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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881722 - 09/13/02 10:56 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

In reply to:

1. "Negative energy" (without negative action) has never been shown to have any effect whatsoever. If such a force were tha powerful, there would certianly be some evidence.



there is! fucking look at our planet! earthquakes, volcanos, floods, bush fires... man if that is no proof for the amount of negative energy here then i think you are blind...

In reply to:

2. (Why am I even responding to this?) Um, plant and animal life were devouring each other for hundreds of millions of years before humans arrived.


now we'll turn things around... HOW DO YOU KNOW? DO YOU HAVE PROOF? WERE YOU THERE?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: In(di)go]
    #881764 - 09/13/02 11:22 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

there is! fucking look...
uh oh, that anger just killed 2000 people in Chile...

...at our planet! earthquakes, volcanos, floods, bush fires... man if that is no proof for the amount of negative energy here then i think you are blind...
Methinks you need to read up a little bit on physics and causality before you call me blind.

The frequency and intensity of earthquakes and volcanoes as a long-term trend have been decreasing steadily since the formation of the planet. Try some basic geography. BTW WWII, a time of great anger, was a very mild period for geophysical changes.

Oh, and please stay away from the wacky websites for a while. I am sure you did not come up with the "anger causes earthquakes" hypothesis on your own.



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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/13/02 11:22 AM)


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881782 - 09/13/02 11:31 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

naaaaaa. i don't think i would stay away from the shroomery...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881828 - 09/13/02 11:57 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I think it was in a little known book by priest-author Andrew Greeley, 'Ecstasy: A Way of Knowing,' in which he staed that 'faith is a contemplative attitude.' By this, I believe that when one willingly assumes the stance of faith, one suspends ones prior faith stance, which in most peoples' cases is faith in the senses and reason.

BE HERE NOW, page 42 reads, "What you may not understand is: the whole game you have been playing is also based on faith. YOU HAVE HAD FAITH IN THE RATIONAL MIND. We are living in a socirty which is a temple dedicated to the rational man. Even though the first commandment says: I AM THE LORD THY GOD THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. Even though that has been said & even though we repeat it we still worship the rational mind & its products. We worship our own sense data. It's only when we see the assumptions that we've already been functioning on that we can start to extricate ourselves. "

Long ago I saw this and decided to 'take the plunge,' by taking page 19 of BHN seriously. Now, if you are thinking, 'this guy has based his life on a cosmic comic book,' well, you're partly right. BHN turned me onto the original traditions, and then, like it says on page 19, I decided that "...they said it & therefore you know it to be true. It's not inference any more. It's not an intellectual process. You just accept what they have said. THAT'S FAITH."

Now, by now you should recognize that I'm not a simp[leton]. Mahatma Ghandi called his autobiography 'The Story of My Experiments With Truth." I also made my experiments.
When I realized that Life was not a scientific problem to be solved, but a Mystery to be Experienced, this 'plunge' became possible. I have never regretted the decision. Kids read about Carlos Casteneda stepping off onto a magical 'rainbow bridge' across a chasm and say "Cool!," but when it comes to making a real decision in one's own reality...nothing.

Anyone who even takes a psychedelic, thinking that something wonderful, magical, mystical or just interesting is gonna happen, demonstrates a rudimentary faith in such a possibility. If something does happen, and it bolsters their faith in what now may seem possible, they frequently discount that their initial decision to take a drug was a matter of faith. We could find possible experiences that led to this decision, so that we could illustrate that the faith-experience tension is a chicken-or-the-egg phenomenon. They both emerge from the Ocean of Consciousness, and it's a matter of when we first notice the emergence that we name it as one or the other. Did you ever take a hearing test and miss the first really really faint tone? It was there, but you didn't notice it. Almost like 'Let him with ears hear,' isn't it? Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #881858 - 09/13/02 12:19 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

You just accept what they have said. THAT'S FAITH.

If I accept King George's diatribes, does that mean that I have faith or does that only work when it comes to religious tradition? In another thread someone mentioned burning and burying their children as an act of faith. So how do I know which traditions to have faith in? People are frequently in error, making it hard to have faith in any man's words.

Now I am not thick, I know what you are saying that you start the path as an act of faith. Now maybe I have turned around every single time just before making that miraculous discovery, but with zero feedback along the way, the faith eventually withers.

I was a weak and underveloped teen-ager who got into weight training. I doubled or tripled my strength in less than 6 months because it works.

7 years of yoga, meditation and vegetarianism is quite an act of faith by any standard. I was physically quite healthy from the practices (a good thing!), but never had any inkling of anything spiritual, cosmic, mystical, nor even of being any happier. I found no peace, no inner guidance, no visions, no clarity - nothing. Not even a taste of what was hinted at in the literature.

