effective yet subtle tools and occasionally disperse valuable artifacts to benefit current history (thus further propelling our evolution). :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


Oh you do, do you? :bongload:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4914865 -

Know a priest, Know a priest.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Droz]
    #4914869 -

Out of curiosity; are you 12?

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4914907 -

spud said:
I believe that since people are assumed incapable of free will there can then be no rational basis for morality. Because of this many aspects of criminal and civil law appear irrational and unjust.


if there is no rational bases for morality how can something be unjust?

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Deviate]
    #4914913 -

By unjust I was more so referring to unsound. Not justified in doing so through the tools of truth.

Logically contradictory and rationally confusing.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4914927 -

so what is your alternative to our current justice system?

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Deviate]
    #4914948 -

Well, I have none to offer. What's the point of using a logically balanced system if it leads to the conception of justified wrong doing? Everyone would do anything and use determinism as a cop out.

Because of this, the pursuit of rational order becomes null, instead the focus becomes on pursuing systems that maximize happiness, both in the material and ethereal sense, within a world focused on promoting self deception. Deceived into believing we have free will.

For this, the Western paradigm of law does it's job fine.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. *DELETED* [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4915745 -

Post deleted by Moonshoe

Reason for deletion: ,


Edited by Moonshoe (11/09/05 10:46 PM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. *DELETED* [Re: Swami]
    #4915867 -

Post deleted by Moonshoe

Reason for deletion: ?



--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (11/09/05 10:47 PM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4915880 -

IMO, Swami is full of BS. No one would commit 7 long years of their life to events that brought NO desired effects. Especially events of that nature, events which are extremely consuming on time, the body, and the mind.

Either he experienced something or he never did as claimed.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4915883 -

Well, thanks for the compliment, but why the 'H,' 'E,' double hockey sticks did you resurrect THIS post  :confused: ?
Just curious, and I happened to see this before going to bed. You're right about not getting a big head - I don't indulge my ego, and I do manage to crank out some decent posts (at least my Lady thinks I should make a book out of them). I'm really not a genius (but thanks  :smile:  :heart:) and I do try to be honest and as clear as I can be. Together, it sometimes comes out as Truth (accurate reporting with minimal distortion).

And BTW - I'm fortunate to have found this Shroomery thing back in '99 because I don't know anyone in the non-virtual world (other than the Lady who recued me from my solitude) who gives a s**t about anything I have to say.

Peace and Friendship,
Mark[ostheGnostic]


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4915888 -

He didn't resurrect it, I did.

I also posed questions, justifying the resurrection.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4915944 -

didnt realise how old this thread was... thanks for resurecting it, its fascinating

markos, as always this is amazing reading, were lucky to have you

i also find it raises really interesting questions about spirituality... it certainly seems that there are spiritual "types" of people... for whatever reason, some people take to spirituality like ducks to water, while for others its a monumental struggle or even, perhaps, an impossibiltiy.

some of those who find themselves, for  reasons of genetics, cultural programing, personality, early child hood experience or whatever, are just unable to experience the metaphysical... seem to cope by telling themselves that all those people who do have genuine and ecstatic spiritual experiences are either lieing or deluded...

its one thing if someone is just not spiritually inclined and would rather drink and watch nascar... they can still be happy... but what if someone desperatly wants to experience god, works for years at all the accepted methods of doing so, and gets no results?

its really tragic... and i hope i dont sound pretentious for saying that... but i can relate to what markos is saying about what a pathetic life a godless one is... simply because without a spiritual element to life, all your left with is the material/physical and the intellectual...

now... i was born into wealth, and i have every material comfort that anyone could reasonably ask for... and without my spiritual path, god, and the moments of divine i experience, those things bring me NO real happiness... just slow creeping depression and sedation... no exception... when god/the path leaves my life, so does all real happiness...

its just so hard for me to believe you could meditate. do yoga and be vegetarian for SEVEN years and not experience anything "spiritual"...

im not calling you a liar, but ive never done yoga or meditated without some significant feeling of deep peace and calm... if not something more... and ive never done chakra/energy meditations wihtout actually feeling strong energetic sensations...and ive never meditated and done yoga and aten vegetarian for even a week without feeling like i was walking in god...

maybe its genetic... left brain right brain orientation?

