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OfflineLearyfan
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Believers and non-believers
    #623118 - 04/30/02 12:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe we all believe the same thing, but to different degrees. I'll try to explain.
Believers basically believe that the soul goes through the same basic process that we all know the body goes through.

The earth gives birth to life everywhere. All of life is made of the same stuff that the earth is. "Believers" believe that "the essence" gives life to the souls, using the same ingredients that it is made of.

When life on earth "dies" it decomposes, and once again becomes a part of the mother that bore it which is the earth. The earth doesn't reject any of it's children because of things that that lifeform had or had not done in it's life. Why would the earth punish or reject itself? "Believers" believe that when the soul leaves it's body, it also goes back to it's place of origin, which some call "the essence", and that "God" or to use a better word, "Life" would not reject it's child for anything that the lifeform had or had not done in it's life. Why would "life" punish or reject itself?

It seems that the big question is weither there is a soul or not. Believers feel in their heart that they are a tri-part being, and take the leap of faith that the process our souls go through, is similar to the process that our bodies go through.

I believe. If you don't that's fine.




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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623151 - 04/30/02 01:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Why would you even post something like this?

I believe. If you don't that's fine.
Nice "humble" statement... I sure am glad you're the tolerance king.

It seems that the big question is weither there is a soul or not.
Actually, I don't give two shits about that question. I think it is more of a problem for egocentric individuals who want to live forever because they're afraid of the ultimate unknown: Death.
"Maybe if I have a soul and my soul is eternal, I won't really die..."
Gimme a fuckin' break.
YOU DIE. That's it. Game over. If there is an afterlife, it will just be a bonus. But don't count on it. Live your life regret-free by never doing anything you'd regret. It's that simple. Only the egocentric would need the afterlife crutch.

But, of course, "If you don't (believe this) that's fine"... you'll just be another pain in our collective ass.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #623159 - 04/30/02 01:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I sure am glad you're the tolerance king.
ROTFLMAO!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623180 - 04/30/02 01:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It seems that the big question is weither there is a soul or not.
I have yet to get a straight answer on this: From where does this belief come? Did this spontaneously come to you or was it from your culture? Would you still believe in a soul if you had been born alone on the hypothetical desert island? I think not. Seems to me that it is merely myth handed down.

Believers all talk about faith. I want to know the source!

Let's consider abortion for a moment and disregard personal moral stands on the
issue. With the soulless model of life, it is non-problematic because it is a continous model. However, with the soul model of life; everything gets extremely complicated and legalistic. Does the soul enter the body at the point of conception(what about 1 nano-second before or after?); when born, when the heart starts, when the umbilical cord gets cut? Does the soul hover nearby waiting for the perfect set of physical conditions to enter? Is a condom evil by preventing the soul from entering? On and on it goes...

No one has a clue, hence the endless arguments by theologans.


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OfflineskaMariaPastora
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #623237 - 04/30/02 02:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

According to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the soul enters the fetus 49 days after conception. I think that's the only faith that tries to put a number on it. Where they got that number I have no idea.

I think the main difference between believers and non-believers is just terminology. When you die, the energy that was running around in your brain doesn't disappear. Energy cannot be created nor distroyed, merely changed in form. When you die your life energy disperses out rejoins everything around you. This fact is not inconsistent with either the mystical or scientific models. Believers chose to label this life energy as a "soul" and scientists label it as "electric potential" or something. I think we all believe essentially the same thing, and when we all die we will interpret what happens based on our semantic framework and therefore all be proven correct.

Non-believer: "Hey look, my energy has been transfered to the soil I'm burried in, just like I thought!"
Believer: "Hey look, my soul has left my body and fused with Gaia, just like I thought!"


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Sclorch]
    #623238 - 04/30/02 02:51 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You people are unbelieveable. I posted this thread to show that us believers beliefs are somewhat similar to the non-believers. It was sort of like a peace offering. Sort of like saying "hey we're all basically the same". Or "hey there's not much difference between us. Let's come together.", and this is what I get. I get attacked.
I even included a picture of the Beatles(symbolic of the believers) and the big Blue Meanie(symbolic of swamiites)

Why would I post something like this?
Oh, I don't know, maybe because this is the Spirituality and Philosophy forum? What made you react like that?

I believe. If you don't that's fine. (LF)
Nice "humble" statement... I sure am glad you're the tolerance king.

Please explain why that statement is not humble and tolerant. I believe, if you don't THAT'S FINE. What's so bad about that statement, and why did Swami take such glee in me getting called out about it? I noticed you said YOU DIE. That's it. Game over. and swami didn't require any proof of that



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Edited by Learyfan (04/30/02 02:58 PM)


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #623242 - 04/30/02 02:54 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I have yet to get a straight answer on this: From where does this belief come? Did this spontaneously come to you or was it
from your culture?