The only seemingly mystical experiences that I had were on psychedelics. It takes "faith" to trust that they are not physically harmful, but takes no faith whatsoever to have an incredible experience. I had zero interest in tripping the first time, but my live-in girlfriend wanted to, so I went along as an act of sharing.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881924 - 09/13/02 12:54 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

my favorite religion is shin-ran buddhism
the great thing about shin-ran is that it's an off-shot of amida buddhism
amida was the buddha who refused to enter nirvana until all sentient beings could enter nirvana with him, so he reincarnates perpetually to bring everybody to supreme enlightenment
so one of the teachings of amida buddhism is that if you call on him once with true faith, that will be enough, even if you screw up this life entirely you'll do better in the next and on and on until you reach total detachment and nirvana.
all you gotta do is say in japanese "namu amida butsu", in the name of amida buddha, if you say it in true faith you will eventually be saved...
in the 12th century a buddhist monk named shin-ran meditated on this until his heart broke, he thought it was just not fair to those who couldn't muster a true faith, there are some people who are always asking questions, never satisfied, always asking the next question, always a little bit  skeptical - i'm one of them.  we just can't manage true faith, we just can't, we're always wondering... maybe there's an alternative, maybe there's another way of looking at it?... and amidah, the buddha of compassion, can he possibly leave us out if he's to bring all beings to bliss and enlightenment?... and shin ran decided that was impossible, so shin ran based his teaching that if you said "namu amida butsu" just once, whether you have faith or not, that's enough - you'll be saved eventually.  i think that is the most merciful, the most common-sensical, the most generous, and the most noble religion ever evented, at least it seems to us who are incapable of true faith in the traditional sense... so i've said "namu amida butsu" with some degree of faith and a great degree of skepticism on a numerous occasions.  i never manage total faith, but i like to say it, because shin ran says whether i believe it or not, it will work and all my problems will be solved. so try it, it may take a thousand years, but eventually you'll get there... and hey, we got lots of time  :wink:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Edited by CosmicJoke (09/13/02 12:58 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #881966 - 09/13/02 01:20 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Forget King George. Compassion must be one's Guide. I likewise pursued the yogic path - including celibacy for about three years, and it helped control my mind so that 1) I could finish my philosophy degree, 2) I didn't become a sexaholic in the Quaalude-gulping disco 70's, and 3) it prepared me to make that 'plunge,' which I manifested by getting baptized and then entering a Christian seminary.

After the major deception by the Transcendental Meditation cult (a whole other story); and having visited several 'Masters' (Sri Chinmoy, Swami Satchidananda, Pir Vilayat...) and witnessed some of my peers prostrating themselves before a portrait of a fat little Hindu kid name Maharaji (Divine Light Mission) who lived in an estate by my college; would ride around on a lawnmower asking visitors about the Mystery of Life, Spirit, Death (LSD)...I was ready for a Big Name...Someone Whom I would definately trust, and wish to meet, and Someone Who I had been hearing about all my life, (one way or the other). In high school, I found myself drawing crucifixes one day, and in college I had a dream of the crucified Jesus in the stairwell of my freshman dorm, to Whom I offered morphine tablets (but which were refused). I had already been reciting words from BE HERE NOW for years; knew a bit about the Hridayam (Heart Cave) and its explication by Ramana Maharishi (coincidentally, I finished a small printed-in-India book of his this very day, that was given to me [get this] in 1975 by my best friend!), and I found the same mystical physiology in the Sacred Heart symbolism in Catholicism (not to mention page 19 in BHN).

I do not witness to my conversion, or completion experience much, but, 'Ask and ye shall receive; knock, and it will be opened to you.' For me, being-in-Christ, is the state of being, characterized by simple faith and centered on Compassion, that is The Way to God. And patience, my friend, is more than a virtue. 'In patience possess ye your soul,' sayeth the Good Book. Practically speaking, it's like that page 43 in BHN when the disciple of Meher Baba gives himself a minute in front of his devotional table because he's too busy to groove with the Baba ("All right Baba! I'll sit with you for one minute. Okay! Here we are. You've got one minute. Do your thing. Forty seconds left!").

If it takes a trip to get you to pray in Jesus' Name, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, without suppressed dynamics of childhood programming stopping you; or without feeling that you are merely talking to yourself, or the air (which, oddly enough, translates into psyche and pneuma - soul and spirit) - then take a trip. You have the bulk of Western archetypal experience in your favor. Not even Satan himself can prevent a sincere Heart from connecting - "With Unbearable Compassion!" I pray as I write this, that your experiment with Truth be completely successful, should you decide to undertake it. There is no 'Reason' that it will not be! Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #882161 - 09/13/02 02:40 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

all you gotta do is say in japanese "namu amida butsu", in the name of amida buddha, if you say it in true faith you will eventually be saved...