:shrug:

peace to all...


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4916018 -

Quote:
i also find it raises really interesting questions about spirituality... it certainly seems that there are spiritual "types" of people... for whatever reason, some people take to spirituality like ducks to water, while for others its a monumental struggle or even, perhaps, an impossibiltiy.


I recommend you check out the book The God Gene : How Faith is Hardwired into our Genes

It may have the answers to many of your questions.



Time magazine covered the story about a year ago.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4916020 -

sounds interesting.,..

but if our dna compells us to seek a higher power, why dont we all then subsequently percieve it?

why do some poeple feel god without even looking , when swami can meditate for 7 years and get nada?


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4916027 -

It argues that only some people have the gene fully developed. It's an actual gene, he narrows it down and shows case studies that prove correlation. I forget exactly the details, I haven't read it in years.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4916043 -

This was before my time. Thanks for pulling it up Spud.  :thumbup: :heart:

This was a nice read Markos, the essence of it.

If you think of the word God as being the all that is, knowing it can bring great peace because, there is only one. One can't truly be in conflict without another.

Even what denies and rejects the one self and runs in opposition against or away from it is still the One, just afraid of itself. Silly when you look at it like that. Then again, maybe not because the one is POWERFUL. Like that saying, we are not afraid of what makes us less then, we are afraid of what makes us Great.

When you can surrender to it and just admit defeat and accept yourself and all that is as the One, peace is restored.

It's weird sometimes when you watch the world at war and in chaos and consider that as much as it looks like its going in infinite directions with infinite agendas, they all come down to one-self knowing through acceptance or denial.

Any time we are in fear or flat out scared to death, the power we are facing is that of our own we denied in ourselves, rejected and gave away to others and life to use over us.

The sooner we start accepting ourself, the sooner we come out of fear of the self and out of conflict with it and back into alignment and peace with it.

Know God-Know Peace. :thumbup: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4916262 -

it was a wonderful post markos, you are truly gifted when it comes to articulating these concepts. i still want talk with you or "lead a dialogue" as you put it but i've been very busy with school lately. i will try to get at least one of those books you recommended to me. i know exactly what you mean about people who have taken large doses of psychedelics and yet failed to "discorporate". i was able to "discorporate" using only marijuana. and there truly is a difference between taking a drug and experiencing its affects on your mind and merging into the pure consciousness of oneness.

as for swami, i don't really understand him. as was pointed out i find it difficult to believe he could follow such a strict regimen for 7 years without acheiving results along the way. for example with me, it doesn't take long at all for me to tell if a specific spiritual teaching or technique is going to be of use to me. for instance i remember shortly after i discovered the spiritual path my aunt sent me 3 or 4 books. i read over the first book and there was some concepts which interested but it didn't really "speak" to me or do anything for me. i read the next book and it seemed to make sense but again only at an intellectual level. the next day i was completely unchanged. the third book was the spiritual teaching of ramana maharshi and it had a profound effect on me. i finished the entire book the day i started reading it and immediately began reading it a second time. that night i had a profound spiritual experience of the pure consciousness. anyway the point im trying to make is that if spiritual teachings did not lead to benefits in my life or spritual experiences i would not have kept following them. i can usually tell very quickly if a specific teaching is of use to me and if i find it useful i generally notice minor affects on my basic level of awareness within days/weeks. for example for the past 2 months ive been practising some spiritual techniques i found on the internet which take up a considerable amount of time every day. now i can be a very lazy person and there is no way in hell that i would continue them (let alone do them with enthusiasm) if i wasn't noticing a positive affect. on the contrary i have noticed an incredible clearing of my mind over the past 2 months and i am almost a new person compared to how i felt over the summer. i cannot even imagine carrying out a spirtual regimen for 7 years without experiencing benefits along the way. i'd probably give up after a week or a month at the most. i also find it hard to believe that a truly sincere person could practise for 7 years and not experience benefits from it unless they were totally misunderstanding some fundamental concept or suffering from some strange psychological block. maybe swami never found the teaching that was right for him. why he would continue with the wrong teaching for 7 years is a mystery to me though. my philosophy is if something doesn't work after you've put your faith in it and and given it a sincere effort, you move on and you try something else.