Culture. There's your straight answer. If that's not straight enough for you, then let me know what you want me to say, and i'll say it.



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623334 - 04/30/02 04:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Swami- Everyone KNOWS that a soul is created at the moment of ejaculation. Duh.
I'll let someone else comment on the ramifications of that tidbit...

Culture. There's your straight answer.
Finally.... Thank you.
Now we can dispel the myth (calm down).

I take it that the illegality of the mushroom is also a cultural hand-me-down, yet for some reason I feel like you have abandoned that value...
So, you must have arrived at the conclusion (one way or another) that entheogens are not evil. That means you were, dare I say it (Yes! Dare!), SKEPTICAL of what you were told.
This leads us to the issue at hand: the existence of the SOUL.
Your dogmatic insistence (I haven't forgotten about the pseudo-tolerant statement "If you don't [believe] that's fine.") on your position leads me to further question your reasoning methods. If it was just how you were raised (what you're comfortable with... read: what makes you feel secure), then what reasoning calculus are you currently using that allows you to toss the "entheogens are bad" stance but not toss out the "existence of a soul" stance?

If it makes you feel comfortable and secure, that's fine, but if you don't seriously question the foundation upon which that belief stands (a la Descartes?), then why would you post such a belief, since you know we're going to shoot it down?

Don't trade your cognitive liberty for security.
It's a bum deal... trust me.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623363 - 04/30/02 05:47 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Learyfan, I understand and accept the idea that everything is part of a greater whole. I would refer to this greater whole as 'The Universe' or 'Nature.' However, I do not seek to impose anthropomorphic qualities upon the Universe or the unknown, nor do I seek to define the rules for it. Rather, I seek to discover it's nature and to learn what rules it operates by.

Using terms such as 'mother earth' or 'father time' for example show that the user of such terms is in some sense assigning human values to some aspects of the universe. This says more about the users semantic/linguistic model of the universe than it does about the true nature of what they are attempting to describe. Another idea that is tightly held is that the universe must have a conscious designer. I have yet to get a satisfactory answer as to why this is so, usually people will point to things around them and say 'look at all this, somebody must have made it.' This is again, applying human concepts to the universe at large. What they assert may or may not be true, but it is only an assertion and does nothing to unearth greater knowledge or facilitate understanding of what is already known.

The concept of soul seems to me to be largely an extenstion of the survival instinct being filtered through the rationalizing mind. All normal people want to live and keep living, what better way to accomplish this than not dying. But since everyday we see the mortality of our fellow humans, most of us try to comfort ourselves with the thought that a conscious part of us, a 'soul,' will live on. A whole industry is built upon this (religion) and is a source of great material wealth and power to those who operate it in it's various forms.

I am quite willing to accept the prospect that I am mortal. I am willing to accept the prospect that the universe might not operate the way I would like it to. I have no hidden agenda, my goal is to constantly grow in my understanding of the universe and the rules it operates by. In order to do this I have to be able to seperate the actual from the desired, the real from the fantasy. To fail to make these distinctions is backpedaling away from my goal, and will lead to atrophy instead of growth.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: ]
    #623377 - 04/30/02 06:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Great post evolving.

Why is it that the "skeptics" on this board are so literate and can articulate their thoughts so well?
It must be because we don't believe in poor grammar and mediocre thinking...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623391 - 04/30/02 06:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"I even included a picture of the Beatles(symbolic of the believers) and the big Blue Meanie(symbolic of swamiites)"

So you "hand pick" all of these pictures before you post? That must be a pain in the ass.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623409 - 04/30/02 06:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Culture. There's your straight answer.
Yeah! A shroomery milestone.

So the "faith' part of the equation comes not from trusting God or The Universe, but from believing stories that you were told as a young-un. Why is difficult for believers to accept that there are those of us that do not buy these handed-down myths? Some of us want more substantiation than an ancient tale.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #623424 - 04/30/02 07:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You gotta love ska! Ever the ambassador, trying to unite the warring factions (no sarcasm intended).

I think the main difference between believers and non-believers is just terminology.
I have to disagree here (albeit not strongly). There is no doubt that I live due to forces and conditions over which are beyond my control or choice (that I am aware of). I will accept the terminology of "life-force" as a reasonable discription for this mysterious something.

I think where believers and non-believers separate, is in the INDIVIDUALITY of souls. If there are individual souls, there is no reason (except arrogance) to believe that they are limited to humans. So every time a creature gives birth, a soul factory creates a new piece of mysterium. And that piece of mysterium will retain it's individuality in some other realm for all eternity (is there an algae heaven?) These assumptions do not seem to fit any model

...and when we all die we will interpret what happens
When we die our memories and bodies are obliterated. So what part of "me" will interpret or continue? Some part that "I" have been unaware of my entire life? Then that is most certainly not "me" as is commonly perceived.