Unfortunately the Buddha was Indian and didn't understand Japanese...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #882166 - 09/13/02 02:45 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

sometimes your funny, swami... but this time... no offense, that was just lame


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OfflineZahid
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #882268 - 09/13/02 03:41 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

If it takes a trip to get you to pray in Jesus' Name, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, without suppressed dynamics of childhood programming stopping you; or without feeling that you are merely talking to yourself, or the air (which, oddly enough, translates into psyche and pneuma - soul and spirit)

Very interesting. I think I know what you are saying regarding the 'air' analogy (on psychedelics, I'm assuming) - when you have faith and several tabs of acid. When one assumes faith in what cannot be seen, but experienced - you wil sort of tap into the divine reality of everything that exists - that existence is sustained, by none other than the Almighty God, Ta'ala. For people of the faith, the ultimate reality is right there in their face, the world around them - not blind faith at all, but a knowledge of what is to come. For those who do not believe in the scriptures, their reasoning seems to also be a response to the world around them.
=-
The other night a friend of mine attempted to 'save me' from religion. His self-righteous approach was to constantly belittle me with antifaith remarks when I am clearly in the same room as him. He now has an essay in the works on why I should leave religion for the greater good of humanity. I'm writing one in reply, but most of it is an indirect, long worded reference to Religious Tolerance dot org. Not only that, he laid down a ground rule - I cannot mention God in my essay "because he doesn't exist," so "therefore it would be biased, because of religion.". I called him a Nazi of beliefs, and my other atheist friend quickly agreed. He disbelieves, that's a given. He openly refuses to be tolerant - which makes me wonder in the first place why I even hang out with him. One thing I do know, I am learning more and more from him about people like him, and I amuse myself often while tripping thinking about the analogies he has conjugated in the past. There is a refuge for all of mankind that people like, for some reason deny.


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Edited by Zahid (09/13/02 03:52 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Zahid]
    #882320 - 09/13/02 04:07 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Ahhh...we appear to be on the same page - in agreement. I have known 2 grown men who professed to be atheists. We no longer have anything to do with one (or his wife), and the other is just a scraggly, intellectual, middle-aged Jew who will give you a filibuster on the non-existence of God if you say "God Bless you" after he sneezes. He has a serious woody for my Lady; I find him sneaky and devious (tries to interest me in meeting females that he works with); and do not want anything to do with him. I suggest that your days with atheists are numbered.

For my part, the first guy I mentioned wouldn't even discuss secular, scientific creation. That alone perhaps conveys too much 'numinosity' and mystery for him. Without some kind of goal to which human development can be directed, an individual can only live on the 'horizontal' plane of worldly experience - talk about places to see with one's eyes, for example. One has to be completely shallow, as this couple, to travel to Spain for weeks - go to the Prado museum, and not be able to appreciate the paintings of Hieronymous Bosch, or Francisco Goya - two of the most mystical and magical artists of all time. How can one ignore the vision-in-stone of Gothic cathedrals (never to have experienced mushroom visions which show the same vaults of light that have been seen and manifested in stone by Masters).

What is the point of your existence, O atheist? Why live - for pleasures of the flesh alone, or fear of putting an end to a meaningless existence? Meaninglessness, alienation from the Source and Ground of Being - God - is none other than Hell. I no longer attempt to convert Hell with testimony; neither do I want Hell inflicted on me, even unintentionally by such boring, miserable souls. No faith. No hope. And what is the possibility of genuine love from such a being who is alienated from the Source of Real love? Pray for them; be kind to them; but remember they are no friend of Truth.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #882355 - 09/13/02 04:24 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

He has a serious woody for my Lady; I find him sneaky and devious (tries to interest me in meeting females that he works with); and do not want anything to do with him. I suggest that your days with atheists are numbered.

This anecdote is many times worse than my bumper sticker one. If we must introduce meaningless personal stories, well as an atheist I have a much higher moral code than my married Christian friends, many of whom are banging each other's wives. I have never cheated on a girlfriend.

Getting back to the meat and potatoes after that nasty aside, without a method to attuning to the Ground of Being (I tried following in Paramanhansa Yoganada'a footsteps, to no avail) nor direct evidence (in my feeble perception), but tons of evidence of false beliefs and practices; HOW DOES ONE GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B?