Edited by Deviate (11/10/05 12:48 AM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Deviate]
    #4916304 -

Swami is well known for fabricating supporting evidence.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4916612 -

Quote:
its just so hard for me to believe you could meditate. do yoga and be vegetarian for SEVEN years and not experience anything "spiritual"...


I see it all the time. It depends on which part of the self is engaged in all these activities. If "spiritual" practice always led to living in spirit, we wouldn't be having all these discussions here or seeing all these religious countrys at war without and within, ect. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4916622 -

spud said:
Out of curiosity, what is the root of your system of morality? Where do you look for ethics?

The Holy book or rational? Or neither?

Also, what's your view on the man himself, Jesus H. Christ?




My adult sense of morality comes from different sources along the way of life. There was my parent's influence. My father hated liars and sneaks. Then there is my character - always the young experimenter and scientist as a child - seeking understanding, particularly of 'cool' phenomena (like distilling Bromine in a retort from Potassium Bromide and Sulfuric Acid during junior high school). Later, it was taking chemicals into the 'alembic' of my body and trying to understand the Psychedelic Experience which made me even more one-pointed about accurate reporting of psychological events and hence more 'honest' or 'truthful.'

Having determined the Holy nature of my quest for Higher Consciousness through psychedelics, my subsequent change of college major from biology to philosophy (and Indian philosophy in particular, with Greek Neoplatonic thought emerging), I underwent a late adolescent search for religious identity. I was baptized Catholic, spent two years in a Methodist seminary, and identified with being a follower of Jesus the Christ, whom I recognized as my model for human development. My 'Christology' has continued to change, but Jesus still remains the exemplar (mythic or historical) of Compassion which is the very essence of morality. I have not disregarded the Buddha as such an exemplar, but his example resonates more completely with the Eastern mind which in many cases can dispense with the process of prayer (whereas I cannot) without the entire loss of spirituality.

I use scriptures (not only the canonical Bible, but Nag Hammadi books as well) as a frame of reference for my own experience. I do not and cannot follow scriptures blindly because that is only following a course of action based upon an (often misunderstood) intellectual understanding of the words. An Experience alone seems to Illuminate the words of scripture, which then acquires real meaning.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/10/05 02:55 PM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4916633 -

let us know when the book drops


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4917750 -

What do you see the function of prayer as?

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #4917819 -

Quote:
Forget my observation of people for a moment. The same thing occurs in the plant and animal kingdoms. I doubt the zebra feels a sense of oneness when the lion guts him.


And yet they are one, in the sense that they are part of a greater entity known as an ecosystem.


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4919639 -

I like the use of the word "one-pointed". In my own quest for Truth I always maintained a curious mind-set at all times that I wanted to 'get to the bottom' of all, whether science, philosophy, or mythology. I was always a believer in evolution, but that did not explain the sheer complexity and order of existence. Likewise, I was skeptical of literalist interpretations of holy writ but nonetheless I persued the mystery, wanting to explore certain religious memories of my childhood. When I began experimenting with psychedelics I was able to experience myself as consciousness, which is not possible without the presence of the source of consciousness itself. A sense of "what was and what shall be" over took me, that being a sense of etnerity. The mysteries of God have been unravelling itself since the burst of time, and my desire to not be left behind only brought me closer to God. The only thing holding me back is the flesh that traps my spark - duality if you will. In order for God to reflect on His own mystery and beauty, he must allow something to escape his oneness, if only for awhile.

Edited by Unagipie (11/10/05 08:55 PM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4920112 -

Which form: Thanksgiving, Intercessory, Petitionary or Contemplative? I give thanks often, I have asked for others to be healed (Intercessory), I have 'petitioned the Lord with prayer' (you CAN petition the Lord with prayer) and for very very specific things. I once asked for decent next-door neighbors, of Indian descent (secondarily, Chinese), with Ph.D.s, preferably in one of my preferred fields like mental health. I received a Christian Indian family, both adults with Ph.D.s, the woman a mental health counselor like myself. I am still astounded some 15 years later. I've pondered the whole incident as a precogition on my part that I interpreted as my own desire (but it WAS my desire - I'm into Indian culture), because psychic events are comprehensible while personal responses to petitionary prayer are mindblowing!