I can accept "The we are all drops of water that will return to the ocean" theorem. But when the drop is returned, it is no longer a drop. All boundaries and hence, individuality, disappear.

Hope I am somewhat clear in these ramblings.

Hey, this is one of the first "real" discussions on this forum. Now if we can just make it thru with no one muttering the A---- word, that would be something.


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (04/30/02 07:18 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623430 - 04/30/02 07:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You people are unbelieveable.
Aha! I knew you had a skeptic bone in your body somewhere. A believer that does not believe. Oh the irony of it all...

...and the big Blue Meanie(symbolic of swamiites)
WTF is a swamiite? I want no followers, no cult - hey wait, do I get to "initiate" young female disciples and lots of free drugs?

and why did Swami take such glee in me getting called out about it?
Glee is the highest teaching and I was not laughing at you. I happen to find Sclorch a funny guy. Don't be so sensitive. I love you, too!



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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineGRiMBLe_GRuMBLe
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: skaMariaPastora]
    #623445 - 04/30/02 07:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

According to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the soul enters the fetus 49 days after conception. I think that's the only faith that tries to put a number on it. Where they got that number I have no idea.

by skaMariaPastora

That is the same amount of days it takes for the pineal body to appear in a fetus. I'm pretty sure this is proven if anyone wants to research. Of course it may not be related, buts its a striking coincidence.

Peace


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Free Yourself From Yourself


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OfflineJPAtanat
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #623554 - 04/30/02 10:30 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps you are right - that this is one of the first "real" discussions we've had on a while. I noticed a comment you made:
"I will accept the terminology of "life-force" as a reasonable discription for this mysterious something. "

whether souls/life-force live on or are individual is probably not as important as the nature of the "mysterious something." That is what I am most interested in. It is the raw kernel of consciousness - what makes me a sentient creature.

I think that maybe the difference between believers and non-believers is that non-believers want to figure themselves out in terms of the world around them, and with believers it is the other way around. I think it was evolving who had a rather eloquent post earlier about attempting to discover the rules that this universe operates on. Whereas I am not interested in the rules that the universe operates on, I am interested in the rules that my kernel of consciousness (soul/life-force) operates on, since that seems to be the fundamental ground of my being.

I think that at least understanding, if not accepting, the fundamental paradigm of the opposing group would help out our discussions alot, so that we could get past this childish way of trying to prove that the other is stupid or closed-minded or whatever. So let's persist in this discussion and try to gain some ground in that respect.

I hope that makes some sense.


Peace Earthlings.


Edited by JPAtanat (04/30/02 11:23 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623691 - 05/01/02 01:49 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

For me, being a believer means believing in myself. It's funny how that works out...


Love,

The Lord


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Swami]
    #623830 - 05/01/02 08:28 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

You guys really took offence to this post, damn. That really surprised me to tell you the truth. I don't want to keep going on, but before I do, let respond to one thing from swami

So the "faith' part of the equation comes not from trusting God or The Universe, but from believing stories that you were told
as a young-un. Why is difficult for believers to accept that there are those of us that do not buy these handed-down myths?
Some of us want more substantiation than an ancient tale.


I admit that the concept of a God is something that's been handed down to me from my culture. Someone also pointed out that "mushrooms are bad" was another, and that I decided to ignore that one. Good point, but "don't stick your finger in a lightswitch" is something passed down from generation to generation in my family(even before electricity!), and i'm sticking with that one. My experience has tought me that God does exist, mushrooms aren't intrisically bad, and sticking my finger in a lightswitch is bad. My point is, just because a concept has been handed down to me by my culture doesn't preclude the fact that it might just be right.

Now there's no way I can prove or explain why I believe God to be a reality, so don't even ask. I don't have the brains for it. I'm oatmeal north of the eye brows, ya heard?



--------------------
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Mp3 of the month: Park Avenue Playground - The Trip



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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #623881 - 05/01/02 10:18 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Why is difficult for believers to accept that there are those of us that do not buy these handed-down myths?

My point is, just because a concept has been handed down to me by my culture doesn't preclude the fact that it might just be right. Now there's no way I can prove or explain why I believe God to be a reality, so don't even ask.

All of that is fine LF, but did not answer my question above.



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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineTannis
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Re: Believers and non-believers [Re: Learyfan]
    #624023 - 05/01/02 02:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I understood that you were talking about the similarities.......I like it. I don't think that everyone is comfortable with the idea though........its the reason I posted some stuff lately.......

I think its important to know why you believe or disbelieve anything. Your motivation is like a rudder of a ship that steers you.



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