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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #882584 - 09/13/02 06:41 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Markos, you can't even concieve the idea of someone deeply valueing their lives and relationships without praying to a god? wtf...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Grav]
    #883440 - 09/14/02 07:03 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I no longer have any intention of even conceiving of Reality that is not created and sustained by GOD - not "a god." Firstly, you have absolutely no clue as to where I'm coming from because you have no idea that GOD is not 'an object among others.' GOD is The First Cause, the a priori, the infrastructure of existence. See, I don't know quite how to get a questioner such as yourself to see himself as the object, and GOD as the Subject. We are all, in a manner of speaking, ideas in the mind of GOD - not the other way around. This perspective is the essential religious mentality. If one cannot adopt it on faith, sometimes one can be Graced with an experience that reveals this to be true.

The existence of GOD is not even a matter of debate for me at this point. I'm too into seeing how GOD interacts with my life through meaningful coincidences - everyday synchronicities - opportunities for me to act compassionately to others; dreams; gifts, both material and spiritual; opportunities to relate on this level to people such as yourself, as I am doing in this moment; opportunities for me to test my integrity against the temptations and corruptions of the world; new books that seem to make themselves known to me that expand my mental capabilities to share more clearly with you and others.

All these things happen during mundane, workaday, housecleaning, food-shopping reality. The 'soup' of life has become far, far richer than the thin, watery, non-nourishing broth I moved through with emptiness and boredom, back in the days. Tried to thicken the soup with the wrong ingredients - ruined it - had to start over. ?Comprende?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #883470 - 09/14/02 07:28 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Two separate responses to your post were lost - a long and a short one. Very strange. This is one of God's ways of telling me that He doesn't like the message, and this only seems to occur when someone's 'soul' is right on the edge of a radical change, and thus my words need to be brief, clear and to the point.

Point A to Point B requires the oft-used, but equally misused "leap of faith." In this case, it is meant to be taken literally. As BHN says, it's not an "intellectual process" any more. Your more essential self - your 'will' (consciouness is defined by phenomenologists as being 'intentional' in essence - willful) - simply turns your entire being toward the Object of Faith. It is an irreducibly simple intellectual function. All of one's complex mentations retreat back to the singularity of one's will. This is frequently accompanied by bodily postures of humility (head bowed, kneeling, prostrating, forehead to floor) and the corresponding mental posture of humility which basically begins with the 'will to believe,' but in one's weakness and seeming inability to believe, asks for help from God to complete the spiritual operation: "LORD, I believe; help thou mine unbelief," as the Markan (9:24) formulation goes. We cannot lift ourself off the Earth by our our bootstraps. We require Grace, which is why I am a Theist. Yoga, and Buddhism for that matter (and with all respect to the faith) cannot provide Grace, and neither do they promise such. For me, both were preparations for what was yet to come. Christianity promises Liberation in one lifetime (Vajrayana Buddhism says it is possible with them, but for the few. Perhaps for the few who discover God) +++


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblespud
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Swami]
    #4911815 - 11/09/05 12:44 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:


 



:smirk:

Also, a serious post yet to come after I finish this meal.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: spud]
    #4912763 - 11/09/05 11:01 AM (15 years, 10 months ago)

What are you a shroomery archaeologist?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: Icelander]
    #4913141 - 11/09/05 01:34 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
What are you a shroomery archaeologist?




:smirk:

Interesting word usage, you've painted quite the mental picture-concept for me. :thumbup:

I think it is a good idea to take up the archaeologists' effective yet subtle tools and occasionally disperse valuable artifacts to benefit current history (thus further propelling our evolution). :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblespud
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4914730 - 11/09/05 08:39 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Out of curiosity, what is the root of your system of morality? Where do you look for ethics?

The Holy book or rational? Or neither?

Also, what's your view on the man himself, Jesus H. Christ?

I consider myself a spiritual determinist. I believe that every event, including human cognition and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Nothing is completely random.

Every event is a consequent of every previous event, no event being independent.

I realize this is a chaotic system of thought for many reasons, an obvious one being morality. I believe that since people are assumed incapable of free will there can then be no rational basis for morality. Because of this many aspects of criminal and civil law appear irrational and unjust. It would be absurd to punish one for an involuntary action. (hence my curiosity into your ethics)

This system I've proposed is perfect in the sense that it has to have some underlying framework. It must have a law/equation/rule/principle that it abides to. This is what I refer to as GOD, simply because it is responsible for the governing everything and encompasses all empirical and theoretical knowledge and knowing.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: No God - No Peace. Know God - Know Peace. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4914863 - 11/09/05 09:10 PM (15 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
What are you a shroomery archaeologist?




:smirk:

Interesting word usage, you've painted quite the mental picture-concept for me. :thumbup:

I think it is a good idea to take up the archaeologists' effective yet subtle tools and occasionally disperse valuable artifacts to benefit current history (thus further propelling our evolution). :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Oh you do, do you? :bongload:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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