Contemplative prayer, or 'practicing the presence' is practically indistinguishable from 'meditation' in other traditions except for the intellectual belief component which personifies the Infinite. G-D however, is both personal and transpersonal according to Hindu theology - with attributes and without attributes - like the Muslim 99 Names of G-D and like the Buddhist Clear Light of the Void respectively.

I may think and verbalize in the first three forms of prayer despite the understanding that G-D, the 'Always So,' Knows what I think before I utter any manifest words, yet the process of praying is carried both on the 'carrier wave' of human communication as well as through the spiritual aspect of our being that is co-extensive (if not identical) with G-D (the Holy Spirit [Consciousness] which prayer within us).

Really it's simple - one just cries or talks to G-D. "Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." It is simple, call me a simpleton.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4920137 -

Does God respond to the blind?

Is faith a precursor to "successful" prayer?

Could prayer be used as an intermediary tool for searching out divinity?

Should the curious, the seeking Gnostic pray?

And if so, any advice on how to go about it?

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4920202 -

MarkostheGnostic , i'm curious about your view on drugs and drug use. i originally thought of psychedelics as "God's drugs" but i've noticed many spiritual teachers have strongly advised against using drugs, even for purely spiritual purposes. assuming jesus was one of them how would that affect your feeling about him and your view of psychedelics? would you continue to use them anyway? how do you think natural psychedelics fit into creation as far as their purpose?

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4921831 -

What does physical blindness have to do with non-interaction with G-D? G-D is the "Ground of Being" for all of existence even taken in a strictly non-theistic metaphysical sense. What about the deaf, the mute, the armless? All physical human attributes have their correspondences in the Divine (in Kabbalah), not necessarily because WE project and anthropomorphize, but because we are a Microcosm of the Macrocosm - created in the image and likeness of G-D. We 'grasp' things with Understanding [Binah] and with fingers. G-D may not have physical fingers, composed of 'digits,' but the word 'digit' also means number, and the Kabbalah is very numeralogical when it comes to G-D. As math-heads at the Shroomery like to point out about Fibonacci sequences and such.

One either chooses to believe, in which case one is 'Justified,' theologically speaking, or not. 'Sanctification' has to do with growth and development which occurs after one chooses to believe. Then the growth has to do with dethroning one's ego as the center of one's personality formation, and recognizing a New Center of personal development - Christ (the Self in Jung) which is 'wholly other' than one's ego. It is this Divine Indwelling, the "I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me" that St. Paul wrote about. Successful prayer as I understand it is the alignment of one's ego with 'G-D's Will, not the reduction of G-D to one's 'genie-in-a-lamp.' Prayer, meaning moment-to-moment communion with Deity moves one in the direction of a successful spiritual development.

I do not understand your question about searching out divinity.

Anyone can pray. It is a matter of faith - the first step in acting outside of the dictates of sense and reason - to believe that the Ground of Reality is influenced by prayer. Some folks think that prayer is merely a technique for opening one's Heart through a 'Sacrificium Intellectus,' the objection to which is held by those who 'Pride' themselves on the impeccability of their logic. Faith and logic are two separate modes of apprehension, and one needs to be the Self behind both of those modes - not identified with one or the other to the detriment of one or the other.

Talk to G-D. At first your ego feels 'self-conscious' like it is talking to itself, or to the air. That is just ego stuff. If one is stopped by that, one can quickly see how egocentric, which is to say, how identified one is with one's ego. Some beginning activity is to begin Heart meditations aimed at 'Realizing' that G-D actually indwells the Heart. A Singularity - perhaps "search out" and contemplate the energy in your sino-atrial node - like the Glory that manifested between the wings of the Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant. Once you can establish the Truth of G-D's actual Presence in your Center (since G-D is at the Center of every atom, why not select a Point within?), then you can begin to make the transition between your identity with body and personality to the Self in your Heart. Here is a Kabbalistic book which describes the process in non-Christian terms:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/11/05 11:23 AM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Deviate]
    #4921868 -

I think that recent research and scholarship on the Greek Mystery Religions and early Christianity show use of psychedelics. Modern spiritual leaders do not want individuals to think for themselves either. When I entered teacher training for Transcendental Meditation in the 70s, they asked us if we had used psychedelics. Psychedelics show one Gnosis under ideal conditions, and that makes priests and their monopoly of the sacraments superfluous, effectively putting the power and control structure out of business. It is more radical than the Protestant Reformation which highlighted 'a priesthood of believers,' it suggests a 'Body of Knowers.'

I do not need psychedelics/entheogens to Know the Truth. I already Know, and I discovered G-D through certain Psychedelic Experiences. The Psychedelic Experience was the 'vehicle' for me. It temporarily 'aligned' (as in the word 'religio') my individual awareness with the Universal Awareness. Or again, it temporarily 'realigned' my opaque carbon-based life into the adamantine crystaine form of a Diamond Body through which the Divine Light of Awareness could shine and Illuminate my being. I do not worship psychedelics any more than I worship the sacramental 'drug' wine (or bread for that matter - carbohydrates are 'comfort food' for very chemical reasons). I use psychedelics to help scrape off the 'barnacles' of modern life that keep attaching to my psychophysical 'vessel.' I try to live simply. I try to 'eat when I eat and drink when I drink.' I don't own a cell phone despite its usefulness, it begins to make one into a cyborg. I do not multi-task: that is the opposite of the aforementioned Zen statement and it is inimical to Enlightenent. I am not trying to be different, or weird, but that it what it looks like to the multitudes who live and move in The Matrix.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4921880 -

Quote:
I think that recent research and scholarship on the Greek Mystery Religions and early Christianity show use of psychedelics.


Just out of curiosity -- which ones? Mushrooms? I'm not aware of what kinds of psychedelics are found in that region.


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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4921899 -

i wasn't talking about preists or modern spiritual leaders but even men like buddha and certain taoists who encouraged people to think for themself and question the spiritual authorities still advised against the use of psychedelics. even if early christians used psychedelics that doesn't tell us jesus's view of the practise because there are sects of buddhism that use them. so if jesus did indeed advise against them would it change your view of him/psychedelics? this is the one issue i continually find myself dissagreeing with spiritual teachers on. just the fact that so many of us here on this website have come to know the transcendent through their use seem evidence of their effectiveness. they may be risky but the risk comes with the potential for great rewards.

Edited by Deviate (11/11/05 11:34 AM)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4921910 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
What does physical blindness have to do with non-interaction with G-D?


I meant blind to God, not physically blind. Hence the lack of faith reference that follows.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Silversoul]
    #4924098 -

http://people.etnoteam.it/maiocchi/fabbro.htm

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/eleucont.htm


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4924121 -

Sorry, I took the obvious, non-metaphorical meaning  :blush:.

Gnostic psychology postulates three types of people. Those who are spiritually blind are the 'Hylics' sometimes referred to as 'Sarx' [flesh]. The materialists of today are Hylics, the 'Psychics' include those whose grasp of non-material reality are either confined to psychic phenomena, or those types of Christians who have not had spiritual experiences but live 'by faith.' Psychic Christians 'may' be graced with an Experience of Gnosis thereby transforming them into 'Pneumatics' - spiritual types.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4924149 -

Just for clarification, do gnostics believe that each different "type" travels to a different place after death?

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Deviate]
    #4924187 -

Iesus, or Y'shua was a 1st century Judean Jew who more than likely adhered 'religiously' to Jewish dietary laws. Mushrooms that grew out of dung were not going to be eaten under Kosher law for any reason. Psychedelics were not needed two millennia ago for the same reason that they are useful today. Then, a non-technological world existed. Simplicity ruled human life. The 'barnacle-stripping' effect of psychedelics was not needed then. Most moderns are so burdened with 'stuff' and so overly stimulated that desires are out of control. Low level humans - low life - criminals are criminals because like small children with adult desires and no impulse control, they have a vampyric obsession with materiality and its fulfillment. The multitudes are actually closer to being criminal insofar as ravenous desires fill their minds, but non-criminal if their morals and ethics check the obsession. Of course, there are plenty of professionals who routinely rip off the individual and the systems.

So, Y'shua would not eat mushrooms, and if one explained a tab of acid, it would probably be received by 1st century thinking as pharmakeia - sorcery. However, it is not a historical Jesus who is in question, it is G-D. Jesus would not comprehend chemistry, medicine or motive of a 21st century human. If the notion of sorcery can be lifted to high magic, 'theurgy' rather than 'thaumaturgy,' then perhaps in the light of the magic that the Old Testament bore testimony of, Jesus would understand righteous use. In trying to understand the place of Jesus in Judaism, the Talmud speaks of Jesus as being a magician, BTW.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4924254 -

Would you say then that the transformation into a Pneumatic is a Godly gift, one given to reward a loyal Psychic? A transformation that occurs when the time is just right.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4924329 -

No. I do not conceive of the relationship of G-D to human in terms of a relationship between two beings. G-D is not 'a being' - G-D is very Being, the Ground of Being - the Essence from which all existence is derived and sustained. We are not like loyal dogs. Spiritual growth and maturity is a relative thing. Not all men are physically like Mr. Universe. All mature trees are not Sequoias. We all carry limitations that are part of what Existentialists call 'the givens.' Perhaps it is spiritual inheritance, karma, consequences of more transmigrations. Sanctification includes 'assurance' - that sense of certitude about eternal verities that theology speaks of instead of 'gnosis.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4924369 -

Very interesting, I've never seen it from that perspective.

The recent readings of yourself and the conversations I've had with Zahid as of late have been quite intriguing.

I thank you both.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4924451 -

I believe, in adherence with scripture, that 'In my father's house are many mansions,' refers to differing post-mortem conditions. Now, whether spiritual growth and development continues, or whether there is any variation or change in Eternity is an interesting question. It would be nice (ego-syntonic) to rest assured that Eternity is not going to be dissapointing for anyone! I find it unlikely that 'I' am going to have a better trip then the average 'real' Church-going Christian (Psychic Christian) because I have had some High and Holy Experiences that someone else has not had. "You have seen and have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed." Like [Doubting] Thomas, I'm a Thomist Christian - I had a need to be convinced and G-D granted me that - more than once


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4924493 -

markos, i personally believe the mansions line refers to the vastness and the different levels of creation. for example the astral realm, the earth, life on other planets, the spiritual realm, etc. but are you saying you think someone who is a believer in fundamentalist christianity (assuming they have real faith) is better off than someone who doubted but came to believe through a spiritual experience such as you and me?

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Deviate]
    #4924993 -

Not fundamentalists - they are so concrete as to have reduced the spiritual to the material!

Faith, real faith, is an 'organ of apprehension' (as author-one-time priest Andrew Greeley wrote in Ecstasy: A Way of Knowing. A person who lives by faith, Knows by faith. Faith precedes gnosis, and this became the tenet of orthodox Christianity because it is an avenue open to anyone who is not merely 'Hylic.' Gnostics appealed to "high fliers" (as a theology professor once referred to me when I pointed out the BE HERE NOW saying about 'The Way is The Way is The Way,' in reference to the same Reality whether Jesus says "I AM The Way" or whether the word 'Tao' is being considered). The prof addressed a worried student who probably thought only in terms of a long haired bearded 1st century carpenter. He couldn't get the difference between Jesus and Christ, but I was being too Gnostic there because I understood the difference - 'the few, the proud, the Gnostics' - always "puffed up" with Knowledge went the charges against them traditionally.
In its (primarily Luke) attempt to become a universal faith, not just a cultic offshoot from Judaism (mostly Matthew), the theology of orthodoxy had to appeal to all people, not just the intellectually proficient. Luther further pushed the issue with his "by faith alone" theology. Gnosis is a High road, not open to everyone, but it must be tread with humility and no secretly treasured pride.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4925531 -

I just read this message elsewhere and it's essence made me think of this post so I thought to share it here. :heart:


From the Light Within, Know Me

Nothing can stand between us, dear ones, if you choose Me. This is a
law of Love. This is the principal of Creation. It is definitely the entire foundation of your existence beloveds. Nothing can stand between us unless you make another choice.

If you believe you are reaching for Me, but in the next moment you have the thought that you are not strong enough, you have made another choice. You have chosen that belief. You have redefined your reality. So, I come to you today to tell you that I Am here. I answer every call. I fill you with Love, with grace, with the longing for our communion.

Everything sweet that is the touch of Love, everything sacred that
burns in your breast, every longing for your remembrance of the Divine behind these thoughts. I Am rushing to you the moment you open your heart.

For you to believe that anything is stronger than My Love is for you to believe a lie. For you to believe that I ever want anything but your greatest joy is also a lie. I do not test you. I simply wait for you. I wait for you as you test yourselves. I wait as you grow into your faith in My Love.

We have a beautiful relationship. You each have such a beautiful
heart. You have been with Me for so long. Yet now, in this time of your offering for humanity,  many of you have chosen false
beliefs. You can open your heart to Me and you can translate My Love into gifts for humankind. You can turn your heart to others, to the
beautiful panoply of life, and you can hear their holiness. Yet in all of this, sometimes you do not lay your faith in Me. In the depths of your being, you still are afraid. You believe that there are powers of darkness that can overcome you.

It is this lie that we now must forever correct. For you cannot claim your life in Me unless you understand My Love. You cannot claim your life in Me if you will not allow Me to support you. It is this support I now offer you. I hold out the gift of light. I wrap you in the beauty of My Love. You must be able to walk in Me, to live in Me, to love in Me. You must correct these misperceptions now. For in all of you I have placed My faith, that you will be the carriers of My message of Love. Yet you cannot carry what your cannot believe.

I must be your everything. For I Am your father ? father of the
heavens, father of the universes, father of All That Is ? all that loves and moves ? all that has its being within Me -- as vast as you can ever comprehend -- as glorious, moving, uplifting. Oh yes, your highest vision, your greatest dream, times a million, and you have barely touched Me.

I Am your mother also. The womb of Love that brought you birth, that
so tenderly loves you completely, in every moment. The mother for whom you are perfection. The mother whose Love has no conditions, no
bounds, whose Love is the foundation upon which you can bet your life.

I Am your benefactor, your cheerleader, your most tender lover. And
now I call you both to come into a walk with Me that is utterly personal, totally faithful, absolutely Real every moment.

I am the center of your lives ? right there in that special heart space between you ? that ?womb of Creation? must be filled with the
complete knowledge of My presence. You all must come to know Me, to love Me in a way that is filled with joy ? a way that makes your heart overflow with Love. A way that brings your daily walk into a passionate and trusting relationship with Me.

This is what I now call you to. For dear ones, I must be fully present in you in a new and powerful way. I ask you to allow Me in -- to trust Me ? that as I fill you with My presence, there will be no room for anything else!

You can only do this when you are ready: ready to give up your belief in your own strength. Ready to accept that only your heart can hold any answers, and those only when your heart is turned over to Me.

Nothing can keep you from Me. Nothing. If you call on Me, you must
know that all heaven and all of Earth must move to deliver you to Me --
to the experience of My presence and My movement in your heart and life!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4926397 -

The path of devotion. It reminds me of Thomas a Kempis. Very nice, thanks for taking the time to include it (but who wrote it?!)

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4926987 -

God is such a strange thing, because it seems that God is the absence of itself. What I mean is that it isn't a "thing" that you can find, almost more the absence of things. I really get what Buddhists mean when they talk about emptiness.

Last time I rolled on ecstacy I felt that I could see God but then I realized that it was only a brain chemical, a singular experience and God is not something that I can ever identify individualy. It's like all things together working in an eternal motion.

I wonder about the 'God is love thing' though because it seems like that love is an object or experience.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4927102 -

can God be love and all things working together in eternal motion at the same time? in my opinion, yes. i think that when God is realized consciousness becomes love or rather all anti-love is removed from consciousness. this presense of unconditional love is God and within it appears the matter universe, which is also not apart from God. but i think the state of absolute being or pure love is beyond even the matter universe and outside space and time which exist within it.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Deviate]
    #4927137 -

Well I guess that does kind of make sense. Because if God is the formless union of all things then its nature would be of unity which is the opposite of lonliness or isolation which would be love and acceptance. I think that works ok for me.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4927221 -

Markos,

It was co-authored by a couple, Yael and Doug Powell. It was inspiring and uplifting to me. Glad you liked it.

Hey Deviate and Sky. I use to use this play on words
energy in motion
e-motion
emotion

Eternal could be used to;
eternal motion
e-motion

Some times, I think of the energy of love as being the power that moves things and the energy of light as being the power that guides and directs the movement.

:peace:  :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4927234 -

Quote:
Some times, I think of the energy of love as being the power that moves things and the energy of light as being the power that guides and directs the movement.


wow, i've thought the exact same thing.

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